84 replies to this topic

[jcbc3]

I know a lady called Giulietta, ..

 

And how does this limerick continue, I wonder....

[Michael Ferner]

... who drove an Isetta...

[Tim Murray]

I once knew a girl, Giulietta
Who drove a cute purple Isetta
But her beau, Romeo
Said ‘That thing’s far too slow’
‘Why not try my Ferrari, it’s better’

[kayemod]

I once knew a girl, Giulietta
Who drove a cute purple Isetta
But her beau, Romeo
Said ‘That thing’s far too slow’
‘Why not try my Ferrari, it’s better’

 

Let me guess Tim, your all-time favourite poet is William MacGonagall isn't it?

 

I once knew a girl, Giulietta

 

she penned her Romeo a letter

 

she said I feel rough

 

I’m now up the duff

 

my mum screamed "Get married!", we’d better.

Edited by kayemod, 15 September 2020 - 14:02.

[jcbc3]

having initiated this...

 

A bright young lass from Tyree

when asked her figure of cd

said, might I inquire

if what you desire

is that of my Porsche or me

 

(please note that this only works with the correct German pronunciation of Porsche, two syllables)

[BRG]

  Not sure how thread about Renault becoming Alpine in F1 turned into limericks about Romeo and Juliet.  Weird even for TNF.  But carry on regardless. 

[jcbc3]

I believe it's a reflection of the fact that the name change doesn't mean a thing in the grand scheme of things. It's a bit meh.

[john aston]

If the Renault were the team which shocked us all with its V6 turbo I think the name change would be a big deal . But, like nearly every team except Ferrari, names are now merely flags of convenience  , usually are hardly related to the F1 car., and are pimped around to th highest bidder  Renault  has been Lotus( albeit an ersatz Lotus)and lots of other things including ...err ...Renault , Mercedes were once Honda , Alfa Romeo BMW and Red Bull , recenty sponsored by  Aston Martin , despite having Merc power , started as Tyrrell and the 2021 Aston Martin team was born Jordan  .

 

Thank God for the Cavallino Rampante, say I

Edited by john aston, 16 September 2020 - 06:05.

[Tim Murray]

Not quite as above.

Tyrrell > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes

Stewart > Jaguar > Red Bull (currently using Honda engines)

Toleman > Benetton > Renault > Lotus > Renault > (Alpine)

Jordan > Midland > Spyker > Force India > Racing Point > (Aston Martin)

Sauber > BMW > Sauber > Alfa Romeo

Minardi > Toro Rosso > Alpha Tauri

Ferrari, McLaren, Williams and Haas are the current F1 teams who have always used those names, but who knows what may happen to Williams now the family has relinquished control.

[proviz]

In an ideal world the FIA should be able to rule on the use of team names with an iron hand. Main principle there being that a team cannot buy into a legend, it must create its own.

[jtremlett]

In an ideal world the FIA should be able to rule on the use of team names with an iron hand. Main principle there being that a team cannot buy into a legend, it must create its own

No chance they would do that because it would reduce the value of existing teams and increase the entry cost for anyone wanting to participate in future if they had to start from scratch.  

[proviz]

No chance they would do that because it would reduce the value of existing teams and increase the entry cost for anyone wanting to participate in future if they had to start from scratch.  

 

Newcomers could still be allowed to buy all previous owners' assets including share of Concorde income  etc. - just change the name.

[AJB]

Which many(most?) do of course.

[uechtel]

Not quite as above.

Tyrrell > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes

 

Shouldn´t it rather read Reynard > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes?

I think the takeover of Tyrrell was just to get the F1 franchise, but the team was closed down completely and the new one was set up from new next to the Reynard factory. So hardly any Tyrrell "substance" in the current enterprise.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah my understanding is that BAR bought Tyrrell’s entry to secure a place in the field, but didn’t use any of the assets. However Reynard was more of a consultant and partner, rather than the chassis constructor so their name doesn’t belong in the list.

[Tim Murray]

Shouldn´t it rather read Reynard > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes?
I think the takeover of Tyrrell was just to get the F1 franchise, but the team was closed down completely and the new one was set up from new next to the Reynard factory. So hardly any Tyrrell "substance" in the current enterprise.

That’s a very reasonable way of looking at it. However, as PaYR says, BAR did buy the Tyrrell team, plus the associated F1 rights, to get to compete in F1. On that basis I think the version I posted more accurately reflects the team continuity within F1.

[uechtel]

That’s a very reasonable way of looking at it. However, as PaYR says, BAR did buy the Tyrrell team, plus the associated F1 rights, to get to compete in F1. On that basis I think the version I posted more accurately reflects the team continuity within F1.

To me what makes a "team" is not the legal cover, but the assets, staff members, design rights etc. From this I understand there was (almost) nothing transferred from the old Tyrrell team to BAR besides just a place in the F1 field. But I remember that before 1998 there had already been rumors about a cooperation of Pollock, Villneneuve and Reynard to set up a new team (see https://www.unracedf...he-1997-season/ for example). Nowadays it seems completely normal, that the racing teams themselves are legally separate entities from their "parent concerns" (like Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd. is legally a different company than the parent Daimler AG concern), but choosing the same location and placing the "Reynard" lettering on the nose of the car would indicate to me that BAR was the Formula 1 "arm" of Reynard Motorsport in the same way.

[Michael Ferner]

Thus, March Grand Prix was the "F1 arm" of March Engineering? But then, it became RAM Automotive, and "another" March Grand Prix appeared on the entry lists! S'not easy!

[ensign14]

Ferrari, McLaren, Williams and Haas are the current F1 teams who have always used those names, but who knows what may happen to Williams now the family has relinquished control.

And, to throw another spanner into the works, Williams Grand Prix Engineering is not the same as Frank Williams Racing, who sometimes entered as Williams, Politoys, and Iso.

[Charlieman]

Thus, March Grand Prix was the "F1 arm" of March Engineering? But then, it became RAM Automotive, and "another" March Grand Prix appeared on the entry lists! S'not easy!

But the original March F1 membership of FOCA (or was it F1CA still?) was sold to ATS Wheels for the 1978 season. Which meant that ATS and RAM entered cars from the March family tree from 1981, and the 1982 RAM was designed by Adrian Reynard. I hope that makes things clearer 

[uechtel]

Thus, March Grand Prix was the "F1 arm" of March Engineering? But then, it became RAM Automotive, and "another" March Grand Prix appeared on the entry lists! S'not easy!

Indeed a little bit more complicated. ATS took over March´s F1 team (premises, staff, assets, even hiring Robin Herd´s assistance to develop the Penske PC4 into the ATS HS1) for 1978. For the RAM-March episode I am not familiar with all the details, but according to my point of view it seems like a completely different story. The RAM team was existing already before (1980 in the British F1 series with Williams for example) and for 1981 they made a contract with March as kind of an "exclusive customer" relationship, according to the March Engineering´s new "business modell"  in the 1980ies (like later Larrousse with Lola or the Scuderia Italia with Dallara). In these cases I see the initiative rather on the customer´s side, thus RAM-March keeping continuity of RAM Racing, even if the formal entry may have been made in the name of March Grand Prix Engineering.

Edited by uechtel, 18 September 2020 - 11:10.

[BRG]

In an ideal world the FIA should be able to rule on the use of team names with an iron hand. Main principle there being that a team cannot buy into a legend, it must create its own.

In an ideal world, the FIA would keep its nose out of such matters.  As long as the team is not infringing somebody else's copyright/trademark/IP, in which case they should take legal action, then they should be able to call themselves whatever they like.  If it is egregiously wrong, they will get a lot of stick from the fan base and the media.  Like the chancer Fernandes did with his faux 'Lotus' team.

[FirstnameLastname]

https://www.motorspo...alpine/5863196/

A strong commitment today from Renault...

[arttidesco]

To me what makes a "team" is not the legal cover, but the assets, staff members, design rights etc. From this I understand there was (almost) nothing transferred from the old Tyrrell team to BAR besides just a place in the F1 field. But I remember that before 1998 there had already been rumors about a cooperation of Pollock, Villneneuve and Reynard to set up a new team (see https://www.unracedf...he-1997-season/ for example). Nowadays it seems completely normal, that the racing teams themselves are legally separate entities from their "parent concerns" (like Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd. is legally a different company than the parent Daimler AG concern), but choosing the same location and placing the "Reynard" lettering on the nose of the car would indicate to me that BAR was the Formula 1 "arm" of Reynard Motorsport in the same way.

 

However the whole legal identity of a team in the UK is based on the registration of a legal entity at Companies House, without a legal identity a business, in this case a team, could not trade. When Mercedes Benz bought out the 2009 Constructors champions Brawn GP at the end of 2009 they also bought a legal identity trail at Companies House linking Brawn GP through the Honda Racing F1 Team and British American Racing back to the Tyrrell Racing Organisation founded on the 9th of January 1964 with the company number 00787446, the same number at Companies House which now identifies the Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula One Team ;-)

[john aston]

I don't think Lord Hesketh bothered to hide behind the veil of incorporation for his adventures .... But I do smile at the fact that when Max and Lewis are slugging it out they're driving a Stewart and a Tyrrell, and Alonso is in a Toleman . And in the parallel universe of F1 Aston Martin is as British as leprechauns and Guinness ...

[arttidesco]

I don't think Lord Hesketh bothered to hide behind the veil of incorporation for his adventures .... 

 

..... perhaps that is what qualifies Hesketh as the last true privateer ;-)

[chr1s]

I've always  assumed it was a common Italian female name, and a variation of the English Juliet and the French Juliette ? Good job  her dad didn't drive a Stradale or Spider....

Surely you mean Spyder?

[john aston]

That is an etymological debate which might break the internet .... 

[AntoineP]

A Gordini Formula One would not go with actual Renault marketing and industrial plans.

Renault is planning to launch several cars under the Alpine name (with some Lotus partnership,) using the great sucess the current A110 has.

[BRG]

Well...who would have expected that...... 

[john aston]

Zut alors ,as they say in downtown Dieppe . Mais In Enstone , not so much .  Chapeau ! 

[Doug Nye]

A great TEAM performance to maximise a lucky break - and that bit was particularly good to see. Allez les Bleues...

 

(Oh my - what am I saying....   )

 

DCN

[john aston]

Voter's regret Doug ? 

[Alan Baker]

Should there be a separate listing in F1 records for "The Enstone Team"? Has any other factory had so many (winning) names over the door?

[Arjan de Roos]

Voter's regret Doug? 

 

Its Ted Toleman's old outfit still, so..