84 replies to this topic

[BRG]

https://www.motorspo...lt-meo/4869669/

 

The new Renault boss has announced that Renault's F1 team will be re-branded as Alpine from next year.  The cars will race in French racing bleu (hurrah!).  De Meo says this not a nostalgic move, but really, it is.  Up until the launch of the first turbo-charged F1 car, the Renault RS01, much of Renault's competition activities carried the Alpine name, especially in rallying, but including the Le Mans victory.  

 

We saw the brief attempt by the fantasist Tony Fernandes to merge Caterham Cars with Alpine as part of his F1 adventure, but that bore no fruit and has since been reversed with Alpine now firmly in the Renault fold.

 

Of course, the cynic in me tells me that this will allow Renault to bail out more easily when it suits them to ditch F1, but the nostalgic in me says that this is the return of a celebrated name in motor-sport. 

[Rediscoveryx]

https://www.motorspo...lt-meo/4869669/

 

The new Renault boss has announced that Renault's F1 team will be re-branded as Alpine from next year.  The cars will race in French racing bleu (hurrah!).  De Meo says this not a nostalgic move, but really, it is.  Up until the launch of the first turbo-charged F1 car, the Renault RS01, much of Renault's competition activities carried the Alpine name, especially in rallying, but including the Le Mans victory.  

 

We saw the brief attempt by the fantasist Tony Fernandes to merge Caterham Cars with Alpine as part of his F1 adventure, but that bore no fruit and has since been reversed with Alpine now firmly in the Renault fold.

 

Of course, the cynic in me tells me that this will allow Renault to bail out more easily when it suits them to ditch F1, but the nostalgic in me says that this is the return of a celebrated name in motor-sport. 

 

My first thought was close to the one expressed by the cynic in you.

 

My guess is that this rebranding could be quickly reversed if Renault's Alpine's fortunes magically take a turn for the better next year.

[SJ Lambert]

Or conversely, Kimoa Alpine.........

 

 

........I'll get my coat.

[Michael Ferner]

Full circle

 

But then again, no. We all know that the roots of today's Renault F1 team lay in the UK, Oxfordshire I think.

[2F-001]

Yes indeed, at Enstone, with Toleman; with subsequent incarnations often just referred to as "the Enstone Team".

[68targa]

When Renault launched their turbo F1 car in the 80's I seem to remember the engines were badged Renault-Gordini.  I guess Renault still own the name but do not seem to use it at all now. I would rather hear that Fernando Alonso had a storming race in his Gordini rather than Alpine   . 

[ensign14]

 

The original test mule for Renault's F1 entry was the Alpine-Renault A500.  So I suppose it is fulfilling the idea, 45 years late.

[Felix Muelas]

Of course the other ancestor that one can think about is the Alpine A350, that, as my pal Mattijs Diepraam wrote, was an unauthorized F1 study, powered by underpowered Renault-Gordini V8 sportscar engine. Tested by Mauro Bianchi at Zandvoort with disappointing results. Vetoed by Renault for having 100bhp less than the Cosworth DFV.

http://forix.autospo...pine-a350-2.jpg

Edited by Felix Muelas, 07 September 2020 - 15:13.

[sabrejet]

Yet another pointless rebranding with no respect for the name's history. If you are going to plunder your corporate heritage, then at least have the decency to apply the name to a sportscar. Oh yes - you did that already! So a successful and respected name with an illustrious history will no doubt go down as a dismal effwun failure. And Barry Boys will forever assume that Alpine (pronounced "Al - pyne") was only a piddle-poor team whilst being oblivious to 99% of its remarkable heritage.

 

So yet again, the business that is effwun takes a dump on our motorsport history (think Jaguar, Aston Martin et al).

[kayemod]

And every English-speaking commentator will irritate every French viewer/listener, or anyone who speaks French and understands the way it's pronounced, by refusing to pronounce Alpine in the correct French way as "Al-Peen".

 

The second part of Alfa Romeo should be pronounced the same as one of the names in the title of the well known Shakespeare play, but when has it ever been pronounced correctly by any English-speaking person? Until a couple of months ago, my own road car was an Alfa Romeo Giulia Veloce. They weren't a common sight in the UK, and I was occasionally asked what it was. I told them it was an Alfa Ro-Me-Oh Vel-Och-Ay, and most would appear perplexed. Then they'd twig and say something like "Ah, you mean an Alfa Ro-May-Oh!" Clearly not fluent Italian speakers, I'm not either, but I understand the basic pronunciation rules.

 

And no, I didn't replace my Alfa with an Al-Peen...

 

Edit. A bit of inadvertent gender reassignment there, only realised after I'd posted. You'd have thought I'd learned to tell the difference by this stage of my life.

Edited by kayemod, 07 September 2020 - 17:45.

[PayasYouRace]

If you’re going to pronounce it Alpeen, spell it Alpeen.

[E1pix]

We just finished an alpeen trek.

It was above timberline, in case anyone’s confused. ;-)

[Steve99]

 
The second part of Alfa Romeo should be pronounced the same as the girl's name in the well known Shakespeare play.

Alfa Juliet?

[BRG]

If you’re going to pronounce it Alpeen, spell it Alpeen.

It's French, so Alpine is spelt Alpine.  

 

However, pronunciation of the name may not be the most important issue here...

[BRG]

Alfa Juliet?

Bravo

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

The second part of Alfa Romeo should be pronounced the same as one of the names in the title of the well known Shakespeare play

 

Hmmm, I remain unconvinced of this, especially as there is footage (easily found on Youtube) of Enzo Ferrari himself pronouncing it Ro-May-Oh. It was in an interview with an Italian as well, so he wasn't saying it that way for the benefit of his audience either. But this is heading wildly off-topic.

[cpbell]

Hmmm, I remain unconvinced of this, especially as there is footage (easily found on Youtube) of Enzo Ferrari himself pronouncing it Ro-May-Oh. It was in an interview with an Italian as well, so he wasn't saying it that way for the benefit of his audience either. But this is heading wildly off-topic.

We've had this discussion before.  Rob is utterly certain that it's pronounced as in the character, but I've seen videos of Italians explaining to us Anglo-Saxons how Italian brands should be pronounced, and they use the more usual version.

 

Edited by cpbell, 07 September 2020 - 19:00.

[jtremlett]

We've had this discussion before.  Rob is utterly certain that it's pronounced as in the character, but I've seen videos of Italians explaining to us Anglo-Saxons how Italian brands should be pronounced, and they use the more usual version...

Indeed.  I have never heard an Italian pronounce it Ro-Me-Oh and that includes when visiting the Alfa Romeo museum.  Nor indeed in this excellent video (one amongst many excellent videos by Davide Cironi) about Alfa in the DTM https://www.youtube....h?v=ohPEXfm7q1M

[Doug Nye]

Alpine?  Les Bleues?  Getting away from that damn-awful yellow and black?

 

Great news.  Allez!

 

DCN

[Zoe]

What would Jean Rédélé say?

[ensign14]

Something acute.

[PayasYouRace]

It's French, so Alpine is spelt Alpine.  

 

However, pronunciation of the name may not be the most important issue here...

 

No, lack of sense of humour seems to be a bigger one.

[FLB]

What would Jean Rédélé say?

That an injustice is being repaired.

 

(Although I'm sure his first decision would be to move the team to the more appropriate Dieppe. And he'd enjoy the fact the first Grand-Prix winner from France in nearly a quarter of a century was born in his beloved Normandie)

Edited by FLB, 07 September 2020 - 23:45.

[john aston]

My wife insists it is CAPri and CLYo, and doubtless she is right, comme d'habitude.  But darn Essex way it's CaPREE innit?

 

I welcome the Alpine inititiative - I don't see it as plundering the past at all, rather ensuring that we are not forever mired in it . The nouveau A 110 is also a very welcome addition , and how nice to see a sports car weighing less than the original Range Rover .If it's good enough for Gordon Murray to have as a daily driver....

Edited by john aston, 08 September 2020 - 06:11.

[wolf sun]

But darn Essex way it's CaPREE innit?

 

 

This has always baffled me...how the hell did that come about? And how do people pronounce the Italian island after which it is named?

 

Btw, and fully off topic: My parents had an orange-with-black-vinyl-roof 2.3l MkII. Yummy.

[opplock]

Hopefully this rebranding will not be an embarrassment to Alpine owners. The aforementioned Tony Fernandez decided to rebrand his less than successful F1 team Caterham after being told he had no right to use the Lotus name. Great said some owners our cars are now associated with an F1 team. Others including myself pointed out that they had long been associated with a very successful F1 team and started telling people that the car was a Lotus, hoping they wouldn't notice the badge.  

[Alan Baker]

Indeed.  I have never heard an Italian pronounce it Ro-Me-Oh and that includes when visiting the Alfa Romeo museum.  Nor indeed in this excellent video (one amongst many excellent videos by Davide Cironi) about Alfa in the DTM https://www.youtube....h?v=ohPEXfm7q1M

An Italian doesn't pronounce it Row-Mee-Owe because their are no hard vowels in Italian. Equally there is no case in Italian of the letter E being pronounce AY (anyone for a FAYrrari). An Italian pronounces it Ro with the "o" as in hot, me with the "e" as in met, and the final "o" also as in hot. When joined together and spoken quickly this may sound to an English speakers ears as if the "e" is being pronounced AY but it isn't. The ROMAYO pronunciation has come about because people think it sounds exotic and foreign and that they are being smart with their "Italian" pronunciation. There's also the case of Maserati, which the English pronounce Maser-rarti, but should be Maser-ratty and it's not just Italian, you get people who seem to think that there's a German car called a Porsch, whereas in fact it should be Porsch-er

[Charlieman]

Sing altogether now: Bill Rootes wants me for a Sunbeam...

[sabrejet]

Wow. Talk of thread drift. For what it's worth, Gordon Murray did highlight a few shortcomings with the new A110, but I love its looks and mechanicals and would have one at the drop of a hat. Plus even if Mr Murray recognizes the car's faults, they are obviously not enough to stop him continuing to own one.

 

As for the F1 garbage, I shall thankfully be oblivious to whatever occurs, but hope for the better outcome.

[kayemod]

An Italian doesn't pronounce it Row-Mee-Owe because their are no hard vowels in Italian. Equally there is no case in Italian of the letter E being pronounce AY (anyone for a FAYrrari). An Italian pronounces it Ro with the "o" as in hot, me with the "e" as in met, and the final "o" also as in hot. When joined together and spoken quickly this may sound to an English speakers ears as if the "e" is being pronounced AY but it isn't. The ROMAYO pronunciation has come about because people think it sounds exotic and foreign and that they are being smart with their "Italian" pronunciation. There's also the case of Maserati, which the English pronounce Maser-rarti, but should be Maser-ratty and it's not just Italian, you get people who seem to think that there's a German car called a Porsch, whereas in fact it should be Porsch-er

 

 

All absolutely correct, which is what I've been trying to get across. Phonetics aren't easy to describe by writing about them as we're doing here. The middle bit of Romeo is more of an unemphasised "i" or short "e" sound, the same with the ending of Porsche, which should be an unstressed, almost swallowed "ah" or "uh", but forum nimbys will probably question that explanation as well.

 

Whatever, "Rom-ay-oh" with stress on the "ay" is an impossible pronunciation of Romeo for any non-Americanised Italian.

 

Just as there are no hard vowels in Italian, it's the same with Japanese, my toes curl when I hear almost everyone talking about the large port city in southern Honshu as "O-sah-ka". That's wrong, it's more like "Oh-sa-ka", short vowels, which is the way that the Japanese-American tennis player always pronounces her name. Spoken Japanese can sound very staccato to non-speakers, of which I hasten to add, I'm one.

[Geoff E]

Presumably, most people here pronounce the capital of France to rhyme with Harris.

 

Pretentious? Moi?

[SGM]

I wonder how different Renault's competition history would have been if Alpine had been made the competition department with full autonomy and Renault just supplied the money? Renault have always seemed to have a half hearted attitude to motorsport except perhaps as engine supplier to Williams in the 1990's. I firmly believe the A310 V6 could have won the World Rally Championship had it not been passed over in favour of the front wheel drive Renault 5 for purely corporate reasons.

[Allan Lupton]

Presumably, most people here pronounce the capital of France to rhyme with Harris.

 

Pretentious? Moi?

Like Harris Léon Laisne d'you mean?
 

[FLB]

I wonder how different Renault's competition history would have been if Alpine had been made the competition department with full autonomy and Renault just supplied the money? Renault have always seemed to have a half hearted attitude to motorsport except perhaps as engine supplier to Williams in the 1990's. I firmly believe the A310 V6 could have won the World Rally Championship had it not been passed over in favour of the front wheel drive Renault 5 for purely corporate reasons.

I disagree.

 

It wasn't half-hearted under Valéry Giscard d'Estaing and Bernard Vernier-Palliez. Renault (and France) had great international ambitions at the time. What changed everything for the then still government-owned Régie was the arrival of François Mitterrand and Bernard Hanon with him in 1981. Georges Besse was the one who named Patrick Faure to clean up the mess, before being assassinated the the radical left-wing terrorist group Action directe (who were made of four people) in 1986. Louis Schweitzer succeeded him and kept the cellule de veille (what the Americans call a skunk works) put in place by Besse going until the right time came.

 

The mid-engine R5 Turbo was RWD, but it fell against the 4WD  Audis in the long run. Röhrl still won the championship in 1982 with the 2WD Ascona and came close in 1983 with the 037, but that was... well... Röhrl    

[PayasYouRace]

Presumably, most people here pronounce the capital of France to rhyme with Harris.

 

Pretentious? Moi?

 

That last word rhyming with "toy", obviously.

[BRG]

That last word rhyming with "toy", obviously.

I believe he comes from that place on the Central line in Essex, Theydon Bois.

[Richard Jenkins]

That last word rhyming with "toy", obviously.

The recently deceased Kenyan president Daniel Arap Moi, didn't pronounce it as moi/toy or moi as in the French me but actually as Mohee.

So the lesson from this is just to pronounce anything as you want really, you'll never be correct.

[AJCee]

I believe he comes from that place on the Central line in Essex, Theydon Bois.

Passed through there countless times whilst commuting from Epping many moons ago. I always felt it would be a suitable name for a tweed-clad music hall trouper.

[Rob Ryder]

I wonder how many posts are going to be hijacked with regurgitated arguments about pronunciation?

If you scroll back to post #8 you will find something about Renault & Alpine in F1

[RCH]

I think we are missing the point on pronounciation. We call a car here in England by what we.. err... call it. Thus the Italian marque is Alfa Romayoh in England whatever they choose to call it in foreign parts. 

The French for reasons known only to themselves have different names for London (Londres) and Dover (Douvres). I've always contented that the English word for the French capital is Paris, prounouced as in Harris. A completely different word to the French Paris, prounounced Paree, they just happen to be spelt the same. I have some sympathy for my father who always spoke of Kayless... err Calais.

Back to cars, has anyone noticed Hyundai was pronounced High un die in English when the cars first arrived here but then in advertising they became Hoondee. Now they seem to have slipped back to High un die presumably because no one recognised what a Hoondee was. Many years ago we had a French "Assistante" at school who during the course of a lesson asked the class to name French cars. Simca and Panhard (I said it was long ago) went down all right but my pronounciation of Citroen had her breaking down into a massive fit of giggles. Eventually she composed herself enough to say "what do you say a big LEMON?". 

 

Now back to the subject, whilst I am pleased to see the Alpine name being honoured I feel I have to add it to the names of great sports car manufacturers, Jaguar, Aston Martin, about to have their reputations tarnished by association with F1.

[Charlieman]

Many years ago we had a French "Assistante" at school who during the course of a lesson asked the class to name French cars. Simca and Panhard (I said it was long ago) went down all right but my pronounciation of Citroen had her breaking down into a massive fit of giggles. Eventually she composed herself enough to say "what do you say a big LEMON?". 

I suggest that you weren't entirely wrong. Check the Wikipedia article on André Citroën for the origins of the family name. 

 

In most cultures, it is good mannered to have a go at pronouncing unfamiliar names in the manner of their owners'. It is unlikely that voice recordings exist for André Citroën, more possible for Nicola Romeo, in which they say the company name. Both men will have been outlived by family or business associates who might give us a clue.

[RCH]

I suggest that you weren't entirely wrong. Check the Wikipedia article on André Citroën for the origins of the family name.

Yes, I became aware of that but not at the time!
I think Andre Citroen had a sense of humour, I may be wrong but I seem to recall they produced a line of cars which was available in any colour you like, so long as it's yellow.

[kayemod]

... Many years ago we had a French "Assistante" at school who during the course of a lesson asked the class to name French cars. Simca and Panhard (I said it was long ago) went down all right but my pronounciation of Citroen had her breaking down into a massive fit of giggles. Eventually she composed herself enough to say "what do you say a big LEMON?". 

 

 

I had a very similar experience, not too surprising really as English mouths just aren't programmed to pronounce certain "foreign" sounds. I was taught French to quite a high level, but in my opinion not terribly well. Everything was about grammar and syntax, I ended up able to read a French book or newspaper, but far from confident about ordering a meal or a beer. Language teaching is much more practical these days, students should end up with an effective working knowledge of a language, in the case of French, "façon de parler", as she is spoke. In my case the subject of my French master's amusement was the way I pronounced "dimanche", he had me repeating it for the rest of the class, I just couldn't manage the honking sound of the "....anche", though my classmates couldn't see the joke any more than I could.  Correct pronunciation of Citroën is similarly difficult for non-natives. My father spoke hardly any French, and his pronunciation was terrible, when he tried to say Citroën, it came out something like "Cit-ronnal", he just couldn't manage the second half, that honking sound again. We used to tell him that if a French immigration officer heard him speak that word, they'd turn him back at Calais.

 

I think the only time he ever set foot in France though, he was wearing army uniform and carrying a Webley revolver at his hip. Some Germans didn't seem to want him to land, but I don't think the French minded at all.

[bradbury west]

Like Harris Léon Laisne d'you mean?

Allan, I have always been intrigued by that marque's rear suspension design. Do you know if there a reference book showing the installation?
I have read the workings in a French article.
Many thanks
Roger Lund

[Glengavel]

Yes, I became aware of that but not at the time!
I think Andre Citroen had a sense of humour, I may be wrong but I seem to recall they produced a line of cars which was available in any colour you like, so long as it's yellow.

 

[arttidesco]

When Renault launched their turbo F1 car in the 80's I seem to remember the engines were badged Renault-Gordini.  I guess Renault still own the name but do not seem to use it at all now. I would rather hear that Fernando Alonso had a storming race in his Gordini rather than Alpine   . 

 

Indeed the racing V6 programme when it was a Formula 2 and sports car project was a Renault Gordini, the Renault Gordini name was used for the engine of the Renault Alpine A500 prototype and subsequent F1 engines all the way to the 1984 Renault RE40 and Lotus 94T. Renault merged Alpine and Gordini into Renault Sport their F1 debut in 1977. The Gordini name was dropped from the Renault V6's in 1985 and 1986.

 

English has along history of mangling foreign words, try listening to some of the horrors on Radio 3 and you will know what I mean and I am certainly not immune either. Maybe because of my German Alsation roots I will get away with calling them Alpen.

 

IMHO if Alfa Romeo is not pronounced Ro May Oh it rather misses the point and spirit of Italian romance, passion and fine motor cars.

 

Having just thought about it since the play Romeo and Juliet  was based on is based on Arthur Brookes 1562 translation of an Italian tale in verse Romeus and Juliet  later written in prose as Palace of Pleasure maybe it is time to wonder if Shalkespeare got it wrong and we should be calling it either Ro May Oh and Juliet or at least Romeus and Juliet ;-)

 

 

Edited by arttidesco, 10 September 2020 - 09:19.

[Michael Ferner]

... or, at the very least, Romeo and Giulia.

 

 

Yes, don't worry, I'll get my coat! 

[D-Type]

All this talk of Alfa Romeo makes me wonder: "Was the Giulietta named after Shakespeare's young lady?".
 

As to rebranding Renault as Alpine, I don't mind as long as they beat Mercedes.

Edited by D-Type, 14 September 2020 - 08:32.

[RCH]

I know a lady called Giulietta, named after the '50's Giulietta Sprint which her father fell in love with. 

Good news that Alpine are planning to enter an LMP1 (or whatever it's called these days) car next year. Now that is the category they should be racing in. Perhaps the sports cars should be Alpines and the F1 cars Gordinis? Now that Aston Martin have abandoned the "Hypercar" category, having been seduced by the demon that is Formula One, I am still hoping to see outright winable cars appearing from Jaguar, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bugatti et al. I am not holding my breath...

[john aston]

I've always  assumed it was a common Italian female name, and a variation of the English Juliet and the French Juliette ? Good job  her dad didn't drive a Stradale or Spider....