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Monza 2020 Leading to Reverse Grid Race Quali? (Merged)


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#1 Calum

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:52

The Canada 2010 Grand Prix had an unusual amount of tyre deg and unusual behaviour with the rubber. 

It was the race deemed exciting enough to cause those in charge to use as a blueprint for the next era of tyres, with Pirelli winning the tender.

 

Monza 2020 throws up one of the most unpredictable race wins in the last decade. It essentially had a 'reverse grid' with the red flag.

 

Based on their previous for a knee-jerk reaction (that tyre 2010 example) reckon they'll justify a "reverse grid race" qualifying format based on today's race and the excitement and anticipation it created?

 

I personally don't think it's the right way to go, but I could believe it if they said that's their plan.

 

Thoughts? 

 

 

 



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#2 noikeee

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:54

Please don't.

Genius Crofty was already lobbying for this as the race was going on. Please lock him in a room until he forgets about it.

#3 danmills

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:55

Get the season over by 4/5 mark then use the remaining races for experiments as the titles done. 



#4 HeadFirst

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:55

When you create unpredictable, it quickly becomes predictable.



#5 SonGoku

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:56

Funny, because in that case Gasly's win would never been rated and praised as it is now.

Edited by SonGoku, 06 September 2020 - 16:56.


#6 ARTGP

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:56

Get the season over by 4/5 mark then use the remaining races for experiments as the titles done. 

 

This, I don't know why Formula 1 doesn't have non-championship exhibition races. 



#7 HeadFirst

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:57

Please don't.

Genius Crofty was already lobbying for this as the race was going on. Please lock him in a room until he forgets about it.

 

To avoid having to listen to Crofty, I'd consider moving back to the USA.



#8 CountDooku

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:57

It looks like Crofty's unending genius is spreading to the wider fanbase.  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:



#9 Dalton007

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:57

I think F1 will adapt to two races per weekend. The sprint race on Saturday, Grand Prix on Sunday. It needs to change to give more drivers a chance to compete. I understand the reticence, but nothing stays the same forever. It will entice more F1 entries, perhaps, because more teams can score big points. It's worth researching to see the opportunities that could come from this.



#10 SophieB

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 16:59

When you create unpredictable, it quickly becomes predictable.

 

Yes. It’s like the difference between rain during a race and deploying sprinklers. 



#11 Red5ive

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:00

Wont happen.

 

As today showed - It would gift wins to a driver like Gasly or Stroll whilst penalising the faster drivers who on many tracks would not be able to get past 6th or 7th.

 

The very fact Croft has become obsessed with it should tell you all you need to know......


Edited by Red5ive, 06 September 2020 - 17:01.


#12 northanmonkee2

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:00

it  might work on tracks like monza  but with the likely hood of trulli train races developing because of the engine mode TD ,

at most tracks it will be 

nothing short of a farce  ,

i imagine it will be like monaco when ricciardo won without a functioning ers system 



#13 dissident

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:01

No.



#14 Anja

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:03

Let's hope not, but it would be very on brand for F1 to introduce another artificial gimmick instead of fixing its fundamental problems. And I wouldn't even be surprised - they were already pretty fixated on this idea before and this race just might give them the final push in forcing it.


Edited by Anja, 06 September 2020 - 17:10.


#15 Anderis

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:07

Nothing about reverse grid race quali but today's race reminded me the 2007-2008 era. When the pit lane is closed, a SC can spice up a race so much more as a well/badly timed pit stop can well move you 15 places up/down, not just 1-2 as with open pit lane.

 

It's kind of unfair in a way it influences race results but ultimately it leads to many more memorable races per year. In 2007-2008, races like today had a 10-20% chances of happening because SC was elevating and screwing various drivers that frequently giving us something to get excited about much more often even in seasons with a clear and uninspiring pecking order.

 

I kind of think I would like to see that again. While this has many flaws, it could be a nice cure to the current predictability of outcomes in races. :p



#16 maximilian

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:09

To avoid having to listen to Crofty, I'd consider moving back to the USA.

 

ESPN just shows the SKY broadcast, so you'd be out of luck  :wave:



#17 ANF

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:09

Funny, because in that case Gasly's win would never been rated and praised as it is now.

Very true.

#18 pikamoku

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:09

F- NO (to initial question)


Edited by pikamoku, 06 September 2020 - 17:09.


#19 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:19

No.

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#20 SenorSjon

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:20

Even Indycar doesn't do that.

#21 Myrvold

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:21

It will entice more F1 entries, perhaps, because more teams can score big points. It's worth researching to see the opportunities that could come from this.

 

Nope. There's other, more, let's call it money and FIA/FOM/Liberty issues than scoring big points that keeps us from having more entries.



#22 Leibowitz

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:27

It would be very fake and unfair which is exactly why FIA will proceed with it.

#23 Goron3

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:27

Funny, because in that case Gasly's win would never been rated and praised as it is now.


You make it sound like he overtook half the grid.

#24 mclarensmps

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:28

No. The reason things were chaotic today was because it was unpredicted. The moment teams start planning for it, it is no longer unpredictable. 



#25 ArchieTech

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:31

It's all too easy for them to see something like this and try to create the circumstances everywhere all the time.

 

I'd propose a compromise: have a mixture of formats i.e. Q1/2/3, single lap, one hour, and reverse championship qualifying races throughout the year - and don't tell the teams which one it will be until shortly before the session.



#26 Shambolic

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:32

Please don't.

Genius Crofty was already lobbying for this as the race was going on. Please lock him in a room until he forgets about it.

Five words too many at the end there.



#27 Risil

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:33

Please let's not. But I wouldn't mind a race outside the championship where some wacky formats are tried out, TOCA Shootout style.



#28 ExEd

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:41

When you create unpredictable, it quickly becomes predictable.

 

QFT 

 

The knee jerk reactions are ridiculous.0 thinking what so ever. 

Teams and drivers will adapt asap. Then its going to be more of the same.

Why would anyone would adapt their strategy or eat up tires , engine or even risk a mistake to defend against a Mercedes coming through like a rocket ? its going to pass 

next DRS anyway. 



#29 masa90

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:41

I sure hope not. That would be horrible and push the sport even further into the downward slope it is on.



#30 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:44

No, we just need different cars fighting at the front.

Outside of Hamilton, P2-P3 were very very tight today. Nothing to do with reverse grids.

#31 Afterburner

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:50

I’m not sure it would help things very much. Outside of Raikkonen sinking like a stone and Hamilton passing everyone left right and center even while on the limiter, the action at the front was stagnant until the last laps.

The problems are that the strategy is one dimensional and the only way we get wheel-to-wheel action is when one car comes zooming up out of nowhere because of DRS. Midfield teams or front runners, there is too much emphasis on not taking risks and too little ability for the cars to get close to one another.

The result was awesome, but I want a race!

#32 HeadFirst

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:54

ESPN just shows the SKY broadcast, so you'd be out of luck  :wave:

 

Really??? I forgot about the move to ESPN, that was about the time I moved to Canada. Well .... if not having an American driver in F1 hasn't killed the sport in the USA, having to listen to Crofty surely will. 



#33 Timantti

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 17:57

Reverse grid is stupid. Stop trying to make it happen, it's not going to happen.



#34 Atreiu

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 18:08

I have a feeling this reverse grid Q is inevitable.

#35 r4mses

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:08

Regarding the topic's question: hell no.



#36 pacificquay

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:12

They kept banging on about this reverse grid nonsense somewhat missing the point that Sainz started third on the grid and was running second prior to any of the unusualness 



#37 absinthedude

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:13

No



#38 absinthedude

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:16

They kept banging on about this reverse grid nonsense somewhat missing the point that Sainz started third on the grid and was running second prior to any of the unusualness 

 

You and I both noticed that. All that really happened was LewHam got a penalty (justified), Bottas started poorly and wasn't able to make progress up the field...and Max also started poorly and had PU issues. A smidgen of attrition and a couple of mistakes. Sainz was fast all weekend, as was Gasly...and Stroll is usually thereabouts in 2020. 

 

A reverse grid race to decide "qualifying" would not have given us this grand prix. 



#39 FLB

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:24

I have a feeling this reverse grid Q is inevitable.

 

Some kind of overly-complicated BoP before reverse-grid.



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#40 Heyli

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:28

I think today just proved why reverse grid is not a good idea. It's too big of an advantage.

 

It's great when it happens like this, dont get me wrong. But it should be caused by race events.



#41 apoka

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 19:35

Get the season over by 4/5 mark then use the remaining races for experiments as the titles done. 

 

+1 for trying out some ideas in non-championship or otherwise experimental races.



#42 moreland

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 20:04

No. Just no. Sure, boring races are bad, but nothing like as bad as races where there is indifference towards the outcome. I think that will be the consequence of reverse grids, drivers winning the race and the reaction being 'yeah, but that wasn't a proper win, was it?'. To be honest, that's how I feel about today's race and I find all the positive vibes about today's race and outcome rather jarring. And I don't think we need to 'just give reverse grids a try, see what it's like', you don't need to see any reverse grid races unfold to understand that a win is contrived rather than legitimate.



#43 Ivanhoe

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 20:07

Bottas would really struggle with a reverse grid.



#44 Calum

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 20:10

They kept banging on about this reverse grid nonsense somewhat missing the point that Sainz started third on the grid and was running second prior to any of the unusualness 

 

Think that's a fair observation. Croft really was pushing the reverse grid though.

 

 

I don't know if it comes across as a really popular idea when you go off of these kind of forums and into the minds of those who make up the majority of F1 viewers.



#45 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 20:11

Maybe F1 could experiment with different formats at different venues. For example, keep the standard format for 65-70% of the races and carefully choose some circuits in which a "qualifying race" in reverse championship order would make sense.



#46 F1 Mike

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 20:11

Please no

#47 JimmyClark

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 23:02

Wont happen.

As today showed - It would gift wins to a driver like Gasly or Stroll whilst penalising the faster drivers who on many tracks would not be able to get past 6th or 7th.

The very fact Croft has become obsessed with it should tell you all you need to know......


Winning a reverse race with 53+20 laps is very different from 23 laps today. Over both sessions the cream will always rise to the top. The winner of the reverse race qualifying would not be a grand prix winner, but a pole sitter.

Had the race result today been the grid, Hamilton would likely have won still (especially as the car would have been set up for racing and not running at the front conservatively).

So I'm not wholly against it.

Maybe they could do 10 reverse grid qualifying sessions a season, with the tracks selected being the ones with the most average overtakes for the last 3 years. So that will mean no Monaco or Singapore farces (and obviously the first race would be normal too, but that's no problem if its Melbourne).

#48 beachdrifter

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 23:22

Monza 2020 throws up one of the most unpredictable race wins in the last decade. It essentially had a 'reverse grid' with the red flag.

 

I thought it was just random and meaningless. And everything but exciting. Couldn't wait for it to be over. First race this season I didn't enjoy.

 

If the 10th fastest guy wins the race, it just renders the sport meaningless. 



#49 THEWALL

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 23:26

Mercedes already said no. They need agreement by all the teams. Not sure if that changes next year.

If F1 can’t or won’t produce better racing naturally, and until they do, these artificial measures are all that’s left for desperate fans.

#50 William Hunt

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 23:34

When you create unpredictable, it quickly becomes predictable.

 

What's predictable is people who are too conservative to embrace or try a change.
You're just saying what they call in Dutch a 'dooddoener' which means using a cliché argument that in se says nothing but with the goal to kill any debate. It's a cheap way to stop a discussion.

 

The cliché you used is also untrue since many unpredictable measures can be taken that stay unpredictable.

My best argument is: hasn't F1 been predictable the past 10-20 years? if the answer is yes then change is clearly needed.

 

 

 


Edited by William Hunt, 07 September 2020 - 16:40.