353 replies to this topic

[Celloman]

The real lesson that people refuse to learn is that Safety Cars (as currently used) are dangerous.  They cause restart wrecks in every series they are used in.  F1, Indycar, NASCAR, etc.  Safety cars create crashes, but unlike physical barriers, runoff and other aspects of car and track design, no one will take a serious look at why we continue to use a thing that causes so many wrecks.  Insanity. 

 

And we all know why.  Safety cars bunch the field up and make a boring race exciting again.  We're sacrificing the safety of our drivers for entertainment.  We have the technology to create a functional system which protects track workers who have to enter the track area without trading that for risking drivers safety with restarts.  We choose not to do so because we care more about "excitement" than safety. 

By that logic we shouldn't have red flagged standing starts either because the start is probably the most dangerous part of the race. We have seen countless safety car restarts in F1 after SC became the norm following the Bianchi crash. How many of those have exactly created issues? All they have to do is move the safety car line to the start of the straight and any differences in closing speeds will be avoided.
 

[PayasYouRace]

The SC ending announcement came when Bottas was approximately at the turn 10.

Had the SC also switched the lights off that moment it would have been a very different situation in comparison to switching them off just before the last turn 15.

Hence I see no need to amend or change the current rules, just get FIA to observe their own as well as the stewards to monitor SC related regulations with the back markers.

 

Bottas would still have waited until the last moment to accelerate to racing speed no matter where the SC put its lights out, because it was his best chance of maintaining the lead.

[ANF]

If the FIA/F1 want closely packed up but safe restarts, maybe they should do it the American way, i.e. no big gaps allowed between cars and no acceleration at all allowed until the leader has reached the designated restart location:

IndyCar
7.7.1.2. After the starter gives the “one (1) lap to go” signal and prior to the restart, Cars must line up in single file formation with no gaps or lagging between Cars. (...)
7.7.1.3. At the appropriate time, the Pace Car lights will be turned off, indicating the intent to restart the Race. The leader is required to maintain the pace lap speed until reaching a point designated by INDYCAR near the start/finish line when the leader shall accelerate smoothly back to racing speed and the Green Condition will then be declared. All Car(s) must maintain their respective Track positions until the Green Condition is declared.

IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship
46.6.1. (SSR) When the Race Director has determined that the racetrack is clear and acceptable for the continuation of Competition, he instructs the Safety Car to extinguish its flashing lights and where in use, the IMSA Safety Light System or any on-track lights are also extinguished and yellow flags withdrawn, indicating that this is the final lap of this Safety Car intervention.
46.6.2. (SSR) The Safety Car may accelerate away and exits the racetrack at the location specified by the Race Director.
46.6.3. (SSR) The Car immediately behind the Safety Car prior to the restart must maintain the previous slow speed of the Safety Car, or as instructed by the Race Director, until the designated restart location. All Cars must remain packed up, in the proper order, until the restart leader initiates acceleration and the green flag is displayed. Once the green flag is displayed, the Race resumes and overtaking is permitted. Any manipulation of this pace or procedure may be penalized for False Start (Art. 44.8).

[Kalmake]

Could you give some examples please.

Instead of SC, stop the cars to pits or grid. No working on cars other than to prevent overheating. On clear move to VSC mode and return to pre-caution time gaps using the delta time system and then end the VSC as normal.

 

Technical regulations could be changed so that things in cars don't get too hot or too cold when driven slowly. This would enable very slow VSC speeds or even stopping everyone out on track.

[PayasYouRace]

The delta system could easily be used to reset the gaps to what they were before the race stoppage or SC condition. I've suggested it a few times. On the last lap before green, have the SC come in and then the leader gets a reasonable lap delta to meet. Then each car behind him gets that delta + the gap to the leader. When the leader comes round, green flag. By the time the last car on the lead lap reaches the line, he's exactly where he was before the SC. We know how much time a car loses in the pits too, so that can be added to the delta for any car that pitted under yellow.

[MikeTekRacing]

or we could pit everybody, queue them and have them start with time deltas from the last lap or something. 

[Oho]

If the FIA/F1 want closely packed up but safe restarts, maybe they should do it the American way, i.e. no big gaps allowed between cars and no acceleration at all allowed until the leader has reached the designated restart location:

 

Yeah don't know for sure but I think in US series restart may be aborted very late if the formation is not close and orderly enough approaching restart line.....

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah don't know for sure but I think in US series restart may be aborted very late if the formation is not close and orderly enough approaching restart line.....

 

That is quite common.

[Frank Tuesday]

Could you give some examples please.

Virtual Safety Car (may not always be appropriate depending upon where the track workers are)

Bunch the field before expanding back to pre SC gaps for restart

Speed limits during safety car

Single File restarts with strict speed limit between SC line and (re)start line.  

 

There's 4 that could be relatively easily implemented given the technology already in use.

 

Letting up to 20 cars play games, jostle about and guess about when to hit the gas is a recipe for disaster.  You can say don't do that, but it can be the difference between gaining and losing 5 positions on the restart.  And if drivers don't get penalzied for doing stupid stuff, they won't listen anyway. I can't imagine any restart system could be worse than what F1 uses.  

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 14 September 2020 - 18:20.

[Frank Tuesday]

If the FIA/F1 want closely packed up but safe restarts, maybe they should do it the American way, i.e. no big gaps allowed between cars and no acceleration at all allowed until the leader has reached the designated restart location:

IndyCar
7.7.1.2. After the starter gives the “one (1) lap to go” signal and prior to the restart, Cars must line up in single file formation with no gaps or lagging between Cars. (...)
7.7.1.3. At the appropriate time, the Pace Car lights will be turned off, indicating the intent to restart the Race. The leader is required to maintain the pace lap speed until reaching a point designated by INDYCAR near the start/finish line when the leader shall accelerate smoothly back to racing speed and the Green Condition will then be declared. All Car(s) must maintain their respective Track positions until the Green Condition is declared.

IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship
46.6.1. (SSR) When the Race Director has determined that the racetrack is clear and acceptable for the continuation of Competition, he instructs the Safety Car to extinguish its flashing lights and where in use, the IMSA Safety Light System or any on-track lights are also extinguished and yellow flags withdrawn, indicating that this is the final lap of this Safety Car intervention.
46.6.2. (SSR) The Safety Car may accelerate away and exits the racetrack at the location specified by the Race Director.
46.6.3. (SSR) The Car immediately behind the Safety Car prior to the restart must maintain the previous slow speed of the Safety Car, or as instructed by the Race Director, until the designated restart location. All Cars must remain packed up, in the proper order, until the restart leader initiates acceleration and the green flag is displayed. Once the green flag is displayed, the Race resumes and overtaking is permitted. Any manipulation of this pace or procedure may be penalized for False Start (Art. 44.8).

Letting the leader decide when the restart actually happens is foolish.  The benefits of leaving a gap and guessing correctly when to floor it are too great.  We can blame the drivers, but the wreck yesterday was wholly the fault of the FIA, and their terrible rules.

[northanmonkee2]

about the best explanation of  who did what and who was to blame yet 

[Frank Tuesday]

The delta system could easily be used to reset the gaps to what they were before the race stoppage or SC condition. I've suggested it a few times. On the last lap before green, have the SC come in and then the leader gets a reasonable lap delta to meet. Then each car behind him gets that delta + the gap to the leader. When the leader comes round, green flag. By the time the last car on the lead lap reaches the line, he's exactly where he was before the SC. We know how much time a car loses in the pits too, so that can be added to the delta for any car that pitted under yellow.

Every time I've suggested the same, people always complain that it would mean more laps under SC.  As if a crash on the restart don't cause more SC laps. 

 

To me, their should be 3 scenarios.  1) track workers enter the fenced in racing area, but are not on the racing track: VSC with delta times (delta times would be slow enough to ensure drivers can slow to a safe speed in the affected area).  2) track workers on the racing track, but cars can safely pass at reduced speed: SC with deltas to restore gaps once the track is clear. 3) track workers and debris on the track such that cars cannot safely pass: Red flag followed by 1 SC lap then deltas to restore gaps before restart.  More fair and more safe than current trash rules.

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 14 September 2020 - 18:33.

[AustinF1]

It is not. It's actually nothing special or unique in terms of restarts. What's special is the way the F1 guys keep such a distance to each other so they try to floor it early to get a run.

Yep. No overtaking until the Start line. It's pretty clear. Everyone hold your position behind the car in front. 

 

Can't see how the failure of the guys in back to do that is in any way on Bottas. And yeah, very slow approaches on rolling restarts are very common. Other series can handle it. Not sure why it can't be done in F1.

 

And Grosjean is an idiot.

Edited by AustinF1, 14 September 2020 - 19:44.

[AustinF1]

Nope, but there are more series than F1. Also, there's no difference in not slowing down and not speeding up towards the s/f line, than slowing down earlier like Hamilton did in Brazil. He went extremely slow. The drivers behind have to pay attention.

When 26 hormon-powered teenagers (and Jake Hughes) manages to not mess up a restart where the leading driver did the exact same thing, then I would expect the 18 "best drivers in the world" to do it.

 

Anthony Davidson described it all very well.

Exactly. All of this, and yeah, Ant is pure gold. I can't remember a time he didn't get it right.

[Jvr]

Bottas would still have waited until the last moment to accelerate to racing speed no matter where the SC put its lights out, because it was his best chance of maintaining the lead.

I agree it is quite a safe assumption he would have done the same nevertheless.

 

But, because the SC took the lights off just before the last corner, Bottas had no alternative e.g. grouping the backmarkers properly, would you agree?

 

He could not pass the SC before it had entered pit lane according to the regulations nor he could build a sufficient gap to the SC to start earlier.

 

So, we will never know. What we know Bottas had no real other alternative and yet he got bucketfuls of mud in here getting the blame. Some even called for him to be blackflagged in the heat of the moment.

Edited by Jvr, 14 September 2020 - 19:25.

[djparky]

Exactly. All of this, and yeah, Ant is pure gold. I can't remember a time he didn't get it right.

Totally agree as well...the rules are fine...just exercise a bit of caution.

[ATM]

I don’t see anything Bottas did was against the rules.

Now speaking about rules of restart, can we get a little basic on it? As we know, there is somewhere a mention about not accelerating and braking. Bottas did not do that, but some muppets inside the pack, in their vast “best drivers of the world” experience, actually did. So, before slamming Bottas, the restart procedure and the pace car lights, can we just slam first the geniuses who could not follow this very simple rule?
“Best drivers of the world” my a**.

[ANF]

This is very weird logic.

Let's say Bottas floors it immediately coming off the final corner. Do we still have a big crash? Even if someone's being cheeky and leaving a gap to the car ahead? I'm 100% sure we don't have a crash.

He could not. The track turned green when Bottas was already far away on the straight at the pit entry level.
 
EDIT: A proof of that. From that mosaic twitter video a screenshot of the positions of all the cars just before SC ended.
 
 

I don't think this is correct. I'm pretty sure Bottas could have floored it at the exit of the final corner – the green light has nothing to do with it, it's simply a green light signal for the next lap.
The leader can floor it at any point after the safety car's orange lights are extinguished (which they were just before the safety car turned into the final corner).
However, the leader cannot overtake the safety car! Not until the safety car is in pit entry, which I believe is the same as it having passed Safety Car Line 2. So in order to floor it at the corner exit, Bottas would have had to drive super slow through the last corner to leave a gap to the safety car – which he would have been entitled to do because the leader dictates the pace.

39.13
When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all teams via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.

In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the SC boards will be withdrawn and, other than on the last lap of the race, as the leader approaches the Line the yellow flags will be withdrawn and a green flag will be displayed at the Line.

Edited by ANF, 14 September 2020 - 20:52.

[milestone 11]

Yep. No overtaking until the Start line. It's pretty clear. Everyone hold your position behind the car in front. 
 
Can't see how the failure of the guys in back to do that is in any way on Bottas. And yeah, very slow approaches on rolling restarts are very common. Other series can handle it. Not sure why it can't be done in F1.
 
And Grosjean is an idiot.

The start line wasn't the overtaking line according to Scott Mitchell in the video above, the pit exit was.

[Jvr]

The start line wasn't the overtaking line according to Scott Mitchell in the video above, the pit exit was.

I am also a bit puzzled with this remark and searched for supporting documents, but did not find any.

 

Never have I heard that the pit exit line would be the overtake threshold in SC restart situations.

Edited by Jvr, 14 September 2020 - 21:31.

[Calorus]

The real lesson that people refuse to learn is that Safety Cars (as currently used) are dangerous.  They cause restart wrecks in every series they are used in.  F1, Indycar, NASCAR, etc.  Safety cars create crashes, but unlike physical barriers, runoff and other aspects of car and track design, no one will take a serious look at why we continue to use a thing that causes so many wrecks.  Insanity. 

 

And we all know why.  Safety cars bunch the field up and make a boring race exciting again.  We're sacrificing the safety of our drivers for entertainment.  We have the technology to create a functional system which protects track workers who have to enter the track area without trading that for risking drivers safety with restarts.  We choose not to do so because we care more about "excitement" than safety. 

 

Safety cars don't cause crashes, racing does - safety cars cause racing.

[azza200]

it was a big crash, but it was not massive, Spa 98 that was a massive crash. 

[Kalmake]

Safety cars don't cause crashes, racing does - safety cars cause racing.

Then it should be called the Racing Car.

[pdac]

The real purpose of the safety car is to try and keep the race within the 2 hour limit for the TV schedules.

 

True.

[AustinF1]

The start line wasn't the overtaking line according to Scott Mitchell in the video above, the pit exit was.

 

I am also a bit puzzled with this remark and searched for supporting documents, but did not find any.

 

Never have I heard that the pit exit line would be the overtake threshold in SC restart situations.

Hadn't heard that either. If it was the pit exit though, then he could have held them back even longer if he wanted to, correct?

[FirstnameLastname]

Is the problem not here that the lights went out very late & coupled with the unusually long straight + slipstream advantage... the person who would be disadvantaged the most is always going to be the person at the front of the pack. Hence waiting so long to give them less of the straight in which to slipstream him and steal 1st place.

[realracer200]

I see a lot of nonsense in this thread.

[Atreiu]

I see a lot of nonsense in this thread.

Nonsense!

[milestone 11]

I am also a bit puzzled with this remark and searched for supporting documents, but did not find any.
 
Never have I heard that the pit exit line would be the overtake threshold in SC restart situations.

  

Hadn't heard that either. If it was the pit exit though, then he could have held them back even longer if he wanted to, correct?

Presumably Austin. According to Scott Mitchell is was something the drivers were told at the briefing, I've never heard of it either.

[NixxxoN]

This will be fixed putting even more restrictions to the SC restart procedure, as always...

 

1) All must be within 1 car lenght of each other approx.

2) They will all maintain constant speed

3) Probably they could even receive a signal when the leader starts

[Nemo1965]

I have to say that RTL's Olav Mol's commentary on the whole situation was right on the money and was very funny, the seriousness of the incident not withstanding. He did a word by word play during one of the replays, of what the drivers were thinking who went too fast full on the throttle. 'Yes, we are go-go-go! Oh, we are NOT go-go-go! F*&k. Boom.' And then the words perfectly timed with the images on screen!

Edited by Nemo1965, 15 September 2020 - 08:56.

[Rinehart]

I think all the suggestions I've read about new rules and new procedures are a bit knee-jerk.

It's pretty simple, drivers don't want to crash and DNF. Either they learn from situations like this or they don't in which case I dare say they won't be an F1 driver for long and thus won't be part of the problem for long (Laffiti, Kvyat, etc)... 

[Clatter]

  Presumably Austin. According to Scott Mitchell is was something the drivers were told at the briefing, I've never heard of it either.

 

That would never surprise me. All too often there are changes announced in the driver briefings, but we, the viewers don't get told, unless the commentators get to hear about it.

[Nemo1965]

I think all the suggestions I've read about new rules and new procedures are a bit knee-jerk.

It's pretty simple, drivers don't want to crash and DNF. Either they learn from situations like this or they don't in which case I dare say they won't be an F1 driver for long and thus won't be part of the problem for long (Laffiti, Kvyat, etc)... 

 

That is a reasonable view, but the problem with other drivers creating YOUR mess has to do with the rules that are used in F1. If you are behind another driver, and you are sensible and keep a reasonable distance (not to far, not too close) and he or she (not in F1, but hey) jumps on the brakes or on the throttle too late, too early or whatever, you can be Lewis or Max and still be toast... 

Edited by Nemo1965, 15 September 2020 - 09:36.

[azza200]

Then it should be called the Racing Car.

 

The flashing lights racing car. 

[pdac]

Looking at the regulations, it's clear that, whilst they have gone into great detail about how the cars should behave whilst the safety car is out, they have failed to address exactly how they should behave between that moment when the safety car leaves the track and the race restarts. I imagine that the next sporting regulations might have a few more words about this.

[Kalmake]

Looking at the regulations, it's clear that, whilst they have gone into great detail about how the cars should behave whilst the safety car is out, they have failed to address exactly how they should behave between that moment when the safety car leaves the track and the race restarts. I imagine that the next sporting regulations might have a few more words about this.

And the drivers will not care if they even read the rules. At worst they will get a 5 second penalty FOR WHAT?! whilst gaining track position.

[SenorSjon]

Letting the leader decide when the restart actually happens is foolish.  The benefits of leaving a gap and guessing correctly when to floor it are too great.  We can blame the drivers, but the wreck yesterday was wholly the fault of the FIA, and their terrible rules.

 

Why? The leader has lost his gap. Can he at least keep one advantage? 

 

It is very odd to see junior classes do it without problem, yet the F1 'masters' make a mess of it. Some drivers didn't maintain the max 5 car gap (or has that rule been scrapped as well?) and as such floored it. They gambled on overspeed on the s/f line to make up positions. That didn't work out.

[gillesfan76]

Masi is unfit for the role. There have been too many times where he hasn't been in control, where mistakes have been made, where he's spoken bull in the press. And he can be quite aggressive with his wording too, for a FIA race director. “They can criticise all they want.". Seriously Masi? What a great way to portray yourself towards the drivers whose safety you're supposed to govern. Whiting was slow and naive as well, but at least he stayed respectful instead of getting all offended and trying to strike back in the media.

 

How Masi can say "safety is paramount" after forcing the restart to take place on the middle of that straight? Something went wrong under his responsibility, and he's deflecting it with knee-jerk responses. And this tends to be how he reacts. Just 1 week ago he was partially responsible for bringing marshals in danger at Monza by not communicating the pitlane closure effectively (which of course, according to him he did no wrong in). He's also shortening run-off areas at Spa and other tracks, and keeps insisting on installing dangerous sausage curbs wherever he can because he can't figure out how to properly manage track limits. We keep having unsafe releases in the pitlane that are hardly punished. Safety is paramount my ***.

 

It additionally reminds me of Hockenheim 2019 where drivers criticised the drag strip run-off at Hockenheim becoming an ice rink in the wet. In unprofessional fashion he joked away their concerns: It is called track limit controls!". Sigh.

 

I sincerely hope he somehow gets replaced.

 

Spot on. Unfortunately he won’t get replaced. See Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:

 

In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.

[ANF]

Why? The leader has lost his gap. Can he at least keep one advantage? 
 
It is very odd to see junior classes do it without problem, yet the F1 'masters' make a mess of it. Some drivers didn't maintain the max 5 car gap (or has that rule been scrapped as well?) and as such floored it. They gambled on overspeed on the s/f line to make up positions. That didn't work out.

It would be interesting to compare the restarts in F1, F2 and F3. When did they get the IN THIS LAP message? How bunched up was the field? When did the lights go out? What happened to the gaps between cars?

It's 10 car lengths until the point at which the lights on the safety car are turned out – from then on "drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart".

[Bleu]

I think the lights should always go out at the end of sector 2. 

[Clrnc]

Haven't read the entire thread but I am pretty sure this crash was because of Russell. He was the only one who accelerated and then braked 

[SenorSjon]

I think the lights should always go out at the end of sector 2. 

 

Some S3's are 30-40 seconds. That is way too early, 

 

The SC was fine, it was the overpaid bunch that made a mess of it. 

[P123]

Haven't read the entire thread but I am pretty sure this crash was because of Russell. He was the only one who accelerated and then braked 

He wasn't.

[milestone 11]

It would be interesting to compare the restarts in F1, F2 and F3. When did they get the IN THIS LAP message? How bunched up was the field? When did the lights go out? What happened to the gaps between cars?It's 10 car lengths until the point at which the lights on the safety car are turned out – from then on "drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart".

All the races are being re-run from 4.00pm. I'll report back.

[pdac]

Haven't read the entire thread but I am pretty sure this crash was because of Russell. He was the only one who accelerated and then braked 

 

If that were the case, he'd have been the only one whose car was damaged.

[djparky]

Noone else had a problem with the safety car restarts across the other series, over analyse any way you like- but that's what happened- it was all fine. If the junior drivers can exercise some common sense then it's not beyond the ability of the F1 grid to do the same. Dont need rule changes or anything like that- no other series has these knee jerk reactions the minute nothing more than bad luck happens

[Frank Tuesday]

Why? The leader has lost his gap. Can he at least keep one advantage? 

 

It is very odd to see junior classes do it without problem, yet the F1 'masters' make a mess of it. Some drivers didn't maintain the max 5 car gap (or has that rule been scrapped as well?) and as such floored it. They gambled on overspeed on the s/f line to make up positions. That didn't work out.

I think the cars should be restored to their pre-SC time gaps all the way down the field.  And junior classes have the same problems with restarts.  Restart rashes don't occur on every restart, but they do occur in every series that has restarts.

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 15 September 2020 - 17:58.

[ANF]

Haven't read the entire thread but I am pretty sure this crash was because of Russell. He was the only one who accelerated and then braked

Watch Kvyat two cars ahead of Russell.

https://twitter.com/...414732157825026
every driver onboard during crash

[ANF]

Noone else had a problem with the safety car restarts across the other series, over analyse any way you like- but that's what happened- it was all fine. If the junior drivers can exercise some common sense then it's not beyond the ability of the F1 grid to do the same. Dont need rule changes or anything like that- no other series has these knee jerk reactions the minute nothing more than bad luck happens

Safety car restarts in F1 were incident-free for 20 years until somebody told the safety car to keep its lights on until the final corner...