114 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Motorsport.com
@Motorsport
8m
Norris lashes out at "stupid" rule that allows drivers to change tyres during a red flag #F1
 
https://t.co/wyPzwYnsjV?amp=1
 

"The only reason I think I was not on the podium today was because Stroll benefited from a free pitstop which is a bit of a stupid rule because they get it for free, and they don't deserve it in many ways," Norris told Sky F1.
"I think it should be taken out. I think we had the two examples, we've got Gasly who boxed before, and he was ahead with the red flag. And he was there, so that was fair, you can't do anything about that.
"But for someone who just hasn't boxed, they just gained 24 seconds doing nothing. He should still have to pit, it's his fault they haven't boxed yet. You can get lucky by doing by what Pierre did, but that's I think just fair play.
"But the one of not having to box and getting to use that mandatory pitstop, which they didn't really do, is a thing which I don't think is right."

 

 

[Arundo]

Yeah I was a bit suprised that is allowed, not really fair you need to make a pitstop to change to a different compound in a race atleast everyone should then make one pitstop.

[cpbell]

Motorsport.com
@Motorsport
8m
Norris lashes out at "stupid" rule that allows drivers to change tyres during a red flag #F1
 
https://t.co/wyPzwYnsjV?amp=1
 

Both are slices of good fortune, and the time difference between pitting under SC and changing tyres during a race stoppage isn't surely going to be that different by the time the strategies work through.  I suppose it's more that it feels wrong somehow to have a situation where a driver doesn't have to stop during the race itself.  Is the practical difference between stopping under SC and changing tyres during a race stoppage any greater than between green flag and SC, I wonder?

Edited by cpbell, 07 September 2020 - 08:53.

[Beri]

Allowing to work on the cars during a red flag situation is beyond me. Mercedes also fixed the cooling issues of Bottas during the break. Annoying..

[Rediscoveryx]

I suppose there was some vague safety concern at play when the rule was created (possibly with the assumption that red flags and changeable weather correlate).

 

Could be easily mended by stipulating that drivers can change tyres (and breach Parc Fermé) during a red flag at the cost of a stop/go penalty once the race gets under way.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 07 September 2020 - 08:54.

[Gareth]

I think the perceived "unfairness" was exacerbated by the combination of the SC, pitlane being closed and then quickly a red flag. Just overall a very unusual situation.

 

Gasly benefited from the SC plus closed pitlane, as it reversed the usual position (pitting just before an SC is normally a disaster, whereas here it was the lucky move).

 

Stroll seemed really lucky, having not taken the opportunity to pit under the SC.

 

But then if you imagine a situation where you just have an immediate red flag in the pit stop window, and let's say everyone had pitted bar Stroll who was running long, and there's a red flag - is it really "fair" to say to Stroll he can't change his tyres, and must take a pitstop shortly post-restart that puts him in a similar position to where Hamilton ended up after his stop go?

 

Basically there is no "fair" way to do it re: tyre changes under a red flag. All F1 can do, I think, is minimise their usage as far as is reasonably possible whilst paying full respect to the requirements of safety.

[dissident]

Let's look at the other side of the coin:

 

- suppose the red flag is due to a Brazil 2003 type situation and someone has to drive over debris and gets a puncture? Should they be penalized for that? I don't think so.

 

Of course one option would be to allow everyone to change tyres if there are debris on the track, but honestly I'm OK with the rule as it is. It's simple and the same for everyone.

[Jbleroi]

changing tires under a safety car is also not "fair" in that perspective...

but lets say that it is starting to rain with half the grid still on slicks and one driver shunts off causing a redflag.. should the drivers on slicks being send out again on slicks even if it keeps raining.. that is not safe either.. 

there are always winners and losers in these kind of situations. Stroll/RP took a gamble by not pitting under the MAG  safety car and this time they got rewarded/lucky

[Arundo]

Let's look at the other side of the coin:

 

- suppose the red flag is due to a Brazil 2003 type situation and someone has to drive over debris and gets a puncture? Should they be penalized for that? I don't think so.

 

Of course one option would be to allow everyone to change tyres if there are debris on the track, but honestly I'm OK with the rule as it is. It's simple and the same for everyone.

 

I`m fine with that but there is a rule you need to switch compounds and because of that do atleast one pitstop.

So switching because of debri is fine, but the mandatory pitstop should still be done. 

 

But then again this will probably not happen any time soon so I dont care actually.
Good for Stroll, shame for Norris. 

[PlatenGlass]

Didn't Gasly also change tyres from hard to medium under the stoppage? So although he'd already made a stop he still got a second free stop.

But as has been said, there doesn't really seem to be a fair way to do it. I remember that Monaco race in about 2011 that Vettel won where he was arguably saved by the free tyre change as well.

[kernel]

Meh. Norris would be singing a different tune had he been in Stroll's shoes.

Rules are the rules.

[Heyli]

I`m fine with that but there is a rule you need to switch compounds and because of that do atleast one pitstop.

So switching because of debri is fine, but the mandatory pitstop should still be done. 

 

But then again this will probably not happen any time soon so I dont care actually.
Good for Stroll, shame for Norris. 

I completely agree with Norris. Of course you get lucky with a SC as well, but at least you still have to make the pitstop then.

 

just make the rule similar like for Qualy. If there's a reason they're allowed to switch the tyres, but within the same compound. 

[PayasYouRace]

This isn't a new thing. That's just how it works under red flags. They're pretty rare situations and sometimes it benefits you and sometimes it doesn't. It's far more common that drivers do their mandatory compound change under SC or VSC which also gives them a huge advantage over those who changed under green. Sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Marklar]

Stroll and Gasly being forced to pit after a SC is just as unfair, it would basically be like a stop and go penalty.

 

There are many things that arent fair in F1. You just have to accept that.

[Arundo]

Didn't Gasly also change tyres from hard to medium under the stoppage? So although he'd already made a stop he still got a second free stop.

But as has been said, there doesn't really seem to be a fair way to do it. I remember that Monaco race in about 2011 that Vettel won where he was arguably saved by the free tyre change as well.

 

I think alot of teams switched tyres during the red flag yes. 

[Gambelli]

I think both sides of the coin have been presented here very well, I am leaning towards not allowing tyre changes under red flag myself

[JeePee]

I think it's okay. Gives us a nice little sprint race with everyone back on full power.

 

Rarely happens in the dry anyway.

[Arundo]

There are many things that arent fair in F1. You just have to accept that.

 

O yeah I do, this is a minor minor thing.

Lots of other stuff F1 needs to adress, lets just say some got luckily yesterday and leave it at that.

I would have loved to see or Bottas or Verstappen to make a dent in the lead of Hamilton but yeah...

[Muppetmad]

Fundamentally, red flags tend to emerge in two circumstances: when an accident has occurred requiring repairs to the circuit/cleaning of the circuit, and when the weather does not allow running. In both cases, the need to change tyres could be for safety reasons: running over debris on circuit may have caused a puncture, or a change of weather during a red flag period may require a change of tyres. Some will be able to exploit the system, like in the situation that played out yesterday, but I'd rather keep the system as it is.

Edited by Muppetmad, 07 September 2020 - 09:08.

[Augurk]

Everytime I see this happen I get angered by it, it feels wrong. But then I think (or read about it on this forum  ) that the opposite - being forced to pit right after the field has been bunched up again - is also extremely unfair. 

Not sure which is more unfair so I guess go with the option that at least provides a bit of a safety cushion. 

[Hati]

Basically there is no "fair" way to do it re: tyre changes under a red flag. All F1 can do, I think, is minimise their usage as far as is reasonably possible whilst paying full respect to the requirements of safety.

Yes there is. When red flag is waived all drivers drive to pit (If situation for red flag prevents that they will drive to grid from where they are moved to pit when it's cleared) and cars can't be serviced there. Only exception may be weather conditions if they change during red flag period, then change of tyre type is allowed (not from soft to hard but from soft to wet). When race continues drivers will be released with same gaps they had before red flag (stewards determine point where situation that caused red flag started to affect times and use that, if more precise time cannot be determined, situation at the end of previous lap will be used). If someone need to do any work in car he can do that but can leave pit box only after all other cars have exited pit lane.

 

(Imho this is what should be used instead of safety car too.)

[Hati]

Not sure which is more unfair

Situation where you get undeserved advantage over others is more unfair.

[Risil]

Safety cars/red flags during the pit stop window are a nightmare, generally.

 

Somebody remind me, in Indycar I'm pretty sure you can't work on the cars during a red flag (although boundaries are frequently pushed). Can you change tyres?

[Risil]

I think we should also say that the other reason Norris wasn't on the podium was that he couldn't pass Stroll on the track. Which wasn't necessarily his fault, but that's racing for you.

[Augurk]

Situation where you get undeserved advantage over others is more unfair.

More unfair than getting an undeserved disadvantage over others (which gives others an unfair advantage...)?

I wouldn't be able to make that judgement call. 

[ensign14]

A red flag should be what it used to be - a temporary interruption before continuing the race under the same conditions.  Nobody should be allowed near the cars, if they're worried about damage then take a pitstop in the race, as they would have had to do had there not been a red flag.

 

It should also make the race a two-parter with aggregate times.  Having the pre-red section of the race reduced to a glorified qualifying session was one of the worst of the many stupid moves done under Mosley's FIA.  Pandering to the Great Unwashed when there was no need to.

 

So, allowing Stroll to change tyres, and gain 30 seconds on the field, was rampantly unfair. 

[Augurk]

I suppose the aggregate time system would take away any disadvantage for not being able to change tires or work on the car. 

 

However with it being tougher to follow especially for the casual viewer and the fact that it takes away the possibility of added excitement I don't think they will ever bring that back. 

 

Let's be honest - F1 needed this upset result badly and it wouldn't have happened with aggregate times. 

[Baddoer]

Norris lashes out at "stupid" rule that allows drivers to change tyres during a red flag #F1

To reprise: if a rule does cost you and benefit others it's stupid.

 

Nothing new here.

Edited by Baddoer, 07 September 2020 - 09:35.

[ensign14]

But then if you imagine a situation where you just have an immediate red flag in the pit stop window, and let's say everyone had pitted bar Stroll who was running long, and there's a red flag - is it really "fair" to say to Stroll he can't change his tyres, and must take a pitstop shortly post-restart that puts him in a similar position to where Hamilton ended up after his stop go?

 

Yeah, it's a balancing exercise.  I think though it's fairer to have a no-changes-red-flag because a) it is the logical consequence of what a red flag is and b) changing under a red flag is a much greater advantage than bunching up the field is a disadvantage.  And not allowing changes under red stops being an issue AT ALL if they go back to aggregate times.  Dropping to the back of the field on the road does not also mean dropping to the back of the field on elapsed time, unless there's been a safety car just before the red.

 

But it goes back to the whole safety car debate; the same as a late race 5s penalty for a minor infringement becomes crippling if the race then ends under yellow.  Imagine that deciding a championship.  (Especially if the yellow is caused by a team-mate of the driver who benefits.)  VSC is always better from a competitive perspective.  With the standard of F1 drivers, it ought to be just as safe as SC as well.

[ensign14]

However with it being tougher to follow especially for the casual viewer and the fact that it takes away the possibility of added excitement I don't think they will ever bring that back. 

I really don't think it is tougher to follow.  After all, there are 5s/10s penalties applied now, and people can keep track of those.  We have graphics and so on to explain what the aggregate gaps are.

 

On top of which, Japan 1994 was far, far, far more exciting because of the aggregate time.  As Murray says, catching is one thing, passing is another.  But not on aggregate time, we knew Hill couldn't put in a defensive drive to stop Schumacher passing, he had to outdrive him on the track.  Made it far more tense.

[dweller23]

Monaco 2011 was probably the only time I was upset about that rule, especially that most of fans (and even commentators) did not know about this. It robbed us of a great finish. Yesterday was expected, so not a big deal.

[PayasYouRace]

The timing information would easily be able to cope with aggregate times. That's not an issue. The issue I do have with it is that it turns a race into a time trial. Suddenly, battles for position are meaningless. It would be like setting the cars out at 1 minute intervals and seeing who can complete the distance fasted.

 

 

On top of which, Japan 1994 was far, far, far more exciting because of the aggregate time.  As Murray says, catching is one thing, passing is another.  But not on aggregate time, we knew Hill couldn't put in a defensive drive to stop Schumacher passing, he had to outdrive him on the track.  Made it far more tense.

 

I'm not sure that actually increased the excitement of it. Rather than a battle for position, it became a qualifying session.

[Zoe]

I was surprised to see that changing tires is perfectly OK, but then those are the rules.

 

I feel it is the same luck or no luck as with everything else in motor racing. Some win with a safety car, some lose. If you have a puncture just before the pit entry or the start/finish line, you are lucky, if you have just passed the pit entry, you are out of luck.

 

It may be hard to swallow in the heat of the moment if bad luck hits your favourite driver, but that's life.

[cpbell]

Yes there is. When red flag is waived all drivers drive to pit (If situation for red flag prevents that they will drive to grid from where they are moved to pit when it's cleared) and cars can't be serviced there. Only exception may be weather conditions if they change during red flag period, then change of tyre type is allowed (not from soft to hard but from soft to wet). When race continues drivers will be released with same gaps they had before red flag (stewards determine point where situation that caused red flag started to affect times and use that, if more precise time cannot be determined, situation at the end of previous lap will be used). If someone need to do any work in car he can do that but can leave pit box only after all other cars have exited pit lane.

 

(Imho this is what should be used instead of safety car too.)

How do you arrange for drivers to leave their pit boxes, especially when there are two cars in each at exeactly the same intervals (to the 1000th of a second) as they were at the completion of the lap prior to the red flag?

[cpbell]

More unfair than getting an undeserved disadvantage over others (which gives others an unfair advantage...)?

I wouldn't be able to make that judgement call. 

To me, they feel about the same.

[FortiFord]

Let's look at the other side of the coin:

 

- suppose the red flag is due to a Brazil 2003 type situation and someone has to drive over debris and gets a puncture? Should they be penalized for that? I don't think so.

 

Of course one option would be to allow everyone to change tyres if there are debris on the track, but honestly I'm OK with the rule as it is. It's simple and the same for everyone.

 

You can always add exceptions to the rule. 

 

Just like drivers who qualify for Q3 are required to start the race on the tyre they used in Q2, except of they start on wet/intermediate tyres or if they can demonstrate that the tyre is damaged to the point it is a safety concern. the same kind of rules should apply here. 

[Lights]

Meh. Norris would be singing a different tune had he been in Stroll's shoes.

 

I really doubt that. Not Norris. This guy is so honest he'd at least have called himself incredibly lucky. Which is something Stroll didn't do. I can actually imagine Norris saying that it felt like cheating.

[Montie]

I agree, it should not be allowed

[dissident]

Monaco 2011 was probably the only time I was upset about that rule, especially that most of fans (and even commentators) did not know about this. It robbed us of a great finish. Yesterday was expected, so not a big deal.

 

Oh yeah, I remember being livid back then.

[noikeee]

I did think it was very weird and a bit unfair that we have a rule that says "you have to use 2 tyre compounds", which effectively mandates a pitstop, but then you're allowed to complete a race without a pitstop. 

 

Speaking of Stroll, he lost a race win with a bad restart.

[Retrofly]

I mean, Norris could have been on the podium if he qualified higher an drove faster.

[Kalmake]

Few years back there was a suggestion of having a standing start after every SC that got scrapped because of tyres. It's too dangerous with heavily worn tyres.

 

Having cautions randomize the results so much is not inevitable. Most obviously standing restart is for no other reason than the "show". Technology already used with VSC would even allow returning gaps (approximately) to what they were before red flag/SC. Advantage of pitting under (V)SC could be neutralized by adjusting pit lane speed limit. But what rule makers want is more randomization.

[Fastcake]

As I said on another thread, it’s not so much a rule that allows you to work on the car during red flags but the absence of rule saying you cannot.

The red flag rules precede the use two different tyre compound rules. It never used to be an issue. Although changing the regulations has been talked about a few years ago now it is one, red flags in the dry are rare, and they have only interferes with individual drivers race strategy on a few occasions.

Perhaps they’ll finally change the rules for next year now. Which I must admit, I had previously thought they’d already done.

[SenorSjon]

The timing information would easily be able to cope with aggregate times. That's not an issue. The issue I do have with it is that it turns a race into a time trial. Suddenly, battles for position are meaningless. It would be like setting the cars out at 1 minute intervals and seeing who can complete the distance fasted.

 

 

I'm not sure that actually increased the excitement of it. Rather than a battle for position, it became a qualifying session.

 

Well, my live timing app couldn't work out the tires anymore. 

 

1) I don't get why we had a standing start again. Usually it is a SC-restart after a red flag. At least the ones I remember (Brazil 2016, Canada 2011).

2) i thought the rule was changed after Monaco 2011 to only change tires in case of punctures or weather changes. 

 

I think you should only be able to cool the car, but not work on it during a red flag.

[ensign14]

The timing information would easily be able to cope with aggregate times. That's not an issue. The issue I do have with it is that it turns a race into a time trial. Suddenly, battles for position are meaningless. It would be like setting the cars out at 1 minute intervals and seeing who can complete the distance fasted.

 

You do know that is literally how Grand Prix racing started?

[Button4life]

Well, my live timing app couldn't work out the tires anymore.

1) I don't get why we had a standing start again. Usually it is a SC-restart after a red flag. At least the ones I remember (Brazil 2016, Canada 2011).
2) i thought the rule was changed after Monaco 2011 to only change tires in case of punctures or weather changes.

I think you should only be able to cool the car, but not work on it during a red flag.

Those races has a SC restart because the track was wet. After a red flag there’s always a standing restart when it’s dry

[Currahee]

Nothing wrong with the rule imo. Some gain from it and some lose.

[TomNokoe]

Those races has a SC restart because the track was wet. After a red flag there’s always a standing restart when it’s dry

Isn't it because of a new regulation that came in around 2018?

The same regulation that gave us a standing start at Hockenheim last year.

[pdac]

I've always been of the opinion that the pits should be closed the moment the safety car is deployed. I also agree that the cars should not be worked on at all during a red-flag situation. These are pauses in the actual race, they should not be opportunities to change things for free.

[Clatter]

I mean, Norris could have been on the podium if he qualified higher an drove faster.

 

Something he has already said himself.