732 replies to this topic

[Ivanhoe]

 I'll note that his lack of incidents on track have coincided with having to mix it up less with other drivers as the car has gotten faster and other challengers have fallen back. 

You must have missed his turn around in 2018 after the Monaco debacle. Verstappen isn't just fast, he is fast over a race distance and showed that he can be very consistent over a season. He 's also showing more patience in L1/T1 moments, look at Monza this year for instance. We've seen battles with Charles on Silverstone where both showed they can fight hard but fair. And when was the last time we saw Max weaving or blocking? Saying he hasn't matured on and off track is just delusional. Moreover, if Max' lack of incidents has anything to do with having to mix up less with other drivers, how would this be different for Lewis?

Edited by Ivanhoe, 22 September 2020 - 06:53.

[Ivanhoe]

Ahh, you're now arguing semantics rather than the substance of the argument. Sorry, not falling for that little debating trick. 

Is that another way of saying you're running out of arguments?

[Requiem84]

Ahh, you're now arguing semantics rather than the substance of the argument. Sorry, not falling for that little debating trick.




No, that is your opinion. He's had some solid drives, I'll grant him that, but the majority of his wins seem to come from the misfortune of others rather than any outright racing craft go his own. I'm not saying that Max is a bad driver, far from it. He has the potential to be a really great racing driver - but he's not there yet, and I don't think his record currently warrants a team going to considerable efforts to hire him if he becomes available.

If youre serious about this, please demonstrate that the majority of his race wins are a result of misfortune of others.

There are 9 race wins, so please list them and show us your point :-).

[Spyker]

Oh I agree, he might win 0 titles. But saying he’s not done shown special and then rewriting history regarding his time vs Ricciardo just shows their is an agenda instead of honest debate.

Who’s rewriting history. It’s there for all to see. Ric beat him in the first 2 seasons. He was beating him in the 3rd until Hungary. He had 3 poles to Max’s 0 as teammates. Ric had 4 DNFs from Hungary on in 2018, Max had 0. Max was ahead on the qualifying averages I think.

There is no agenda, I like Max. I just don’t think he’s the great hope that people make him out to be. Given their time as teammates, I find it difficult to place Max above Ric.

If you want honest debate I suggest you actually provide facts to counter my points.

[Rodaknee]

Following on from his Mercedes sale prediction, Jordan has stuck his nose into the "Hamilton should" story.

 

https://www.autospor...d-join-red-bull

 

 

Lewis Hamilton should join Red Bull and help form a super team alongside Max Verstappen, reckons former Formula 1 team boss Eddie Jordan.

 

Life must be getting boring for the EJiot, locked down in his Monaco flat.

[Huffer]

Is that another way of saying you're running out of arguments?

 

No, it's my polite way of saying that others are

 

You must have missed his turn around in 2018 after the Monaco debacle. Verstappen isn't just fast, he is fast over a race distance and showed that he can be very consistent over a season. He 's also showing more patience in L1/T1 moments, look at Monza this year for instance. We've seen battles with Charles on Silverstone where both showed they can fight hard but fair. And when was the last time we saw Max weaving or blocking? Saying he hasn't matured on and off track is just delusional. Moreover, if Max' lack of incidents has anything to do with having to mix up less with other drivers, how would this be different for Lewis?

 

I'm not saying that he hasn't matured - but at the same time, Max has been in a position where he hasn't had to resort to the same issues such as moving under braking, because the state of F1 over the last couple of seasons means that more often than not, he's not having to fight for position as often, and under the same circumstances. But remember, Verstappen knew he had a faster car than Leclerc in Silverstone of last year - he knew that the odds were in his favour by a margin. Granted, Max of 2018 might not have thought in the same manner, but it is easier to wait a little and not seize an uncertain chance when you know you have an advantage to be able to wait a while. 

 

Consistency over a race distance and over a season have other factors that contribute as well - typically the car and the team. I remember during Vettel's RBR days, he was hailed for exactly the same thing, but my argument was always that consistency was more a function of other factors. And when the car wasn't there any more, Vettel's consistency suddenly disappeared. 

Edited by Huffer, 22 September 2020 - 07:16.

[PlayboyRacer]

Following on from his Mercedes sale prediction, Jordan has stuck his nose into the "Hamilton should" story.

https://www.autospor...d-join-red-bull


Life must be getting boring for the EJiot, locked down in his Monaco flat.

I like the sound of that. Frees up a seat for Leclerc at Mercedes.

[Marklar]

Following on from his Mercedes sale prediction, Jordan has stuck his nose into the "Hamilton should" story.

https://www.autospor...d-join-red-bull


Life must be getting boring for the EJiot, locked down in his Monaco flat.

a few months ago he wanted him to join Ferrari lol

[Rodaknee]

a few months ago he wanted him to join Ferrari lol

He should become a taxi driver, they're experts on everything.

[Spyker]

Following on from his Mercedes sale prediction, Jordan has stuck his nose into the "Hamilton should" story.

https://www.autospor...d-join-red-bull


Life must be getting boring for the EJiot, locked down in his Monaco flat.

Got to love EJ. If he knew how to operate YouTube I could imagine him being the new Nico, making click bait videos. I’d love to see it to be honest

[Requiem84]

Who’s rewriting history. It’s there for all to see. Ric beat him in the first 2 seasons. He was beating him in the 3rd until Hungary. He had 3 poles to Max’s 0 as teammates. Ric had 4 DNFs from Hungary on in 2018, Max had 0. Max was ahead on the qualifying averages I think.

There is no agenda, I like Max. I just don’t think he’s the great hope that people make him out to be. Given their time as teammates, I find it difficult to place Max above Ric.

If you want honest debate I suggest you actually provide facts to counter my points.

 

What is dishonest is that you are (purposely?) selective with your facts. 

 

If you bring in Ricciardo's retirements, then it's fair to also look at the misfortune Max had in 2017 when his car broke down at various moments when he was in very strong positions. 

 

In 2016 Verstappen, in only his second year in F1, made a mid season jump to RB. His first race was lucky (although fending of Raikkonen was impressive). Ricciardo was better that year, for sure. Not surprising against a guy with only 2,5 seasons in single seaters who made a mid season transfer without any experience in the car. But already in Austria that year, he managed to get a P2, whereas Ricciardo only got a P5. In the course of that season Verstappen closed the gap to Ricciardo

 

In the end 2016 was: 1 win each, 8 podiums for Ricciardo, 7 for Verstappen. Quite close wasn't it? 

 

In 2017 he was the faster driver overall, which was widely acknowledged. Reliability skewed the actual comparison. Ricciardo admitted as much himself when early 2018 when he said he had been overdriving the car to keep up with Verstappen in 2018. He vowed to do it differently in 2018, but the qualifying gap remained at a steady 0.2 and Max being ahead in most races. 

 

Apart from his very poor 2018 starting streak, Verstappen outperformed Ricciardo since 2017. Interestingly, the F1 t eam principals already ranked Verstappen higher than Ricciardo in 2016:

 

AUTOSPORT'S 2016 TEAM BOSS'S TOP 10

1 Lewis Hamilton, 234 points (No change)
2 Max Verstappen, 183 (Up two places)
3 Nico Rosberg, 176 (No change)
4 Daniel Ricciardo, 133 (Up five)
5 Sebastian Vettel, 90 (Down three)
6 Fernando Alonso, 67 (No change)
7 Kimi Raikkonen, 61 (Up three)
8 Sergio Perez, 52 (No change)
9 Valtteri Bottas, 26 (Down two)

10 Carlos Sainz Jr, 25 (New entry)

 

 

Same for 2017:

 

Autosport's 2017 team bosses' top 10   DRIVER POINTS CHANGE 1   Lewis Hamilton 233 - 2   Max Verstappen 143 - 3   Sebastian Vettel 141 Up 2 4   Daniel Ricciardo 112 - 5   Esteban Ocon 73 New entry 6   Fernando Alonso 65 - 7 =   Kimi Raikkonen 49 - 7 =   Carlos Sainz Jr 49 Up 2 9   Nico Hulkenberg 47 New entry 10   Valtteri Bottas 39 Down 1

 

Same for 2018:

 

Team principals' top 10 2018   DRIVER POINTS CHANGE 1. Lewis Hamilton 218 - 2. Max Verstappen 139 - 3. Sebastian Vettel 105 - 4. Fernando Alonso 103 Up 2 5. Daniel Ricciardo 85 Down 1 6. Charles Leclerc 71 New entry 7. Kimi Raikkonen 57 - 8. Valtteri Bottas 38 Up 3 9. Esteban Ocon 27 Down 4 10. Nico Hulkenberg 23 Down 1

 

Same for 2019:

 

Team principals' top 10 2019   DRIVER POINTS CHANGE 1. Lewis Hamilton 169 - 2. Max Verstappen 146 - 3. Charles Leclerc 124 Up 3 4. Valtteri Bottas 68 Up 4 5. Sebastian Vettel 58 Down 2 6. Alex Albon 57 New entry 7. Carlos Sainz Jr 55 New entry 8. Daniel Ricciardo 49 Down 3 9. George Russell 41 New entry 10. Lando Norris 38 New entry

 

So, apparently the F1 team principals have quite a different view than you.

Edited by Requiem84, 22 September 2020 - 07:29.

[Augurk]

Max hasn’t even experienced putting a championship challenge together yet against a guy about to win his 7th... I think it’s fair enough to guess that Max would be quicker than Lewis sometimes, but to beat him to a title, all things equal, my oh my, no chance!

You have exactly as many reasons for saying "no chance" to that than I or anyone else would have in saying Max would definitely crush Lewis in the same machinery.

We just have no basis for any such claim. 

 

And blaming any driver in the current grid for not having titles is just shambolic. Three minor things had to change for us to not have any champions (bar Lewis) on the grid next year - Kimi calls quits, Vettel would take a sabattical or retire and Alonso wasn't hired back. Small things that were very much in the realm of possibility this year. That's how dominant Mercedes has been. Any of the new generation of drivers have never had the chance to compete. The only driver you can blame for not having titles these past years is Bottas. And even he was put in an uphill battle from the start, joining the team where Lewis had already won 2 titles and was driving 4 years and was very much built around at that time. 

Edited by Augurk, 22 September 2020 - 07:34.

[Requiem84]

A lot of dishonest stuff going on in here... 

[Lights]

Who’s rewriting history. It’s there for all to see. Ric beat him in the first 2 seasons. He was beating him in the 3rd until Hungary. He had 3 poles to Max’s 0 as teammates. Ric had 4 DNFs from Hungary on in 2018, Max had 0. Max was ahead on the qualifying averages I think.

There is no agenda, I like Max. I just don’t think he’s the great hope that people make him out to be. Given their time as teammates, I find it difficult to place Max above Ric.

If you want honest debate I suggest you actually provide facts to counter my points.

 

It indeed was there for all to see but I suspect you didn't see a lot apart from the point standings. Which are a poor basis for comparison when both drivers suffer many reliability issues.

 

On that basis, I disagree Ric beat Max in 2017, and for 2018, despite you framing it like Hungary was as some sort of pivotal moment whereafter Ricciardo lost merely due to unreliability, I disagree as well.

 

Personally, in 2017 I found Max the better driver in 9 races (AUS CHN RUS MON CAN MAL JPN MEX BRA), Ricciardo in 5 (AZE AUT HUN ITA ARE), with 6 too close to call (BHR ESP GBR BEL SIN USA).

In 2018 I found Max the better driver in 14 races (ESP CAN FRA AUT GBR GER HUN BEL ITA SIN RUS USA MEX BRA), Ricciardo in 5 (AUS BHR CHN AZE MON), with 2 too close to call (JPN ARE).

 

Some 'facts' that you might appreciate more, ahead in races where both drivers finished:

2017: 5-2 for Max

2018: 8-4 for Max

 

Adding 2016 (8-7 for Ric) it makes 20-14 for Max. It's pretty easy to place him above Ric based on their time together. Max was quicker most of the time and while he still had a lot to learn and made some dumb mistakes, he was still the better driver in a significant amount of races.

Edited by Lights, 22 September 2020 - 08:58.

[shure]

Why.. cause they didn’t need him. That’s why. They’ve done pretty well for themselves in their decisions I would say.

Same can’t be said of RB. Ricciardo left because of the internal environment at RB. He didn’t feel he was being treated fairly after a few incidents with Max. That’s the point, he saw the writing on the wall of Team Max. Everything since his announcement had kind of proven that point.

Max is bigger then the team in how they have structured it. It’s not RB.

When things go well. It’s all Max.
When things go bad, it’s Honda this RB that.
When people keep pointing out how ridiculous it is to not have a proper proven fast driving alongside him then just blow it off as they don’t have anyone to even when clearly there are. RB just don’t want to pull a master stroke and put a good guy there and disrupt Max from mature Max back to wheel banging teammate Max.

It’s fine. Just why would Max leave the team built around him. He’ll won’t have that anywhere else with the opportunity RB affords him with or without Honda and if they forced to go back to Renault at least for 2-4years there is no other option better.

Everything you've said here could equally apply to Mercedes.

 

Ricciardo left because he couldn't handle being beaten by Max.  If he was better than him, he would have had nothing to fear.  Red Bull have shown that they don't care who's in the seat as long as they are winning.  When Ricciardo beat Vettel, they didn't do anything to prevent that happening despite the fact that Vettel was most definitely their golden boy and had given them multiple titles.  Ricciardo had no real reason to suspect he wouldn't get a fair deal with Max there and Red Bull didn't treat him badly. When Vettel left Red Bull he was accused of running away from Ricciardo, so how come that same standard isn't being applied with the Ricciardo/Max dynamic?

 

Red Bull have tried to put a more competitive driver in the car, limited only by their long-standing policy of promoting from within.  Even Max has been critical of Albon and his lack of performance, so it's not like he's enjoying the situation now.  But having a support driver is no different to Mercedes' policy, where the other driver is clearly there to support Lewis.  The only difference is that they have a car which allows them much greater scope as they don't have much to worry about from a WCC perspective

[Kao18]

Consistency over a race distance and over a season have other factors that contribute as well - typically the car and the team. I remember during Vettel's RBR days, he was hailed for exactly the same thing, but my argument was always that consistency was more a function of other factors. And when the car wasn't there any more, Vettel's consistency suddenly disappeared.

You are absolutely right, so you'd agree than that Hamilton has been able to be so consistent over the years thanks in large part to the car he has been driving.

Who is to say if the car was not there anymore Hamilton would not become like Vettel?

Maybe not but we dont know for sure. He does sound a little panicky at times even driving a Merc.

Would Hamilton score more points than Max in the current RB? I highly doubt it, Max was even outscoring Bottas until Monza and two dnf's.

I respect Lewis titles and all but what I have seen from Max over the years is enough to convinvce me he is special and at least on the same level as Lewis.

Most people probaly do regardless of the frustration and hate being vented here at times.

Edited by Kao18, 22 September 2020 - 08:42.

[v@sh]

Ricciardo left because he couldn't handle being beaten by Max.  If he was better than him, he would have had nothing to fear.  Red Bull have shown that they don't care who's in the seat as long as they are winning.  When Ricciardo beat Vettel, they didn't do anything to prevent that happening despite the fact that Vettel was most definitely their golden boy and had given them multiple titles.  Ricciardo had no real reason to suspect he wouldn't get a fair deal with Max there and Red Bull didn't treat him badly. When Vettel left Red Bull he was accused of running away from Ricciardo, so how come that same standard isn't being applied with the Ricciardo/Max dynamic?

 

If you think that's the only reason why Ricciardo left then you are sorely mistaken. I think everyone can pretty much say here that Max was the faster/better driver over their time together but Ricciardo definitely gave him a fight. They still respect each other's skills as does Marko and you hardly hear praise from Marko himself.

 

Ricciardo had no real reason to suspect he wouldn't get a fair deal with Max there? Ha you've got to be joking especially when Horner/Marko come out publicly saying they want to build the team around Verstappen and make him the youngest WDC. Baku and Spain 2016 are examples of why Ricciardo would want to leave.

 

Come equipment, I have no doubt RBR would have treated Ricciardo equally and financially as well. When it comes to other smaller stuff like strategy calls that all adds up when it comes to championships, it's clear to see who is favoured.

 

EDIT: re your point with Vettel, yes he was accused of that but he himself made no excuses and said Ricciardo was better that season. Not only this, he was beaten far more comprehensively than Ricciardo was vs Verstappen. Also Ricciardo/Verstappen had already been team-mates for 2.5 seasons. Vettel only had the one season, so Ricciardo moving after 2.5 seasons is not really running away + DR was no longer contracted to RBR and was free to look around whereas Seb escaped via a clause in his contract. Quite different circumstances IMO. You cannot just apply one logic without looking at the context of the team-mate battle + other factors.

Edited by v@sh, 22 September 2020 - 08:47.

[smitten]

Come equipment, I have no doubt RBR would have treated Ricciardo equally and financially as well.

 

Yeah, nah.  It's not like they have a history of a 'number two driver' who doesn't get the latest gear when fighting a favoured team-mate, or anything.

[Augurk]

If you think that's the only reason why Ricciardo left then you are sorely mistaken. I think everyone can pretty much say here that Max was the faster/better driver over their time together but Ricciardo definitely gave him a fight. They still respect each other's skills as does Marko and you hardly hear praise from Marko himself.

 

Ricciardo had no real reason to suspect he wouldn't get a fair deal with Max there? Ha you've got to be joking especially when Horner/Marko come out publicly saying they want to build the team around Verstappen and make him the youngest WDC. Baku and Spain 2016 are examples of why Ricciardo would want to leave.

 

Come equipment, I have no doubt RBR would have treated Ricciardo equally and financially as well. When it comes to other smaller stuff like strategy calls that all adds up when it comes to championships, it's clear to see who is favoured.

You were mostly reasonable in that assessment. I think Red Bull has a tendency to shift their focus to the faster driver and in that essence might create a worse environment for the other driver. Ricciardo did give Max a fight, which is very respectable if Max is anywhere near as good as he seems to be. 

The team surely handled the Baku incident wrongly - however Spain 2016? That's just wide off the mark. Both Ferrari and Red Bull misjudged strategy with their lead driver with an extra stop, seeing their "second" drivers being able to stretch that second stint to the end with good pace at that.

 

There was nothing that Red Bull did in Spain 2016 that willingly favored Verstappen or hindered Ricciardo, on the contrary. And there were other instances where they "favored" Ricciardo - their fight in Malaysia was called to an end even if Max was seemingly faster in second place, for instance.

[Augurk]

Yeah, nah.  It's not like they have a history of a 'number two driver' who doesn't get the latest gear when fighting a favoured team-mate, or anything.

Surely if there were any indications Max received better gear than you would be happy to provide examples.

I only remember a time when Ricciardo got new parts before Max (for instance Monaco 2016). 

[ForzaFormula]

And now all the max fans get upset at the slightest bit of criticism and not calling him a god, because that's how many are seeing him a god who could beat all easily. 

[Beri]

And now all the max fans get upset at the slightest bit of criticism and not calling him a god, because that's how many are seeing him a god who could beat all easily. 

 

Looks a lot like the Hamilton fans that are going round with pitchforks and torches if Hamilton doesnt win.

[v@sh]

You were mostly reasonable in that assessment. I think Red Bull has a tendency to shift their focus to the faster driver and in that essence might create a worse environment for the other driver. Ricciardo did give Max a fight, which is very respectable if Max is anywhere near as good as he seems to be. 

The team surely handled the Baku incident wrongly - however Spain 2016? That's just wide off the mark. Both Ferrari and Red Bull misjudged strategy with their lead driver with an extra stop, seeing their "second" drivers being able to stretch that second stint to the end with good pace at that.

 

There was nothing that Red Bull did in Spain 2016 that willingly favored Verstappen or hindered Ricciardo, on the contrary. And there were other instances where they "favored" Ricciardo - their fight in Malaysia was called to an end even if Max was seemingly faster in second place, for instance.

 

When I referred to Spain 2016, that was my mistake. I remember Ricciardo not getting the priority call but strategy definitely played a part - they could have easily just continued to keep Ricciardo out and see how the other initial stoppers panned out given that the top 3/4 were bunched up at the time. It seemed high risk and had a high probability of coming out into traffic at the time given that DR was controlling the race in the first stint. Since strategy is important in Spain given it is notorious for overtaking and track position counts a lot. Either way, my point remains in regards to strategy calls etc. even if I got Spain wrong 

 

As for the 'number two driver' and Webber, what hindered Webber was he was not part of the RBR driver academy and therefore not in Marko's interests. I do remember RBR had a policy in place that whoever was ahead in the WDC championship got the new part if there was only one. I don't know if that is still the case.

Edited by v@sh, 22 September 2020 - 09:15.

[fed up]

Looks a lot like the Hamilton fans that are going round with pitchforks and torches if Hamilton doesnt win.

 

Hamilton fans don't need to go around with pitchforks if he doesn't win. Lewis has won 90 races, 1 short of the all time record. He is proven, we don't need to defend anything. What some of us find somewhat galling is the barefaced cheek of some that compare a driver (Max) who has won a mere 10% of his win total and hasn't even be at the sharp end of competing for a WDC never mind winning one, with a driver that has won all before him.

 

Yes we can accept Max has potential, but when you start comparing apples with oranges, we can't help but put you in your place, with respect of course.

[Augurk]

When I referred to Spain 2016, that was my mistake. I remember Ricciardo not getting the priority call but strategy definitely played a part - they could have easily just continued to keep Ricciardo out and see how the other initial stoppers panned out given that the top 3/4 were bunched up at the time. Strategy is important in Spain given it is notorious for overtaking and track position counts a lot. Either way, my point remains in regards to strategy calls etc. even if I got Spain wrong 

 

As for the 'number two driver' and Webber, what hindered Webber was he was not part of the RBR driver academy and therefore not in Marko's interests. I do remember RBR had a policy in place that whoever was ahead in the WDC championship got the new part if there was only one. I don't know if that is still the case.

I think most strategy calls during their time together were made in favor of the car ahead on track in the pit stop window - as most teams do. Spain obviously in hindsight ended up the other way around, but that's only in hindsight. At the time they pit Ricciardo and Ferrari pitted Vettel it seemed like the favourable call. 

 

I think a policy of giving the leading driver (WDC wise) the new parts first if there weren't enough isn't necessarily unfair but understandable. Of course the front wing incident added a bit of drama for Webber, as Vettel destroyed his and then got Webbers new front wing, which is a bit harsh. But such a policy doesn't indicate any favouratism towards one particular driver. 

[shure]

If you think that's the only reason why Ricciardo left then you are sorely mistaken. I think everyone can pretty much say here that Max was the faster/better driver over their time together but Ricciardo definitely gave him a fight. They still respect each other's skills as does Marko and you hardly hear praise from Marko himself.

 

Ricciardo had no real reason to suspect he wouldn't get a fair deal with Max there? Ha you've got to be joking especially when Horner/Marko come out publicly saying they want to build the team around Verstappen and make him the youngest WDC. Baku and Spain 2016 are examples of why Ricciardo would want to leave.

 

Come equipment, I have no doubt RBR would have treated Ricciardo equally and financially as well. When it comes to other smaller stuff like strategy calls that all adds up when it comes to championships, it's clear to see who is favoured.

 

EDIT: re your point with Vettel, yes he was accused of that but he himself made no excuses and said Ricciardo was better that season. Not only this, he was beaten far more comprehensively than Ricciardo was vs Verstappen. Also Ricciardo/Verstappen had already been team-mates for 2.5 seasons. Vettel only had the one season, so Ricciardo moving after 2.5 seasons is not really running away + DR was no longer contracted to RBR and was free to look around whereas Seb escaped via a clause in his contract. Quite different circumstances IMO. You cannot just apply one logic without looking at the context of the team-mate battle + other factors.

they wanted to build the team around him because he was the rising star.  But Ricciardo had opportunity to prove them wrong.

 

Re: Vettel yes agree context is important.  And Vettel moved to Ferrari, which was seen by most as a shrewd move since it was already clear even then that only a manufacturer had a chance of winning in the hybrid era.  It was a step up.  Whereas Ricciardo clearly traded down.  He went to a worse team, one which had only had their blushes spared from a worst performing manufacturer perspective by Honda's dismal failings, and one which was severely under-funded compared to their peers.  It was also the least well resourced and the only one not to even have a full chassis dyno, which showed.  From a performance perspective Ricciardo certainly wasn't making a sensible move.

[Beri]

Hamilton fans don't need to go around with pitchforks if he doesn't win. Lewis has won 90 races, 1 short of the all time record. He is proven, we don't need to defend anything. What some of us find somewhat galling is the barefaced cheek of some that compare a driver (Max) who has won a mere 10% of his win total and hasn't even be at the sharp end of competing for a WDC never mind winning one, with a driver that has won all before him.

 

Yes we can accept Max has potential, but when you start comparing apples with oranges, we can't help but put you in your place, with respect of course.

 

I like it how you talk in the "us" and "we" form. And to top it off "we can't help but put you in your place". Its quite laughable such a reply, certainly since you wanted to discredit the pitchforks and torches remark.

 

And by the way, Im by no means a Verstappen fan, I was only bringing this up because both drivers have a strong following who would go far to defend their favorite and up until my post it was just pretty one sided.

[baddog]

I'm not having people talk Max down, he has been amazing since early last year. Of course his actual career results are downright disappointing for how long he has been in F1 but that really reflects the domination, with the only apparently competitive at times seats at Ferrari already taken (and in the end not winning seats). I genuinely don't think anyone could have done better than he has with the seat he has.

 

Lets hope things do change around and he can get some stats to reflect his performances.

[Augurk]

In the end it's all opinions and all opinions are equal. Even though some opinions are obviously more equal than others. 

[noikeee]

Who’s rewriting history. It’s there for all to see. Ric beat him in the first 2 seasons. He was beating him in the 3rd until Hungary. He had 3 poles to Max’s 0 as teammates. Ric had 4 DNFs from Hungary on in 2018, Max had 0. Max was ahead on the qualifying averages I think.

There is no agenda, I like Max. I just don’t think he’s the great hope that people make him out to be. Given their time as teammates, I find it difficult to place Max above Ric.

If you want honest debate I suggest you actually provide facts to counter my points.

Okay, you've either watched a different championship to me the last few years, or are posting to provoke reactions, so let's leave it at that.

[PayasYouRace]

Unfortunately this thread has evolved into the usual "My dad is bigger than your dad" nonsense. I'll remind you that the house rules state:

 

• General driver threads are now banned. Threads can still be started to discuss issues affecting a single driver, but this must be with a specific remit or point of discussion, such as the possibility of them racing in a particular series or team.
• Driver vs. driver threads are only welcome for team mates where a reasonable assessment of their respective abilities can be gauged. Other comparison threads which pit driver against driver for no apparent reason are unwelcome.

The discussion has long since moved on from a single issue and the comparisons with Hamilton or dragging over the old comparisons with Ricciardo are creeping in.

 

Thread closed. If you genuinely think Max will leave Red Bull, that's what the silly season thread is for.

[SophieB]

Thank you to the people who reported what a total cowpat this thread, ostensibly about whether Verstappen will stay at Red Bull had become, it is appreciated. I see it has morphed into Who is the Best Driver and then a grim detour Who Has The Shittiest Fans and now something of a free for all.

 

Please don’t do it, it looks insecure, petty and it breeds stupid feuds.

[SophieB]

Lol so bad two mods closed it.