353 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Autosport:

 

 

 

Kevin Magnussen and Nicholas Latifi have been summoned to the stewards over the safety car restart pile-up that triggered the first red flag in Formula 1's Tuscan Grand Prix.

F1's first race at Mugello had to be halted following an early safety car restart, when a number of cars in the middle of the pack collided on the start-finish straight.

With race leader Valtteri Bottas having left his acceleration until the last moment, the back of the pack appeared to have gone early - and the concertina effect triggered the crash.

As Magnussen braked to avoid slowing cars ahead, he was hit from behind by Alfa Romeo's Antonio Giovinazzi, with Carlos Sainz Jr and Latifi also being eliminated in the chain of events.

 

 

Pretty nasty incident. Do the restart rules need to be looked at again? Or is it just a driver discipline issue in the pack?

 

[statman]

rules are fine, just dumb drivers doing dumb things

 

I might have to throw a party when the Haas drivers, Latifi and Giovinazzi are finally out of F1

[TheFish]

The restart line should have been in the final turn to avoid this happening.

A lot of drivers could have behaved better there, thankfully it wasn’t worse.

[TomNokoe]

https://forums.autos...tarts-for-2019/

"Overtaking will no longer be allowed between the first safety car line and the start/finish line (control line)."

[PayasYouRace]

I'd say it's just driver discipline and lack of experience in the middle of the pack. Certainly Bottas drove in a consistent and safe manner. Most series expect higher levels of discipline at restarts, where the drivers aren't allowed to accelerate until a green flag/light shows.

 

If I'd change one thing, it would be not having the green lights at the line until the leader crosses the line. I think that was one of the main factors in those further back thinking the leaders had bolted. They cant' see what the leaders are doing, but they can see the lights.

[ARTGP]

I'd say it's just driver discipline and lack of experience in the middle of the pack. Certainly Bottas drove in a consistent and safe manner. Most series expect higher levels of discipline at restarts, where the drivers aren't allowed to accelerate until a green flag/light shows.

 

If I'd change one thing, it would be not having the green lights at the line until the leader crosses the line. I think that was one of the main factors in those further back thinking the leaders had bolted. They cant' see what the leaders are doing, but they can see the lights.

 

 

I felt Bottas swerving side to side (nearly across the whole track obviously trying to throw off Hamilton), was a bit too much though. Keep a tighter line. You shouldn't be allowed to veer left and right so aggressively. It just adds to the confusion of drivers gunning it, then slamming on the brakes again.

Edited by ARTGP, 13 September 2020 - 16:35.

[Augurk]

Looking at replays that was Russells fault if anyones.

[SophieB]

I certainly don’t think Bottas did anything inconsistent with the established practice, and I’m not sure he could have done anything more (within reason) to prevent what happened.

[Disgrace]

The onboard from Latifi actually seems to vindicate him somewhat. Magnussen and Russell definitely go before him.

[Kev00]

Everyone knew that the lead driver would wait until the last moment before bolting due to the nature of the track. The drivers knew, the commentators knew, and anyone who watched the F2 or F3 races knew. The idiots racing at the back only had themselves to blame.

[Kev00]

Looking at replays that was Russells fault if anyones.

I think so too. I said in the race thread it looked like he backed off the car ahead and then accelerated to try and get a run on them and the cars behind followed. Magnussen and Latifi then had to slam on their brakes alongside him and the rest crashed into them.

[uzsjgb]

I felt Bottas swerving side to side (nearly across the whole track obviously trying to throw off Hamilton), was a bit too much though. Keep a tighter line. You shouldn't be allowed to veer left and right so aggressively. It just adds to the confusion of drivers gunning it, then slamming on the brakes again.

 

Bottas was not trying to throw off Hamilton, he was warming up his tires, before the restart. As soon as Bottas restarted and accelerated he went straight.

[thegamer23]

[l12mcg]

The onboard from Latifi actually seems to vindicate him somewhat. Magnussen and Russell definitely go before him.

Russell might be the route cause there but he also doesn’t go as hard as Latifi and those behind him and he slows down pretty carefully. I think he accelerated and then pretty quickly backed out - need to see onboard with Mag first before I can be sure, might be his fault properly or it might be the other’s fault.

Basically, they all made a huge mess of it and it was terribly dangerous. But it is one of those 3 that caused it for sure.

Ok seen some onboard from Mag now, need more than that video above.

Need Russell’s onboard as well, could be whoever was in front of him that caused it all.

Edited by l12mcg, 13 September 2020 - 16:46.

[SilverArrow31]

Russell caused this by jumping to early and then braking, annoyed no media has pushed him on this

[SophieB]

@tgruener

Daniil Kvyat has been summoned to the FIA stewards to talk about his involvement in the SC restart mess.

 

#AMuS #F1 #TuscanGP

[Peat]

Is Russell the car ahead of KMag at that point? If so, then yeah, he should get it in the neck too. 

[Massa]

Russell caused this by jumping to early and then braking, annoyed no media has pushed him on this

We have to see if the car ahead of him have done the same.

[masa90]

This was compilation of many drivers doing bad job at the back of the field.

 

Luckily no one was hurt.

[Izzyeviel]

is it normal on restarts that the leader drives slowly until he gets to the start/finish line? ive never noticed before.

[SilverArrow31]

We have to see if the car ahead of him have done the same.

They didnt, the field was almost in two halfs at the start with a big gap ahead of Russell, he floored it, then braked realising his error, guy behind him did the same, then guy behind him, then four cars where suddenly in the same area of race track and boom

Edited by SilverArrow31, 13 September 2020 - 16:48.

[Disgrace]

is it normal on restarts that the leader drives slowly until he gets to the start/finish line? ive never noticed before.

 

At Baku, usually, due to the long run to the first corner. No point going early only to be slipstreamed out of the lead.

[PayasYouRace]

is it normal on restarts that the leader drives slowly until he gets to the start/finish line? ive never noticed before.

 

It's not normally a huge disadvantage to go early. At most other tracks, if you make an early break you protect your position. Here, with the length of the straight, going early leaves you vulnerable to the cars behind, and that showed in the support races by the looks of it.

[P123]

Not sure it's anybody in particulars fault.  Latifi was the only one to pass another car, but he was also generally unsighted  to what was happening beyond Magnussen.  They all try and anticipate, just some got ahead of themselves.

[Atreiu]

I thought the SC and Bottas were to blame at first. However I am very interested in reading what people have to say about restart rules and I do not mind at all changing my opinion based on what you guys say.

[rodlamas]

I thought the SC and Bottas were to blame at first. However I am very interested in reading what people have to say about restart rules and I do not mind at all changing my opinion based on what you guys say.

Bottas restarted like Vettel in Baku 2018 and Verstappen in Brazil 2019. There were no troubles +  nobody was punished. Bottas kept throttle steady and the crash began before he went.

[smitten]

I'd say it's just driver discipline and lack of experience in the middle of the pack. Certainly Bottas drove in a consistent and safe manner. Most series expect higher levels of discipline at restarts, where the drivers aren't allowed to accelerate until a green flag/light shows.

 

If I'd change one thing, it would be not having the green lights at the line until the leader crosses the line. I think that was one of the main factors in those further back thinking the leaders had bolted. They cant' see what the leaders are doing, but they can see the lights.

 

Yeah, the Haas' and Williams' probably didn't do a lot of prep for leading a SC restart so got caught out that the leader didn't go when they do on most other circuit.  Not an excuse, but your point about the position lights is valid - we all know the speedlimt increases AFTER the sign, but we all accelerate as we approach it.

[Atreiu]

Seems to me the track should go green for everyone instead of this wait for the line to overtake rule.

[Disgrace]

Bottas restarted like Vettel in Baku 2018 and Verstappen in Brazil 2019. There were no troubles +  nobody was punished. Bottas kept throttle steady and the crash began before he went.

 

Yeah. For a restart accident for which the lead driver was actually at fault, look no further than Matshushita in GP2. He got himself a race ban for this one.

Edited by Disgrace, 13 September 2020 - 16:56.

[PayasYouRace]

Seems to me the track should go green for everyone instead of this wait for the line to overtake rule.

 

That would be another good alternative. Just have the track go green as soon as the leader crosses the restart line (whether that is the S/F line or one of the SC lines like it was a few years ago).

[Fastcake]

As I said on the race thread, the old safety car restart rules would have prevented this. Allowing racing to start again on the safety car line, usually on the corner or two before the pit entry, means the drivers are going to restart at a normal speed and stay in line before racing is allowed.

Wouldn’t do anything at Baku of course, which has a massive straight before you even get to the pits, but would work everywhere else.

Edited by Fastcake, 13 September 2020 - 16:59.

[ANF]

The onboard from Latifi actually seems to vindicate him somewhat. Magnussen and Russell definitely go before him.

I think that video shows that the field was too spread out. That's what caused the massive speed difference that could have led to serious injuries.

I'm not saying it was against the rules, but maybe the rules should change. Cars must be no more than ten car lengths apart behind the safety car – maybe that distance should be reduced to something like three car lengths from the point at which the lights on the safety car are turned out?

On the other hand, article 39.13 in the sporting regulations says:
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

Watching Latifi's onboard, one has to wonder what Magnussen doing, slowing in the middle of the final corner.

[Peat]

Why was that removed? because of too close for comfort times when the leader caught the SC before it had pitted? 

[Red5ive]

Its just one of those things that happen now and again - the young drivers will learn from it - no need for yet more knee jerk rule changes and artificial procedures to further dumb down the sport.

[masa90]

They were close to crash even before finishstraight?? What the hell were they doing.

[Fastcake]

Question here, does anyone know why the finish line was so long down the straight?

Usually it is equal to the pit entry, but here it was at the exit.

[rattymouse]

I felt Bottas swerving side to side (nearly across the whole track obviously trying to throw off Hamilton), was a bit too much though. Keep a tighter line. You shouldn't be allowed to veer left and right so aggressively. It just adds to the confusion of drivers gunning it, then slamming on the brakes again.

 

^This.  A thousand times this.  Bottas was extremely unsafe here and deserves at least a one race ban for such activity.  You could clearly see the field massively bunching up when he started this crazy back and forth movement.  It was a rank amateur move and that is being exceedingly generous.  

[absinthedude]

Big crash, and it's possible that the halo was useful in there.....not sure that Latifi is the guilty party, but it's pretty complicated. 

[Kalmake]

Using the SC line for restarts would help on this track. The way track dips before grid hides the leader from back half of the pack.

Edited by Kalmake, 13 September 2020 - 17:12.

[Al.]

This video from a high camera in the pitlane.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=z7cAi6nBnDU

 

If you pause it at around 7-8 secs you see a clear separation between 10 & 11th placed cars

 

The cars 11th  and back accelerate as a train tucked under each others Rear Wing.

Then the 11th place car (which was an Alpha Tauri) slows (cos he can see the pack hasn't gone) and chaos ensues behind

 

Edit: and Kyvat was summoned to the stewards at 18.30 about an hour later than Latifi or Magnussen

 

Edit: pointed out (correctly below) that the 11th place car was Russell.

Edited by Al., 13 September 2020 - 17:22.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Generally it's a combo of their lack of experience at this and the weirdness of how SC restarts are done in this series and when you can 'go'.

 

In this specific instance it seems like Latifi(a white car at least) was a little too far behind, as there was a midfield gap, and was rapidly closing that gap. Whether that car thought it was the start or it was just catching up to the main group, it was going faster than the average. So the cars behind that see a car taking off, as they're coming to the start line, expecting a restart(I dont know if the green was on at that point as I'm doing this from memory) so they all logically take off themselves. Then, unsighted, they all come across cars that aren't going so fast.

 

Everyone behind whatever that white car was had bad info but was acting 'correctly' based on what they knew/could see. 

 

<edit> what the dude above said

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 13 September 2020 - 17:15.

[Peat]

This video from a high camera in the pitlane.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=z7cAi6nBnDU

 

 

 

That's on Russell. He should have his collar felt for that. 

[djparky]

Its just one of those things that happen now and again - the young drivers will learn from it - no need for yet more knee jerk rule changes and artificial procedures to further dumb down the sport.

Agreed....the F3 and F2 drivers didn't have any problems with it, neither does Indy Car or NASCAR. And F1 has done plenty of safety car restarts as well

[Disgrace]

Yep, that view is pretty definitive. Russell tries to be clever but gets it wrong and causes the accident.

[Baddoer]

This video from a high camera in the pitlane.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=z7cAi6nBnDU

 

If you pause it at around 7-8 secs you see a clear separation between 10 & 11th placed cars

 

The cars 11th  and back accelerate as a train tucked under each others Rear Wing.

Then the 11th place car (which was an Alpha Tauri) slows (cos he can see the pack hasn't gone) and chaos ensues behind

 

Edit: and Kyvat was summoned to the stewards at 18.30 about an hour later than Latifi or Magnussen 

11th place is Russel in a Williams. Kvyat is on the rear of McLaren all the time, I can't see how he is responsible

[Al.]

11th place is Russel in a Williams. Kvyat is on the rear of McLaren all the time, I can't see how he is responsible

My bad, I've muddled the two, 11th was Russell,

[Red5ive]

Why have they called Kvyat then and not Russell ??

[Diablobb81]

I felt Bottas swerving side to side (nearly across the whole track obviously trying to throw off Hamilton), was a bit too much though. Keep a tighter line. You shouldn't be allowed to veer left and right so aggressively. It just adds to the confusion of drivers gunning it, then slamming on the brakes again.

While it's clear that the fault is more complex and some at the back tried to be clever i still maintain that what Bottas did was over the line : "any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart"

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 September 2020 - 17:25.

[Al.]

Why have they called Kvyat then and not Russell ??

Perhaps they made the same mistake I did?

[l12mcg]

That overhead video looks like the white car (Russell) is at fault, would still very much like to see his on board though.

If the car in front of him accelerated briefly that could also be the cause.

Because as you get further back they’ve all been accelerating longer - so it’s whoever started it.

But yeah doesn’t look good for Russell unless the data and onboard shows the cars in front of him briefly accelerating and it was just he had the bigger gap.

Edited by l12mcg, 13 September 2020 - 17:27.