Wonder if this means Ineos will become title sponsor now?
@MercedesAMGF1
PETRONAS will continue as the team's title partner. Our special partnership goes all the way back to 2010!
Posted 18 December 2020 - 12:47
Wonder if this means Ineos will become title sponsor now?
@MercedesAMGF1
PETRONAS will continue as the team's title partner. Our special partnership goes all the way back to 2010!
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Posted 18 December 2020 - 12:52
@MercedesAMGF1
PETRONAS will continue as the team's title partner. Our special partnership goes all the way back to 2010!
I thought there was a story a while back about Petronas taking a step back?
Replacing them by ENEOS might have been fun with INEOS on the car as well!
Posted 18 December 2020 - 13:25
I meant of the company in which they just sold part of their shares ... Merc AG no longer has control of that company. They are back to where they were with Macca - an important partner but not by any means the boss.
.... control of the engine side is a different thing.
Not necessarily. One quick example before elaborating on MBGP, Zuckerberg owns less than 15% of all Facebook shares however what he does own is a second class of shares that gives 10 votes per share versus the regular 1 vote per share. Thus even though he is rather minority on the shareholding front he controls the company. Moral is, not all shares have to be the same.
As for MBGP...they have 2 classes of shares. One 'ordinary', which each have one vote. These are owned by Mercedes 70% and Wolff 30%. Combined these 2 million shares are assigned a capital value of 200 million.
In 2017 MBGP created a 2nd class of shares called 'preference shares' which have no voting power but are entitled to dividends. So far all evidence shows these were not given to Daimler or Toto. The capital share of these is 130 million.
200 = 130 = 330
I suspect what Ineos has done (willing to be told wrong) is purchased the preference shares. If so, they don't have voting power away from whoever they can put on the Board of Directors.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 13:58
@MercedesAMGF1
PETRONASMERCEDES will continue as the team's title partner. Our special partnership goes all the way back to 2010!
Edited by ARTGP, 18 December 2020 - 13:59.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 14:08
Not necessarily. One quick example before elaborating on MBGP, Zuckerberg owns less than 15% of all Facebook shares however what he does own is a second class of shares that gives 10 votes per share versus the regular 1 vote per share. Thus even though he is rather minority on the shareholding front he controls the company. Moral is, not all shares have to be the same.
As for MBGP...they have 2 classes of shares. One 'ordinary', which each have one vote. These are owned by Mercedes 70% and Wolff 30%. Combined these 2 million shares are assigned a capital value of 200 million.
In 2017 MBGP created a 2nd class of shares called 'preference shares' which have no voting power but are entitled to dividends. So far all evidence shows these were not given to Daimler or Toto. The capital share of these is 130 million.
200 = 130 = 330
I suspect what Ineos has done (willing to be told wrong) is purchased the preference shares. If so, they don't have voting power away from whoever they can put on the Board of Directors.
I don't think for a moment that a multinational company like Ineos is going to enter into the capital of a business (let alone a business with huge public exposure) without having the political rights which go with. I just don't see Ratcliffe putting money in a venture where he wouldn't have a say.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 14:52
Ad 1) Smart Cars was only ever a huge loss maker for Mercedes. So that's not crown jewels,/family silver. That's 'smart' business.
Ad 2) No
1) was something that enabled Maybachs because it dragged down the average MPG of Mercedes vehicles. Although given what we now know they don't need Smart any more to do that, they can make up a bunch of bullshit.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 15:14
My guess is that the rumours of LH's demands were just journo's making stuff up to understand why the talks were taking so long. I suspect the real holdup was this deal and the question mark over Toto. I would not surprise me to find that Lewis was a bit reluctant to sign until he knew that either Toto was staying or he had a chance to talk with his successor.
That would make sense.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 15:19
My guess is that the rumours of LH's demands were just journo's making stuff up to understand why the talks were taking so long. I suspect the real holdup was this deal and the question mark over Toto. I would not surprise me to find that Lewis was a bit reluctant to sign until he knew that either Toto was staying or he had a chance to talk with his successor.
Lewis regularly reminds us that he thanks everyone back at the factory for giving him this opportunity. I don't think Lewis would aggrandize Toto's position to the point that he's not going to sign if Toto doesn't sign. I seem to recall that DAS was invented, and then they told Toto. It takes a village, they say, and Lewis knows it's not just Toto behind the scenes.
Edited by ARTGP, 18 December 2020 - 15:19.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 15:56
I think Petrobras would put a veto on ENEOS having anything to do with Mercedes
Edited by Fastcake, 18 December 2020 - 15:56.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 16:16
Not necessarily. One quick example before elaborating on MBGP, Zuckerberg owns less than 15% of all Facebook shares however what he does own is a second class of shares that gives 10 votes per share versus the regular 1 vote per share. Thus even though he is rather minority on the shareholding front he controls the company. Moral is, not all shares have to be the same.
As for MBGP...they have 2 classes of shares. One 'ordinary', which each have one vote. These are owned by Mercedes 70% and Wolff 30%. Combined these 2 million shares are assigned a capital value of 200 million.
In 2017 MBGP created a 2nd class of shares called 'preference shares' which have no voting power but are entitled to dividends. So far all evidence shows these were not given to Daimler or Toto. The capital share of these is 130 million.
200 = 130 = 330
I suspect what Ineos has done (willing to be told wrong) is purchased the preference shares. If so, they don't have voting power away from whoever they can put on the Board of Directors.
No way has Radcliffe taken non-voting preference shares ... you do that to make a pure financial investment ... you dont go 1/3-1/3-1/3 if youre doing that .... that's an active partnership structure, not an limited partnership structure. [edit 1 - so the folks who agree to by B shareholders in something like facebook are just along for the ride - they just want dividends and some increase in share price - they dont want to be part of any decisions ... that's not the kind of deal we have here. Different type of company, different type of investor, different type of structure]
Like I said before the only additional power that Merc might still have is a veto to stop anything that might tarnish its name... and that will be limited and temporary.
I have no inside knowledge of this deal - but I would put money on it being a proper active partnership rather than a mere investment on a limited partner basis.
I would also bet that they restructured everything to do with the shareholding (so that A and B business is probably gone) ... and they have brand new structures and agreements for everything... and they have been working on this for at least 6 months solid if not up to a year. [edit 2 - I mean working on the fine details of the deal and the restructuring of the company - I dont mean the big picture agreement, I suspect that was worked out in principle - between at least 2 sides of the deal - some time ago].
Edited by jjcale, 18 December 2020 - 16:45.
Posted 18 December 2020 - 17:39
Mercedes have been very open with giving Lewis credit for his contribution to developing the W11 & galvanising the team. It’s not all about marketing value.
You are missing the point totally
Posted 18 December 2020 - 20:05
Posted 18 December 2020 - 21:02
But no they wouldn’t be able to do what Hamilton could and that includes his heavy involvement in the teams development, he is irreplaceable in that respect, amongst others.You are missing the point totally
Posted 18 December 2020 - 21:18
Posted 19 December 2020 - 06:38
Makes the team less reliant on Daimler support but means they can continue for decades to come under the new financial regs that’ll mean all 3 parties get an equal share of the ‘profits’ from what’s about to become a very profitable team as the cost cap kicks in.
I do wonder why Merc didn’t want to keep 60% though... and if Toto has taken shares instead of salary.
Ineos rocking up and taking a third of the team, wonder what that’s robbed them.
From a marketing value perspective, nothing changes for Mercedes. To all onlookers, its still the Mercedes F1 team. Mercedes are getting what they wanted now which is minimal investment, while retaining all of the brand association.
Lewis will win titles in a Mercedes, not an "Ineos" no matter how small the Merc share becomes.
Edited by ARTGP, 19 December 2020 - 06:41.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 08:32
I don't think any car manufacturer gets into F1 for the profit of the team. It's too small and too unreliabe. It's for the name, association, marketing and technology and I'm sure nothing has changed here.Makes the team less reliant on Daimler support but means they can continue for decades to come under the new financial regs that’ll mean all 3 parties get an equal share of the ‘profits’ from what’s about to become a very profitable team as the cost cap kicks in.
I do wonder why Merc didn’t want to keep 60% though... and if Toto has taken shares instead of salary.
Ineos rocking up and taking a third of the team, wonder what that’s robbed them.
Edited by timmy bolt, 19 December 2020 - 08:33.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 11:04
**edit** Daimler owns the 'Preference' shares in exchange for a 130mln P capital shore up.
I don't think for a moment that a multinational company like Ineos is going to enter into the capital of a business (let alone a business with huge public exposure) without having the political rights which go with. I just don't see Ratcliffe putting money in a venture where he wouldn't have a say.
Companies are ruled by the board of directors, not the shareholders. Even if he had full voting shares 33% gets you little on the control front. However, as in the Facebook example, all sorts of investors are willing to pour money into something they have no control over, even if that company is run by a 20-something year old. In this case it's Mercedes-Benz and the very exposure you speak of keeps things in check. No buckaroo's at the helm.
I don't see why Mercedes and Toto want or need Ratcliffe to become a third wheel in the decision making front. MBGP does offer Ineos access to all sorts of great technology and human capital and if MBGP envision future dividend payments (after all they created such shares) then that's a lot of winning for Ineos. Look what MBGP was able to do with Covid. That factory is an entrepreneurs wet dream.
So it is possible just as it is possible both classes of shares are split thirds, though for Daimler it makes little sense to receive dividends. It's also possible Toto now owns these dividend paying shares as of the three he is closest to the exit and the single individual person.
What is also possible is even if they are non-voting this likely puts Ineos in position to buy the whole company. It isn't rare for shares to have options or conditions where if one wishes to sell the other shareholders are in pole position to buy. Daimler has to structure this so when Toto leaves and if they stay they are not under the thumb of Ratcliffe afterwards. So they will only give him so much 'power' now because Toto sure isn't going to give up any.
One also has to ask who is interested in a special dividend only share class that has never had an owner or dividend paid? Why does it exist?
What we should remember is GP teams are about to become a lot more profitable and top teams like MBGP will have excess human capital and equipment that can do other profitable things..
Edited by Nathan, 19 December 2020 - 13:48.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 11:23
Makes the team less reliant on Daimler support but means they can continue for decades to come under the new financial regs that’ll mean all 3 parties get an equal share of the ‘profits’ from what’s about to become a very profitable team as the cost cap kicks in.
I do wonder why Merc didn’t want to keep 60% though... and if Toto has taken shares instead of salary.
Ineos rocking up and taking a third of the team, wonder what that’s robbed them.
60% vs 30% stake changes nothing about the brand representation of Mercedes in Formula 1. Merc freed up assets that had no real benefit.
Edited by ARTGP, 19 December 2020 - 11:24.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 11:34
Companies are ruled by the board of directors, not the shareholders. Even if he had full voting shares 33% gets you little on the control front. However, as in the Facebook example, all sorts of investors are willing to pour money into something they have no control over, even if that company is run by a 20-something year old. In this case it's Mercedes-Benz and the very exposure you speak of keeps things in check. No buckaroo's at the helm. So it is possible just as it is possible both classes of shares are split thirds, though for Daimler it makes little sense. Daimler would save the tax charged against and just write smaller cheques. It's also possible Toto now owns these dividend paying shares as of the three he is closest to the exit and the single individual person.
What is also possible is even if they are non-voting this likely puts Ineos in position to buy the whole company. It isn't rare for shares to have options or conditions where if one wishes to sell the other shareholders are in pole position to buy. One also has to ask who is interested in a special dividend only share that has never had an owner or dividend paid? Why does it exist?
What we should remember is GP teams are about to become alot more profitable
Ordinary shareholders don't rule the companies, but Ineos is no ordinary shareholder. Sure Ratcliffe wants a seat in the board, if not the ruling seat. The Facebook example is not valid, people were pouring money because they saw value there, but a Formula One team (just like a football team) will never be a money-making machine, quite the oposite. Billionaires never invest there for strictly financial reasons (they can doubtless find hundreds of more profitable investments). You accurately say that it would make little sense for Daimler to buy preference shares. Well, neither would for Ineos, they play in the same league. Multinational corporations which invest hundreds of millions in a venture always want to keep a certain control on their money, which is completely understandable.
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Posted 19 December 2020 - 13:58
Note I made some edits to my previously quoted post. Daimler did buy those preference shares via a 130mln Pound capital injection. At some point they will want that capital back or they wouldn't have gone though all this structuring. There are lots of big capital deals that don't amount to more than a board seat at best, which I understand is happening here.
I disagree on the 'Formula One team will never be a money-making machine'. They are not like a football team, they are engineering firms. I think large F1 teams like Mercedes are about to become good profit makers, or creators of great value for other allied entities. They are an engineering asset that with looming forced staff redundancies will start looking for high tech value drivers to take over all this side lined talent & capital. You don't just let the staff go and put the computers and mills in a storage locker.
Just consider how much Radcliffe has recently poured in Magna's bank account and how he can benefit from the bio fuel change in F1 and the market place. He just needs to establish a joint partnership with an equity swap.
Edited by Nathan, 19 December 2020 - 14:09.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 14:23
Note I made some edits to my previously quoted post. Daimler did buy those preference shares via a 130mln Pound capital injection. At some point they will want that capital back or they wouldn't have gone though all this structuring. There are lots of big capital deals that don't amount to more than a board seat at best, which I understand is happening here.
I disagree on the 'Formula One team will never be a money-making machine'. They are not like a football team, they are engineering firms. I think large F1 teams like Mercedes are about to become good profit makers, or creators of great value for other allied entities. They are an engineering asset that with looming forced staff redundancies will start looking for high tech value drivers to take over all this side lined talent & capital. You don't just let the staff go and put the computers and mills in a storage locker.
Just consider how much Radcliffe has recently poured in Magna's bank account and how he can benefit from the bio fuel change in F1 and the market place. He just needs to establish a joint partnership with an equity swap.
What I find it difficult to believe that a company like Ineos and a businessman like Ratcliffe enter a place (whatever place) just to be a passenger of the situation and not one of the driving forces. But we'll see.
We obviously have different point of views, so I suggest that we agree to disagree.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 14:44
Posted 19 December 2020 - 18:34
Note I made some edits to my previously quoted post. Daimler did buy those preference shares via a 130mln Pound capital injection. At some point they will want that capital back or they wouldn't have gone though all this structuring. There are lots of big capital deals that don't amount to more than a board seat at best, which I understand is happening here.
I disagree on the 'Formula One team will never be a money-making machine'. They are not like a football team, they are engineering firms. I think large F1 teams like Mercedes are about to become good profit makers, or creators of great value for other allied entities. They are an engineering asset that with looming forced staff redundancies will start looking for high tech value drivers to take over all this side lined talent & capital. You don't just let the staff go and put the computers and mills in a storage locker.
Just consider how much Radcliffe has recently poured in Magna's bank account and how he can benefit from the bio fuel change in F1 and the market place. He just needs to establish a joint partnership with an equity swap.
Do you have some special knowledge? .... youre being surprisingly adamant about something that normally would be considered quite unlikely ... a position which I would not expect being somewhat familiar with posts that you have made on similar topics which show general knowledge of these topics.
Edited by jjcale, 19 December 2020 - 18:45.
Posted 19 December 2020 - 18:35
Any reports on the financial details of the sale? It would be interesting to know what the team is valued at.
Posted 20 December 2020 - 16:45
Toto
“I haven’t committed to a further three years. I have committed for life.
“We are three shareholders that own the company today, and irrespective of my own role, I could be team principal, CEO, executive chairman, at any time. But Mercedes is what I do.”
https://www.motorspo...paign=widget-22
Edited by ToniF1, 20 December 2020 - 16:45.
Posted 20 December 2020 - 16:53
So Mercedes F1 Team is not a factory team any more. Daimler hasn't full 100% control
Posted 20 December 2020 - 19:25
it never did, Lauda and Woolf had shares, too.So Mercedes F1 Team is not a factory team any more. Daimler hasn't full 100% control
Posted 20 December 2020 - 19:30
So Mercedes F1 Team is not a factory team any more. Daimler hasn't full 100% control
They had 40% of McLaren back in the day, so this is less than that McLaren- Mercedes era.
Posted 20 December 2020 - 19:33
Do you have some special knowledge? .... youre being surprisingly adamant about something that normally would be considered quite unlikely ... a position which I would not expect being somewhat familiar with posts that you have made on similar topics which show general knowledge of these topics.
That's how a lot of the tech IPOs were structured, Facebook for instance. I know shareholders hate such arrangements, but when you've got a successful business I suppose you're free to dictate the terms.
Posted 20 December 2020 - 22:55
it never did, Lauda and Woolf had shares, too.
And when Mercedes brought Brawn GP they did so in conjunction with one of the gulf state investment funds, with Ross Brawn keeping a shareholding in the team. Daimler have always had partners in the team.
Posted 21 December 2020 - 02:14
So Mercedes F1 Team is not a factory team any more. Daimler hasn't full 100% control
What matters are the class of shares and the voting authority that comes with them. One could own a plurality or in some cases a minority of the value of a company but still have authority over the company. IOW if you had a third of the shares depending on how the deal was structured you may not have a third of the comtrol.
Posted 21 December 2020 - 08:29
it never did, Lauda and Woolf had shares, too.
But Daimler was majority owner with 60%. Toto 30% and Niki 10%
Posted 21 December 2020 - 09:20
That's how a lot of the tech IPOs were structured, Facebook for instance. I know shareholders hate such arrangements, but when you've got a successful business I suppose you're free to dictate the terms.
That is possibly the worst guide to understanding this situation ... as I said before: Different sector, different type of investor, different type of company - there are no real parallels. Why are people even talking about something like Facebook in this context? Is it because of the preference shares that we have heard about? .... that's not a big deal. This is not a public company. It can be restructured at will. .... it is far more likely that the company was restructured than that Ineos bought non-voting preference shares..... and why would they make an announcement that all are equal parties if that was not the case? ... they literally explained what they did in a press release ... why are folks speculating further - and especially going down the most unlikely of rabbit holes?
The Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula One Team is delighted to announce that INEOS will become a one third shareholder in the team, which will be owned in three equal parts by Daimler AG, INEOS and Toto Wolff.The INEOS one-third stake in the team will be in addition to its existing role as Principal Partner. In parallel, Daimler will reduce its current 60% shareholding and Toto Wolff increase his current 30%, in order to create three equal partners in the company.
And they even told you why they went in this direction
From 2021, the business landscape of Formula One will be transformed by new Financial Regulations which will enable teams to achieve standalone financial sustainability in the years ahead. The team will be strengthened by closer alignment to Mercedes-AMG, the performance division of Mercedes-Benz, and has already begun to diversify through its new business division Applied Science, which leverages high-performance engineering capability for innovative projects beyond motorsport.
I love a good theory as much as the next man but the idea that despite all we have been told (and all we know about these things) that Ineos just bought some preference shares and Merc are really still in control, is swimming too much against the tide for me.
This is my last post on this point ... I made about 6 already. Unless there is some new info, I dont see what else I can usefully add.
Posted 21 December 2020 - 11:59
No change yet on the Companies House information on Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd which still shows Daimler AG as having 50% to 75% control and Toto having between 25% and 50%. It may take a while to register; the Dorilton takeover of Williams didn't show up for a couple of weeks. But when it does, we shall know the answer.
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:04
Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 21 December 2020 - 12:07.
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:27
No change yet on the Companies House information on Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd which still shows Daimler AG as having 50% to 75% control and Toto having between 25% and 50%. It may take a while to register; the Dorilton takeover of Williams didn't show up for a couple of weeks. But when it does, we shall know the answer.
What happened with Lauda's 10%?
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:38
What happened with Lauda's 10%?
Obviously either Toto or Ineos have it now.
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:46
And when Mercedes brought Brawn GP they did so in conjunction with one of the gulf state investment funds, with Ross Brawn keeping a shareholding in the team. Daimler have always had partners in the team.
I believe Brawn bought the team from Honda with help from a gulf state. Mercedes bought the team outright.
Posted 27 February 2021 - 15:56
Aabar Investments of Abu Dhabi was a 40% partner in Mercedes GP when the team was bought from Brawn & Co. I believe they had branding around the front wings. It's been a while now, but my memory wants to say they provided the cash (100 mln somethings) for the buyout.
While an agreement with the Lauda family was announced, it seems the transaction hasn't been completed, or published....with ties into a pondering Ive been having in relation to Ineos...
I don't know how the laws and such work in UK, but I find it odd all these months later and nothing officially on the public record at Companies House has changed for MBGP in regards to changed in ownership or appointing of a director(s). They have filed a change of secretary since.
McLaren's paperwork for shareholdings, debt clearance and directors have all been filed and published, and I think that all was announced after Ineos/Merc.
What are usual hold up in filing/publishing?
Edited by Nathan, 27 February 2021 - 16:04.
Posted 27 February 2021 - 22:20
Good spot.
I think BRG that is just for changes in the share structure, like how many or creating a new class, not who owns them. But what is needed is to report a new "person with significant control", which is anyone owning 25% of the company, to Companies House with 28 days. You'd also expect new directors appointed from Ineos as well.
I wouldn't say a few months before things are formalised is unusual. Though I'd start asking questions if they still haven't reported anything another couple of months down the line.
Posted 28 February 2021 - 12:41
The changes at Williams and RP/Aston Martin were registered within a month or so of the announcements. The Ineos announcement was nearly five months ago.