526 replies to this topic

[DeKnyff]

Didn't Bottas also qualify over a half a second off Hamilton here with no mistakes on his lap? 

And isn't Bottas on another planet than Hamilton? Not sure that is the comparison you want to make...

[ARTGP]

The best drivers actually get more from cars that are horrible to drive. That is what makes them the best.

 

This question isn't whether Seb is the best driver. This question is why there is a massive gap between Seb and Charles. For which you've answered.

Edited by ARTGP, 28 September 2020 - 09:12.

[PlayboyRacer]

This question isn't whether Seb is the best driver. This question is why there is a massive gap between Seb and Charles

Precisely. And I raised it in response to another post that mentions RP hiring Vettel as an upgrade.

Right now I'd seriously question if he's an upgrade over Perez (on track). Seb could flick a switch next year and all is well. But I think it's a fair debate to raise now because his 2020 form isn't good.

[Massa_f1]

As a Seb fan i am confused about his current form. I don't believe he is that much slower than Charles. I am not just saying that because I am fan. His form is mysterious to me even though i think Charles is the quickest of the pair.

 

Seb should be finishing no less 10 seconds behind him during a race. Seb should not be finding himself in a similar situation to Albon yet he is for reasons unknown.

[uzsjgb]

As a Seb fan i am confused about his current form. I don't believe he is that much slower than Charles. I am not just saying that because I am fan. His form is mysterious to me even though i think Charles is the quickest of the pair.

 

Seb should be finishing no less 10 seconds behind him during a race. Seb should not be finding himself in a similar situation to Albon yet he is for reasons unknown.

 

In his last year at Red Bull Vettel's form also dropped. When Vettel has nothing left to fight for and has mentally already left the team, it seems his motivation and drive gets lost. Nothing mysterious and quite understandable. What interest could Vettel have in fighting for 5th or 6th place in a team, which has not treated him well?

[Anuity]

In his last year at Red Bull Vettel's form also dropped. When Vettel has nothing left to fight for and has mentally already left the team, it seems his motivation and drive gets lost. Nothing mysterious and quite understandable. What interest could Vettel have in fighting for 5th or 6th place in a team, which has not treated him well?

I think it would be in his interest to prove a point at least for himself.
I don’t believe that he is not trying to do his best. But something is clearly wrong.
I also think that Charles is the quickest of them too in current situation, but I doubt that’s the whole story, the gap is too big compared to last year. Even if we taken into consideration that Leclerc has improved.
In the end, it’s understandable that all this situation has affected Seb and he is down. But still you would expect a 4 wdc respond stronger.

Another thing, which i think it’s totally reasonable, is that he can simply be way over his prime. It has happened to some drivers before. Hakkinen retired when he was his age, and was not that great in 2001. Other drivers like Montoya, Räikkönen, etc also had a pretty significant drop in form.
Not everybody has the longevity of Alonso to perform on a high level.

Let’s see what happens next year, but to be honest at the moment I don’t expect a sudden return to form.
This was the season where many expected Seb to respond strongly, and to be honest, he has failed to do that. Unfortunately, but that’s the reality.

[realracer200]

As a Seb fan i am confused about his current form. I don't believe he is that much slower than Charles

Does not matter what you "believe", the fact is Leclerc is dismantling him same as Ricciardo did in 2014.

[taran]

To be clear, I think Leclerc is faster than Vettel in outright speed and that the 2020 Ferrari doesn’t suit Vettel at all. Last year when the car suited Vettel better, Leclerc was fractionally faster but not by a massive degree.

 

When wondering why Vettel is so much slower than Leclerc in 2020, there are other factors that may weigh in besides the car not suiting Vettel.

 

He is clearly demoralised and Ferrari is not doing anything to motivate him IMO. I do think he’s phoning it in. Some people may claim that’s wrong because he is being paid but motivation/confidence is very important for a driver and I don’t know many people who’d be working very hard during their final weeks/months for an employer after you’ve been told you’ve been replaced and have a new job lined up.

 

Secondly, Ferrari is not a homogenous entity where what is good for Ferrari is automatically good for everyone in the team. It is a bureaucratic organisation where individuals have to justify their worth every day, each decision is second-guessed and people and departments are judged against each other (for example, Wolff’s great achievement is moulding Mercedes in a true team). Having dumped Vettel for Sainz because Leclerc has been elected as the new hope, Binotto cannot afford for Vettel to outperform Leclerc in 2020. That would make him look even worse than he looks now and have people question his judgement.

 

So when your boss needs you to look bad and it won’t have any repercussions for the company (it doesn’t matter where Ferrari ends in the WCC because the money is irrelevant, they will have to reduce their current budget by 75% anyway), your goose is pretty much cooked. There are a million ways a team can actively make a driver look bad and a million other ways they can make a driver look bad through sheer indifference.

[PlayboyRacer]

Does not matter what you "believe", the fact is Leclerc is dismantling him same as Ricciardo did in 2014.

I'd actually argue that, what's happening in 2020, we haven't actually seen before with Vettel.

2019 is more comparable to 2014, both in context and statistically. This season he seems literally at sea and we're well over halfway through the season.

[uzsjgb]

I think it would be in his interest to prove a point at least for himself.

 

What point would that be? To beat Leclerc? Vettel has proven time and again that he can, so why should he continue to prove that, especially to himself? I don't see anything Vettel has to gain by doing that.

[B3ndy]

I worked for a few years on the Australian GP in the Paddock and TV compound (2003 - 2008).  Bernie had a right hand man in charge of quality control and making sure Bernie's wishes were followed to the letter of his law, he was an angry, tough old British guy named Nigel (forget his surname) and everyone, Technical Managers, Venue Managers, every Television Network would practically run and hide rather than cop his wrath.

 

Thats really interesting, thanks for sharing.

[BRG]

We know the marketing benefits and prestige to Aston Martin in hiring Vettel. 

Do we?  This is the bit that puzzles me.  They are paying Vettel royally (I presume) compared to Perez,  who may have been effectively a pay-driver with the Slim sponsorship he brought.  Do AM believe that droves of Germans will abandon their Mercedes Audis and BMWs to buy a DBX SUV?   Their traditional customer base is more likely to be put off by Vettel who is hardly the AM Vantage type.  But Mr Stroll didn't become as rich as Croesus for nothing so what do I know?

 

However, what I see in Vettel is someone like Damon Hill in his Jordan days, or Mika Hakkinen in his final season.  They had both clearly lost the taste for racing and were just going through the motions.  As WDCs, that still meant they were better than most, but they were performing way below their best.  I would not be surprised is Vettel baled out at the end of 2021.

[Anuity]

What point would that be? To beat Leclerc? Vettel has proven time and again that he can, so why should he continue to prove that, especially to himself? I don't see anything Vettel has to gain by doing that.

Maybe it’s just my assumption, but I guess all drivers are competitive enough to not be happy Losing to their teammate. In fact I cannot even think of a driver in F1 with that approach of just driving around being happy losing the battle.
His performances are evaluated by other teams, we don’t know what happened exactly, but perhaps one of the reasons Red Bull did not sign him is because they also think he has lost his form.
Even more, as much as I like Seb, I think the reason he is out of Ferrari is not because they have Leclerc, but because Seb failed to beat him, a newcomer and a youngster.
Had he covered Leclerc conveniently like he did with Kimi, I think He would still be driving Ferrari next year.

[uzsjgb]

Maybe it’s just my assumption, but I guess all drivers are competitive enough to not be happy Losing to their teammate. In fact I cannot even think of a driver in F1 with that approach of just driving around being happy losing the battle.
His performances are evaluated by other teams, we don’t know what happened exactly, but perhaps one of the reasons Red Bull did not sign him is because they also think he has lost his form.
Even more, as much as I like Seb, I think the reason he is out of Ferrari is not because they have Leclerc, but because Seb failed to beat him, a newcomer and a youngster.
Had he covered Leclerc conveniently like he did with Kimi, I think He would still be driving Ferrari next year.

 

The teams evaluating Vettel's performance also know his circumstances. Next year Vettel will be sitting in a better car at better terms than Leclerc at Ferrari, so I fail to see how Vettel's performances have impacted him negatively.

 

I have not heard about Red Bull's will to sign Vettel for 2021. This seems to be conjecture, please enlighten me, if it is otherwise. Even if Red Bull had had interest in Vettel, I don't see why Vettel should wish to return there, under the current circumstances. Racing Point is the much better destination for Vettel.

[shure]

As a Seb fan i am confused about his current form. I don't believe he is that much slower than Charles. I am not just saying that because I am fan. His form is mysterious to me even though i think Charles is the quickest of the pair.

 

Seb should be finishing no less 10 seconds behind him during a race. Seb should not be finding himself in a similar situation to Albon yet he is for reasons unknown.

The  harder a car is to drive, the greater the gap there will be between team mates.  Seb has already stated he lacks  confidence in the car.  I don't think people really appreciate how much of an impact that can have in a sport where things are measured in hundredths or even thousandths of a second.  Even a few tenths is not actually that much of a difference in the real world.  Braking that little  bit earlier because you can't feel the wheels bite, taking a corner a little slower because you don't have confidence in the grip, being nervous that the back end may break away from you at any point, these all have the potential to add up to huge amounts of time.

 

Vettel's clearly a confidence driver.  I'd suggest not as much as Kimi, but he's not able to overcome a problem car in the way that the likes of Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen and yes now Leclerc have shown.  I reckon if the car was easier to drive his times would  be closer to Leclerc's just because of the confidence factor

[shure]

The teams evaluating Vettel's performance also know his circumstances. Next year Vettel will be sitting in a better car at better terms than Leclerc at Ferrari, so I fail to see how Vettel's performances have impacted him negatively.

 

I have not heard about Red Bull's will to sign Vettel for 2021. This seems to be conjecture, please enlighten me, if it is otherwise. Even if Red Bull had had interest in Vettel, I don't see why Vettel should wish to return there, under the current circumstances. Racing Point is the much better destination for Vettel.

Just about any discussion on contracts is largely conjecture, if only because it's extremely rare for any team to outright admit they made an offer that was rejected.  There were a number of reports doing the rounds about bringing back the prodigal son, which I suspect you know, but whether they had any truth to them is impossible to say.  Certainly no-one will have categorical proof

[shure]

Maybe it’s just my assumption, but I guess all drivers are competitive enough to not be happy Losing to their teammate. In fact I cannot even think of a driver in F1 with that approach of just driving around being happy losing the battle.
His performances are evaluated by other teams, we don’t know what happened exactly, but perhaps one of the reasons Red Bull did not sign him is because they also think he has lost his form.
Even more, as much as I like Seb, I think the reason he is out of Ferrari is not because they have Leclerc, but because Seb failed to beat him, a newcomer and a youngster.
Had he covered Leclerc conveniently like he did with Kimi, I think He would still be driving Ferrari next year.

Yes I can't imagine Vettel would be happy to lose to Leclerc.  Every report I've ever read about him by those who have worked with him state he's highly competitive.  I don't  see him taking the current situation without a fight.

[Marklar]

I'd actually argue that, what's happening in 2020, we haven't actually seen before with Vettel.

2019 is more comparable to 2014, both in context and statistically. This season he seems literally at sea and we're well over halfway through the season.

hm, I think 2020 is in some ways comparable to 2014. The race pace difference to Ricciardo was quite similar IIRC, if anything it was more, because he is matching or even quicker than Leclerc sometimes in the races as well.

 

Qualifying is a new one though. He never was this much dominated, but then again who knows how much Kimi masked his performance here over the years.

Edited by Marklar, 28 September 2020 - 11:51.

[PlayboyRacer]

hm, I think 2020 is in some ways comparable to 2014. The race pace difference to Ricciardo was quite similar IIRC, if anything it was more, because he is matching or even quicker than Leclerc sometimes in the races as well.

Out of 9 races so far (Styria n/a), you'd legitimately say Vettel had Leclerc well beaten in Hungary, whilst matching him at Spa and parts of the Tuscan race. It's not really that much different to qualifying (8-2).

Recalling 2014 off hand is difficult, were the races that far skewed in Ricciardos favour?

[Exumer]

We can talk about 2020 and to some degree 2019 to death. It's obvious by now that Seb isn't at his best, not really motivated, mentally checked out from the team. Team isn't interested in him, no new updates which can improve the car to suit his style. All of this combined means he is lacking confidence in the car and in the team and therefore lacks speed and makes mistakes. Charles is in a great shape and is able to get more out of the car.  The facts are there.

 

The more interesting question is next. How is he going to adapt to the new car concept in 2021?

 

Low rake concept will be totally different to him. All Ferraris he has driven had high rake. 2020 is no exception. When he was at RB, their cars had high rake and still do.

 

So Merc, sorry I mean AM car will be a clean slate for him. How is he going to cope? Is it going help with his driving style? How quickly can he adapt? Is it going to help with his qualy performances? Or is he going to struggle? 

 

Also, by 2021 Stroll is going to have 1 year with this concept behind him so should be even more comfortable with it.

 

Interesting times for Seb for sure. He must deliver goods asap in 2021, otherwise we all know that none of the contracts in F1 are watertight.

[ARTGP]

We can talk about 2020 and to some degree 2019 to death. It's obvious by now that Seb isn't at his best, not really motivated, mentally checked out from the team. Team isn't interested in him, no new updates which can improve the car to suit his style. All of this combined means he is lacking confidence in the car and in the team and therefore lacks speed and makes mistakes. Charles is in a great shape and is able to get more out of the car.  The facts are there.

 

The more interesting question is next. How is he going to adapt to the new car concept in 2021?

 

Low rake concept will be totally different to him. All Ferraris he has driven had high rake. 2020 is no exception. When he was at RB, their cars had high rake and still do.

 

So Merc, sorry I mean AM car will be a clean slate for him. How is he going to cope? Is it going help with his driving style? How quickly can he adapt? Is it going to help with his qualy performances? Or is he going to struggle? 

 

Also, by 2021 Stroll is going to have 1 year with this concept behind him so should be even more comfortable with it.

 

Interesting times for Seb for sure. He must deliver goods asap in 2021, otherwise we all know that none of the contracts in F1 are watertight.

 

 

Low Rake vs High Rake isn't the problem though. You can have a planted rear with or without rake. Too many teams smoking whatever Newey is on.

 

What's worrying though was Hulkenberg's comments in Silverstone about the RP20 (he basically said the RP20 is pointy/"on the nose", and was stepping out in the rear. Going off those comments, it could be a nightmare for Seb.  

Edited by ARTGP, 28 September 2020 - 20:30.

[Exumer]

Low Rake vs High Rake isn't the problem though. You can have a planted rear with or without rake. Too many teams smoking whatever Newey is on.

 

What's worrying though was Hulkenberg's comments in Silverstone about the RP20 (he basically said the RP20 is pointy/"on the nose", and was stepping out in the rear. Going off those comments, it could be a nightmare for Seb.  

You could be right. I still think that Seb will have to learn how to work and get maximum out of low rake and that can take some time.

 

Yeah, those comments from Hulk are worrying, especially regarding stepping out in the rear. Hopefully it will be less prominent on the next year's car. But that can definitely affect Seb and in a bad way.

 

But at the end, they hired him to perform. You cannot always expect that cars will always suit your driving style. The question is would it be easier for him to adapt than at Ferrari?

 

Also, quite interesting is how are 2022 cars going to suit him?

[baddog]

I'm not bigging Vettel up by saying I think any driver from the top 3 teams, plus Daniel, Carlos, Hulk, George Fernando at least would move the RP up the field substantially. The car is that good.

[HeadFirst]

I'm not bigging Vettel up by saying I think any driver from the top 3 teams, plus Daniel, Carlos, Hulk, George Fernando at least would move the RP up the field substantially. The car is that good.

 

Doesn't work that way though. If you leave Hamilton and Bottas in the Mercedes, and Max in the RB, who is capable of beating one of those three without extenuating circumstances? The list is much shorter, especially if you consider that Perez missed 2 races, and Stroll had 2 mechanical failures, and was taken out by Leclerc in Russia. The car is good, but not better than the Mercedes, and only better than the Renault most (not all) of the time. Under those circumstances, I agree with Alonso, and Daniel, but Charles, Carlos and maybe Seb only as capable of a slight improvement. 

[baddog]

Looking at what the car can do, I think it is comfortably the second best car this year, occasionally matched by the RB but never by the others. With a top line driver it would be 3-4 typically and on bad days by a Merc driver wins and seconds would be on the cards. Im not saying others would beat the mercs one on one on a typical weekend, but they should be sniffing at its heels often.

 

On that basis think Perez is what he always has been, a mediocre qualifier who races with great consistency. He is also comfortably faster than his teammate in qualy and races. Based on that, Stroll is a cleaned up version of what HE has always been, a lower midfielder who can often drive a race without dumb mistakes. His results are enormously flattered by happenings this year. 

 

Its only an opinion of course based on what we see on track( in the end by this point in a year everyone forms one) and mine is that there are maybe 8 drivers in F1 right now and a couple on the benches who would be putting in much better results in that car. I think we are all tending (me too till I thought about it) to underrate the package, which has lovely handling and great top end speed.

 

Of course next year is another day so we shall see. Surely going to be interesting.

[Anuity]

I don’t see how drivers like Sainz, and especially Hulk would “substantially” move RP up the field.
Sounds more like personal preference of certain drivers and wishes.

They are essentially the same level drivers, Hulk is somewhat behind as we have seen.
Pérez is the most consistent and least error prone of those 3. In fact everything points to the direction of him being slightly better than the other too. Can Seb perform better? I hope so, but in his current form I also would not expect anything substantial.

[apoka]

hm, I think 2020 is in some ways comparable to 2014. The race pace difference to Ricciardo was quite similar IIRC, if anything it was more, because he is matching or even quicker than Leclerc sometimes in the races as well.

 

Qualifying is a new one though. He never was this much dominated, but then again who knows how much Kimi masked his performance here over the years.

 

My feeling is that Vettel mainly had an issue with tyre deg in 2014. Near the end of races, Ricardo would then often be in a position to make up places (and sometimes winning when things went well), whereas Vettel was busy saving his position. This ultimately led to the point differences at the end of the season. In qualy, there wasn't much between Ricardo and Seb (when adjusted for circumstances out of their control). For me 2020 feels much worse than 2014. It's hard to say which of the many possible factors is the most relevant one for explaining that gap.