101 replies to this topic

[darvi]

Is it only me that's getting fed up with Christian Horner telling every other team how they should operate, rather than getting to the bottom of Red Bull's own performance issues? He claims to have the best designer, the best driver and a great engine from Honda, so maybe the weak link in the chain is the management team?

[tom]

Cyril is that you?

I havent noticed Horner being any more outspoken about other teams lately.

[Jordan44]

Horner is bad, but Marko is even worse.

He said that the engine mode rules were going to rebalance power and that the championship was therefore wide open. Yet it's done anything but.

Both of them are an embarassment to the brand. However Mateschitz is very much the same type of character. The management of Red Bull is a dated old boy's club that are out of touch with reality.

[Arundo]

Yeah me neither, actually see drivers and teammembers from some other teams target the team of Horner lately.

[Marklar]

pls they provide half of the entertainment nowadays. Protect them at all costs

[fed up]

The team is second in the constructors and their driver 3rd in the WCC. Honda has 2 wins this season so far, second only to the all conquering Mercs.

 

Change of management? Knee and jerk springs to mind.

[Arundo]

O the topic title changes, ok my thoughts about Redbull management

 

The biggest thing they do wrong imo is that they are conservative in their choices:

- They keep on using the aero concept which might not be the best anymore.

- They keep on insisting they want to only get drivers out of their own stable while there might be better options out there to move the team forward. 

Edited by Arundo, 07 September 2020 - 09:22.

[Risil]

O the topic title changes, ok my thoughts about Redbull management

 

I thought this might give everyone more of a clue on what they were getting into!

 

I don't think Red Bull are at an obvious crisis point but since 2014 it's been a win here and there and zero championship challenges.

[Jordan44]

The team is second in the constructors and their driver 3rd in the WCC. Honda has 2 wins this season so far, second only to the all conquering Mercs.

Change of management? Knee and jerk springs to mind.

You mean the very minimum that would be expected of a team with their budget? Second is absolutely nothing to shout about given Ferrari's situation. Red Bull would have even likely been third best still without the engine TD.

Companies always measure in progress - Red Bull haven't made any. They're still making the same errors they were making 3 years ago. Slow start, don't understand aero platform, fall to a distant position in the championships.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over & expecting different results. The biggest progress in that team over the winter came from Honda and not the Milton Keynes factory.

Edited by Jordan44, 07 September 2020 - 09:27.

[Augurk]

I suppose at the very least Mateschitz should ask a full report on what in the world the 2019-2022 R&D budget was spent on. 

It sure as hell wasn't making the car faster. 

 

Did a couple of senior personnel suddenly start driving in more expensive cars or buy new houses or something? 

[Quickshifter]

Redbull minus Max is definitely big crisis. Max is keeping them afloat. I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that without Max, Mclaren would have been up there fighting with Redbull for third. Just imagine two Albons in that team and you get where i am getting at. 

 

Max  and Jos are not idiots.They know there are far too many issues to fix and i am sure they are opening channels everywhere across the grid as  in 2022 you could find some serious contenders in Renault and Mclaren with Mercedes power, especially with Lewis moving on most likely in couple of years or at maximum three. Obviously a Mercedes drive is the one Max is angling at but  i am referring to the usual question which people ask, if  he does not get a Mercedes drive then where is he going to go.

Edited by Quickshifter, 07 September 2020 - 09:36.

[Requiem84]

If we look at the big 3 teams, we see more or less the following (a bit simplified, but still):

 

Ferrari: internal blame culture -> people afraid to create new (legal) concepts in designing / ways of working

Red Bull: external blame culture -> laying the blame outside of RB: not performing good enough is the result of externa rules / situations -> RB nog criticial enough towards their own processes

Mercedes: open culture, no blame culture -> staff feels free to try things and come up with new ideas which may or may not work

[Broekschaap]

I actually like Horner. Don't know him personally ofcourse. But for someone managing in a very competitive and political environement i think he is doing well in his spublic appereances. Also the team culture doesn't look very toxic from the outside. Ofcourse Red Bull is not winning as much at the moment as i personally would like but with the dominance of Mercedes that seems impossible. And a bit offtopic but for me the same goes for others like for example Abiteboul.Doing a great job in a very competitive environement.

[Arundo]

To add, they might need to stop shouting from the roofs that they are going to challenge.

Maybe wait a bit to shout that next year, see if you actually built a car which is capable to do that. 

This year they would challenge Mercedes according to them, but sofar they have not really done that.

[shure]

If we look at the big 3 teams, we see more or less the following (a bit simplified, but still):

 

Ferrari: internal blame culture -> people afraid to create new (legal) concepts in designing / ways of working

Red Bull: external blame culture -> laying the blame outside of RB: not performing good enough is the result of externa rules / situations -> RB nog criticial enough towards their own processes

Mercedes: open culture, no blame culture -> staff feels free to try things and come up with new ideas which may or may not work

I'd agree that Ferrari have a blame culture, but don't really see that much difference  between Mercedes and Red Bull overall.  Both appear to have a fairly relaxed culture internally.  Both management aren't averse to throwing digs at other teams, either.  Mercedes of course don't need to blame anyone else for their shortcomings as they are ahead, but it's not like they never do (eg this weekend when Toto blamed Mercedes not waring Lewis in time on the fact that the pit communication was  "on page 4 of the FIA communications").   I think they are reasonably alike

[Lights]

Marko should call it a day before he goes completely senile. And I have a feeling that his influence on the team might actually hurt Horner, who I think is a great team principle. Sure, his sh*t stirring is a bit over the top sometimes, but to an extent that's also just part of the sport. For the rest he's smart, calm and collected, and just like Wolff he's very suited to the job.

 

Marko is the one who shouts all the stupid stuff about challenging Mercedes, winning a # of races, and the engine modes ban favoring them. It would be better for the team and for Max if Marko left. His young driver program is dead anyway.

Edited by Lights, 07 September 2020 - 11:25.

[Fisico54]

Marko should call it a day before he goes completely senile. And I have a feeling that his influence on the team might actually hurt Horner, who I think he is a great team principle. Sure, his sh*t stirring is a bit over the top sometimes, but to an extent that's also just part of the sport. For the rest he's smart, calm and collected, and just like Wolff he's very suited to the job.

Marko is the one who shouts all the stupid stuff about challenging Mercedes, winning a # of races, and the engine modes ban favoring them. It would be better for the team and for Max if Marko left. His young driver program is dead anyway.

How is the young driver programme dead - Tsunoda, Lawson, Vips all look like talents. I'd agree Marko is overly aggressive and prone to making ridiculous statements but he's not going anywhere as he's close to Mateschitz.

[Anja]

I'm kinda under impression that the Red Bull people think it's still 2010-2013 and the fact that they're not winning is caused by some temporary issues and no fault of their own. They're supposed to be winning! And they totally would, if only not for that Renault engine / engine party modes / whatever they come up with any given month.

Edited by Anja, 07 September 2020 - 10:28.

[Muppetmad]

An unpopular point of view perhaps, but I think Red Bull's management are stuck in the past. Not only do they think that the return of the Vettel days are just around the corner, but it's always somebody else's fault that they are not there already. Whether it's the Renault engine, or various regulations, it's never Red Bull that needs to improve - indeed, Red Bull are always willing to say how good they're going to be, but then don't learn the lessons when they don't meet those expectations. They have a junior programme with incredible talent, but have mismanaged it over the years to the extent that the second Red Bull seat is a toxic no-go area and Alpha Tauri is filled with two drivers who weren't deemed good enough to cut it in the big team.

 

Red Bull have fallen victim to their own hype, and thus have become style over substance. They talk a big game, but don't deliver, and that's what allows a team like Mercedes to continue to dominate.

 

Edit: Anja beat me to it, and far more succinctly!

Edited by Muppetmad, 07 September 2020 - 10:27.

[SenorSjon]

Redbull minus Max is definitely big crisis. Max is keeping them afloat. I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that without Max, Mclaren would have been up there fighting with Redbull for third. Just imagine two Albons in that team and you get where i am getting at. 

 

Max  and Jos are not idiots.They know there are far too many issues to fix and i am sure they are opening channels everywhere across the grid as  in 2022 you could find some serious contenders in Renault and Mclaren with Mercedes power, especially with Lewis moving on most likely in couple of years or at maximum three. Obviously a Mercedes drive is the one Max is angling at but  i am referring to the usual question which people ask, if  he does not get a Mercedes drive then where is he going to go.

 

Imagine a Gasly-Albon line-up this year. That would look horrendous.

[Risil]

I don't know what to think about Gasly anymore!

[dissident]

Over promising and under delivering has been the norm at Red Bull since... 2016-2017?

[Risil]

I'm yet to sprout wings from my shoulder blades, let alone become more fun and attractive in mixed company, so I'd say Red Bull have been over promising since they started selling cans of the stuff.

Perhaps it's the Jägermeister's fault.

[AnR]

Anybody really thinks that Red Bull would not been able to challenge Merc if they had an equal or perhaps a tenth or two slower engine? Not me

[r4mses]

I'm kinda under impression that the Red Bull people think it's still 2010-2013 and the fact that they're not winning is caused by some temporary issues and no fault of their own. They're supposed to be winning! And they totally would, if only not for that Renault engine / engine party modes / whatever they come up with any given month.

 

Idd. Feels like they're stuck with their "we got the best chassis, our engine just sucks, so what can we do?"-story which hinders their development.

[r4mses]

Anybody really thinks that Red Bull would not been able to challenge Merc if they had an equal or perhaps a tenth or two slower engine? Not me

 

I do not think they would. They just want to make everyone believe.I doubt it's just the engine. Afterall, both VER and ALB complain about the handling... you don't smash into the barriers on you way to the grid because the engine is crap, let alone ALB's driving all season long.

Edited by r4mses, 07 September 2020 - 10:54.

[Jordan44]

Anybody really thinks that Red Bull would not been able to challenge Merc if they had an equal or perhaps a tenth or two slower engine? Not me

There's no way they would be challenging Mercedes right now if they had the same engine.

Honda definitely found more power, that is quite clear just observing as the season goes on.

However their pace gain from track to track over last year is pretty much nothing. The weakest part of the RB16 right now is the chassis.

[renzmann]

The RBR management does look like an old boys' network. Newey, Horner and Marko don't really question themselves, as far as I (we?) can tell.

 

It really shows on track, too. A bad season can happen. But this season is bad for the same reasons past seasons went awry. Windtunnel issues? Not "understanding" the car? Updates that don't work? Balance issues? Not being able to unlock winter testing's potential on other tracks? No DAS-like innovations to surprise competition? Not being able to quickly identify weak spots of a car and solve it? All of this stuff resulting in RBR not being there at the start of the season? We've seen these patterns for at least 5 years now. It really is a massive management failure that it keeps on repeating.

[Requiem84]

What was the last great (aero / other) innovation Red Bull brought to F1?

[FLB]

An unpopular point of view perhaps, but I think Red Bull's management are stuck in the past. Not only do they think that the return of the Vettel days are just around the corner, but it's always somebody else's fault that they are not there already. Whether it's the Renault engine, or various regulations, it's never Red Bull that needs to improve - indeed, Red Bull are always willing to say how good they're going to be, but then don't learn the lessons when they don't meet those expectations. They have a junior programme with incredible talent, but have mismanaged it over the years to the extent that the second Red Bull seat is a toxic no-go area and Alpha Tauri is filled with two drivers who weren't deemed good enough to cut it in the big team.

 

Red Bull have fallen victim to their own hype, and thus have become style over substance. They talk a big game, but don't deliver, and that's what allows a team like Mercedes to continue to dominate.

 

Edit: Anja beat me to it, and far more succinctly!

Which is why I think what happened yesterday is going to be a very big wake-up call for them. A good one.

[PlayboyRacer]

I'd agree Marko is overly aggressive and prone to making ridiculous statements but he's not going anywhere as he's close to Mateschitz.

There is your problem. Marko talks out of his arse because he knows he can. Mateschitz has him there as his personal eyes and ears, Marko is basically untouchable.

[Goron3]

People need to remember that the hardest challenge for a team like Red Bull when they had an underperforming Renault PU was the same challenge that McLaren had with an underperforming Honda PU; you become unaware of other potential problems within the team, because the goalposts continue to move. Mercedes have a raw pace advantage over RB, but that's because they've been consistently developing a winning machine.

 

Red Bull have spent the entire hybrid era playing catch up (and still are to a degree) whilst the goalposts continue to move.

[UltimateLegacy]

Ive been saying this all week; Matechitz needs to have a management reshuffle and rethinking of management structure to not succumb to institutional inertia that will inevitably lead to stagnation and one of the up and coming mid field teams jumping them. It has happened to Mclaren and itll happen to Redbull if they dont do anything. Like any F1 drivers, managers performance vary throughout their careers. Maybe Marko, Horner or Adrian are getting rusty and someone better should be at the helm. If not, I doubt theyll keep Max, and right now, the fact that the team is centred around Max is their Achilles heel. If Toto opens door for Max next year, Max will jump because of Redbulls broken promises and performance. That would be disaster for Matechitz and the Redbull brand.

Edited by UltimateLegacy, 07 September 2020 - 11:56.

[FLB]

 

Red Bull: external blame culture -> laying the blame outside of RB: not performing good enough is the result of externa rules / situations -> RB nog criticial enough towards their own processes

 

 

You are 100% correct in your diagnosis IMHO and you have put your finger on something I couldn't verbalise about Red Bull.

 

What you're describing is called in management books 'Victim Mentality'.

Edited by FLB, 07 September 2020 - 11:43.

[ExEd]

If we look at the big 3 teams, we see more or less the following (a bit simplified, but still):

Ferrari: internal blame culture -> people afraid to create new (legal) concepts in designing / ways of working
Red Bull: external blame culture -> laying the blame outside of RB: not performing good enough is the result of externa rules / situations -> RB nog criticial enough towards their own processes
Mercedes: open culture, no blame culture -> staff feels free to try things and come up with new ideas which may or may not work

Being part of my study and work , I couldn’t agree more with this.
At least that’s the clear indication of the working environment as perceived by everyone else. Spot on.

One could argue that Merc wouldn’t have the need to alter their management style because they enjoy success but maybe it’s the other way around and that’s the reason they are successful in the first place.
It strikes me how they have been able to keep all their key stuff in place for so long, I’m sure RB and Ferrari wouldn’t mind allocate a few bucks around to bring in Merc fresh blood in the ranks.
It’s been 6 , 7 years now and it’s common in all business that lead and talented stuff with ambition to move around. Yet here it’s not a case.
Not sure about RB but I know for fact that a Ferrari type of environment is incredibly hard for new people coming from outside to thrive. Fear of failure creates toxicity.

Edited by ExEd, 07 September 2020 - 11:57.

[Cyanide]

Horner is bad, but Marko is even worse.

He said that the engine mode rules were going to rebalance power and that the championship was therefore wide open. Yet it's done anything but.

Both of them are an embarassment to the brand. However Mateschitz is very much the same type of character. The management of Red Bull is a dated old boy's club that are out of touch with reality.

 

Such over-reactive statements are the plague of this forum. 

 

Horner and Marko have been running the show at Red Bull with their 4 titles and are currently the second power behind a championship monopoly called Mercedes. And they are an embarrassment to the brand? 

 

Everybody is suddenly a brilliant brand manager, it's a mystery why these teams don't visit fan forums to do some hiring. 

[hodgy21]

What was the last great (aero / other) innovation Red Bull brought to F1?

 

They've got some really nice matt paint.

[Augurk]

At least last year Red Bull was the only team who (as far as we can tell) fairly took the fight to Mercedes. Also this year that has been the case. As I've stated before I think (part of) Mercedes' advantage is locked-in due to the consistency of the rules - and changes affecting their direct competitors. Besides that there is a global automotive conglomerate behind them with an R&D department that wipes any F1 team off the table, so it might very well just be an impossible task to actually challenge Mercedes. So I don't think they've done a particularly bad job over the years in the hybrid era.

The things you can start asking questions about is:

- why is the car slower than last year's car?

- why do they keep getting correlation issues between track data and wind tunnel/cfd?

- why do they keep starting years with mediocre performance/issues of understanding (partly the same question as the 2nd one of course)

- is their current "2nd driver" strategy the right one?

 

Of course ultimately they fall under the responsibility of the top men at RBR, but I wouldn't be too sure any other set of men would do any better. Still it wouldn't hurt if they could get some new insights to the team. 

[OvDrone]

I don't wanna go over some forum rule of sensible conduct but I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in that dreadful Albon thread an hour before this one was made:

 

OvDrone, on 07 Sept 2020 - 10:46, said:

Red Bull Management are the true poison.

 

They ruined Coulthard's retirement announcement, left Bourdais out to dry, completely failed to support Webber's bid for the 2010 crown, unloaded on Buemi and Alguersuari for practice blunders, ditched Da Costa without warning, made JEV resentful, went full GoT on Kvyat, overlooked Sainz, pushed Ricciardo away, nearly destroyed Gasly's career and now Albon is just the latest casualty.

 

Yeah, ya got Vettel and Verstappen, but does that justify all the rest ? To my eyes, mind and heart - **** No.

 

The only people I have respect for there are Dietrich, the mechanics, Newey and the engineering / strategy teams. The management is a blight and the brand suffers for it. And their egos are too weak and frail to notice their own failures.

 

This comment is MUCH more suited here, thanks.

[Jordan44]

Such over-reactive statements are the plague of this forum.

Horner and Marko have been running the show at Red Bull with their 4 titles and are currently the second power behind a championship monopoly called Mercedes. And they are an embarrassment to the brand?

Everybody is suddenly a brilliant brand manager, it's a mystery why these teams don't visit fan forums to do some hiring.

Sure, they are second power, but they are further away to Mercedes than ever and appear to be stuck making the same mistakes they have been making for 3 years. Given the budget they have it is a complete and utter failure of their duties.

Edited by Jordan44, 07 September 2020 - 12:22.

[Mercstar]

Post 2013, RB have not even come remotely close to the Championship (finishing P2 doesn't mean its close!).

 

As many posters have mentioned above, its a culture thing, always pointing the finger elsewhere. Also a sense of disillusionment thinking they always have the best chassis etc. 

 

Honestly, its a scary thought for non merc fans, but RB & Ferrari have some way to go before they can even think about taking on Mercedes. 

 

I can also sense Max's frustration is building, he'll be starting his 7th season in F1 next yr, and so far despite apparently being a once in a generation talent, he hasn't got much to show for it.  

Edited by Mercstar, 07 September 2020 - 12:27.

[Cyanide]

Sure, they are second power, but they are further away to Mercedes than ever and appear to be stuck making the same mistakes they have been making for 3 years. Given the budget they have it is a complete and utter failure of their duties.

 

And which team is doing better, might I ask?

 

Except Mercedes, even Ferrari and McLaren are failing to live up to the task. The gap has doubled since last year, not only to Red Bull but to everybody else as well. 

 

Yeah, we get it, the almighty Brackley team is king of the mountain, while everybody else is a 'complete and utter failure'. Because obviously that's exactly how black and white the world is. 

[Jordan44]

And which team is doing better, might I ask?
 
Except Mercedes, even Ferrari and McLaren are failing to live up to the task. The gap has doubled since last year, not only to Red Bull but to everybody else as well. 
 
Yeah, we get it, the almighty Brackley team is king of the mountain, while everybody else is a 'complete and utter failure'. Because obviously that's exactly how black and white the world is. 

Ferrari have a legitimate excuse not to be up there. Red Bull do not.

The rest don't have the budget.

It's quite frankly a disaster.

[Cyanide]

Ferrari have a legitimate excuse not to be up there. Red Bull do not.

The rest don't have the budget.

It's quite frankly a disaster.

 

It's not an excuse, they are paying the price for a risk they took without having a plan B. 

 

If this competition was solely about budget, Ferrari would have won the past 10 years as well. As I said, the world is not that black and white to call everybody else an embarrassment. 

[Mercstar]

It's not an excuse, they are paying the price for a risk they took without having a plan B. 

 

If this competition was solely about budget, Ferrari would have won the past 10 years as well. As I said, the world is not that black and white to call everybody else an embarrassment. 

 

On the current grid, only RB & Ferrari have the capacity to compete with Mercedes, that they are failing miserably year after year is nothing short of an embarrassment. 

[Jordan44]

On the current grid, only RB & Ferrari have the capacity to compete with Mercedes, that they are failing miserably year after year is nothing short of an embarrassment.

Absolutely and yes, Ferrari have failed to win however they have mounted two serious title challenges. Red Bull have none since 2013. Had Ferrari had their 2019 PU this year, we'd have Red Bull sitting behind both teams.

Edited by Jordan44, 07 September 2020 - 12:36.

[AnR]

On the current grid, only RB & Ferrari have the capacity to compete with Mercedes, that they are failing miserably year after year is nothing short of an embarrassment. 

 

Everybody and their grandma knows that Merc have a huge engine advantage and have had since 2014 that they have spent $ on, that Ferrari or Honda can't match that is embarrasing, talk about blame culture....

[Jordan44]

Everybody and their grandma knows that Merc have a huge engine advantage and have had since 2014 that they have spent $ on, that Ferrari or Honda can't match that is embarrasing, talk about blame culture....

No, they simply do not. People are still stuck in 2014. It is 2020, please wake up.

[AnR]

No, they simply do not. People are still stuck in 2014. It is 2020, please wake up.

 

I think you need a reality check...

[Jordan44]

I think you need a reality check...

The reality check is that Formula 1 being an engine formula ended back in 2017 when Ferrari demonstrated they could build a title contending car against a stronger Mercedes PU. Since then, the gap to the field has only reduced further and further.