Jump to content


Photo

Across the line, backwards


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 P.Dron

P.Dron
  • Member

  • 374 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 18 September 2020 - 19:14

I remember a race at Silverstone, I think between 1969 and 1973, in which a single-seater driver crossed the line backwards in the lead of a slipstreaming pack, having spun through the exit of Woodcote. Several elements have escaped my sieve-like memmory... 

 

Was it the Club Circuit?

Was it F3 or FF?

Who was the driver? Mo Harness is the name in my sieve-like... 

Which year?

Was the win allowed?

 

Has anyone else won a race facing in the wrong direction?



Advertisement

#2 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 8,596 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 18 September 2020 - 19:48

Could be Bev Bond in 1970, but I don't think he won so this might not be the incident you are thinking of.

#3 Altitude

Altitude
  • Member

  • 208 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 18 September 2020 - 20:42

I seem to recall that Paul Stewart won a race at Snetterton when he crossed the line backwards, although I think that the race was red flagged moments later which handed him the win.



#4 P.Dron

P.Dron
  • Member

  • 374 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 18 September 2020 - 21:18

Could be Bev Bond in 1970, but I don't think he won so this might not be the incident you are thinking of.

 

Yes, could well be that. But possibly not. Damn! 



#5 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 15,555 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 19 September 2020 - 07:23

1970 International Trophy meeting 26th April F3 race - Bev was in the leading trio in the F3 race and on the last lap the Lotus spun out and crossed the line backwards in third place behind Dave Walker and Ian Ashley. The Lotus continued on its way and ended up in the trough up against the sleepers. When it was dragged out none of the wheels touched the ground.


Edited by Stephen W, 19 September 2020 - 07:24.


#6 bartchops

bartchops
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 19 September 2020 - 18:58

Yes, I remember Paul Stewart spinning out of Russell over the start line at Snetterton, 1989 F3 race whilst in the lead,just as Mika Hakkinen  crashed at the Bombhole bringing out the red flags.



#7 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 19 September 2020 - 21:56

What about a lap record spinning over the line?

 

There must have been a few circuits on which this was possible. But the one I do know about was at Symmons Plains where Niel Allen set the outright record spinning over the line in the Elfin 400 Traco Olds. I would think it was in 1967.



#8 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,151 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 19 September 2020 - 22:10

Ayrton Senna set a lap record at Donington Park by taking a short cut through the pit lane.



#9 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,016 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 20 September 2020 - 01:18

Ayrton Senna set a lap record at Donington Park by taking a short cut through the pit lane.

And Harry Schell was accused of something similar in official qualifying for the 1959 USGP at Sebring. He started 3rd much to the disadvantage of Brooks who had to settle for  4th.



#10 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 September 2020 - 01:20

And Stirling Moss got a better practice time somewhere (anyone know where?) by pretending he had a gear change problem...

 

This allowed him to drive a few feet over the pit dividing line, then he waved it was okay and got a better entry to the corner.



#11 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 1,616 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 20 September 2020 - 03:53

Yes Ray, it was 1967 for Neil Allen at Symmons.

 

2713-K-NAlen-67-TNF.jpg



#12 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,898 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 20 September 2020 - 10:23

Yes, I remember Paul Stewart spinning out of Russell over the start line at Snetterton, 1989 F3 race whilst in the lead,just as Mika Hakkinen  crashed at the Bombhole bringing out the red flags.

I know nothing of this incident, but isn't the line rather a long way after Russell's?  If you spin there, you would surely not reach the line still spinning?



#13 COUGAR508

COUGAR508
  • Member

  • 1,184 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 20 September 2020 - 10:28

Yes, I remember Paul Stewart spinning out of Russell over the start line at Snetterton, 1989 F3 race whilst in the lead,just as Mika Hakkinen  crashed at the Bombhole bringing out the red flags.

 

i remember that incident very well, too. I think that may have been Paul's only F3 win (?).  A bit fortunate perhaps, but I was very happy for him!



#14 10kDA

10kDA
  • Member

  • 978 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 20 September 2020 - 10:35

What about a lap record spinning over the line?

 

There must have been a few circuits on which this was possible. But the one I do know about was at Symmons Plains where Niel Allen set the outright record spinning over the line in the Elfin 400 Traco Olds. I would think it was in 1967.

Going on memory alone, I recall an instance where Danny Ongais got pole position by carrying enough speed past timing & scoring that he spun in the following corner (Turn 1). When someone got close to his time he just went out and did it again. I believe it was an IMSA event with the Interscope Lola T600.



#15 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 September 2020 - 11:13

In the 1919 Targa Florio, André Boillot crashed a few yards from the finishing line. He recovered and drove across the line in reverse. He was told (by a rival) that this meant disqualification so he turned round, drove back to the point where he had crashed and crossed the line again, this time in a forward gear. He still won, by over half an hour. He then cried “C’est pour la France!” and collapsed. 


Edited by Roger Clark, 20 September 2020 - 11:14.


#16 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 September 2020 - 13:05

Originally posted by ellrosso
Yes Ray, it was 1967 for Niel Allen at Symmons.
 
2713-K-NAlen-67-TNF.jpg


But it was still an Oldsmobile engine at that time...

Niel first raced it with the 4.5-litre engine, then went to a 5-litre stretch of the Olds before fitting the 5-litre Chev. He told us, "What you noticed with the 5-litre Olds was the extra torque, but with the Chev it was the sheer power!"

#17 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 September 2020 - 13:31

Whoops...

 

Shooting from the hip, I thought that would have been the big Sports Car meeting in March, when he still had the Traco Olds engine. But this was much later in the year, in November, when the Chev engine was in place.



#18 Jack-the-Lad

Jack-the-Lad
  • Member

  • 2,465 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 20 September 2020 - 15:21

He still won, by over half an hour. He then cried “C’est pour la France!” and collapsed.

Mais bien sûr!

#19 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,699 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 20 September 2020 - 15:26

Was it Reims where you could overrun the bend at the start of the straight and using the escape road in reverse get a flying start so you hit top speed sooner.



Advertisement

#20 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,051 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 20 September 2020 - 17:37

Was it Reims where you could overrun the bend at the start of the straight and using the escape road in reverse get a flying start so you hit top speed sooner.

That was indeed Reims at Thillois, a very sharp bend at the end of the main straight and the beginning of the straightish run (nearly a mile) to the start/finish area. Doing as you say gives a flying start which was so effective that you passed the timing line faster than normal so the beginning of the next lap was improved.

See https://i19.servimg....65/reims511.png

Can't really recall who did it but I think I remember Mike Hawthorn's name in that connection.


Edited by Allan Lupton, 20 September 2020 - 17:40.


#21 elansprint72

elansprint72
  • Member

  • 4,027 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 20 September 2020 - 19:27

I seem to remember (I'm usually wrong) that a Frogeye Sprite, fitted with a Jag engine, (really) won a race facing backwards when the thing seized up.



#22 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 September 2020 - 22:55

Was it Reims where you could overrun the bend at the start of the straight and using the escape road in reverse get a flying start so you hit top speed sooner.

I’d heard of drivers using the escape road but never the need to use reverse gear. I believe Moss started it in the BRM in 1959. 



#23 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,051 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 21 September 2020 - 09:04

 I believe Moss started it in the BRM in 1959. 

Yes according to the Motor Sport account of the event. It got him to only half a second behind Brooks' Ferrari, but that was only fourth fastest behind Brabham (Cooper) and Hill (Ferrari). Amazingly close by the standards of the time.
 



#24 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 21 September 2020 - 12:22

That could have been vital when the fat bloke dropped the flag...

 

You can't readily get into the slipstream unless you're right there at the beginning.



#25 Parkesi

Parkesi
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 21 September 2020 - 12:22

Two episodes:

 

Dieter Quester crossed the start/finish line on the roof!

DTM/Avus (Germany) May 1990.

The race was black-flagged after the incident and the final lap did not count.

Therefore he was able to keep his third position.

 

Wilson Fittipaldi/Brabham (Brazilian GP 1972 or 1973?) used the Interlagos outer high speed lay-out

and "blind" local marshals to gain speed before he started his qualifying lap.

He bypassed the infield (# 4/Descida do Lago) and rejoined the track at corner #13/Juncao.

 

The trick was repeated in 2008 by Hamilton who passed Glock two corners from the end :clap:



#26 Dick Dastardly

Dick Dastardly
  • Member

  • 894 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 21 September 2020 - 15:23

There have been instances in rallying where cars have crossed the Flying Finish line [where timing stops] upside down, sideways or in reverse ! 



#27 Hati

Hati
  • Member

  • 6,890 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 September 2020 - 15:33

Perhaps bit offtopic but I remember reading about fastest speed at the finish line in sea quarter mile, without boat. I tried to google it once but didn't find, if I remember it correctly it was Carrol Shelby who crashed his boat and flew out of it passing finish line.



#28 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,699 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 21 September 2020 - 17:25

I’d heard of drivers using the escape road but never the need to use reverse gear. I believe Moss started it in the BRM in 1959. 

Not reverse gear but reverse direction!



#29 funformula

funformula
  • Member

  • 515 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 21 September 2020 - 18:13

I seem to recall that Paul Stewart won a race at Snetterton when he crossed the line backwards, although I think that the race was red flagged moments later which handed him the win.

 

Paul Stewart at Snetterton crossing the line backwards from 19:51 onwards

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=iDDzJLWT2jE



#30 john aston

john aston
  • Member

  • 2,682 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 22 September 2020 - 05:45

Didn't Keke Rosberg also blag a pole in the Williams (DFV powered ) by overshooting a hairpin deliberately , driving up the escape road as far as he could and exiting the slow hairpin at big speed? Brazil ? 



#31 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 22 September 2020 - 08:56

Didn't Senna qualify third at the 1991 French Grand Prix at Magny-Cours while going backwards?



#32 Altitude

Altitude
  • Member

  • 208 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 22 September 2020 - 09:51

Didn't Keke Rosberg also blag a pole in the Williams (DFV powered ) by overshooting a hairpin deliberately , driving up the escape road as far as he could and exiting the slow hairpin at big speed? Brazil ? 

I think that was at Spa when they returned there in 1983. The finishing line and timing was located on the run down from L Source to Eau Rouge that year, with the start taking place in what is now its customary position before La Source. Rosberg drove up the road at La Source before his lap so he had a straight run to the line to start his qualifying lap, thus gaining a few mph by the time he crossed the line. Not sure where he started on the grid though.



#33 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,898 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 22 September 2020 - 10:21

Paul Stewart at Snetterton crossing the line backwards from 19:51 onwards

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=iDDzJLWT2jE

 

I know nothing of this incident, but isn't the line rather a long way after Russell's?  If you spin there, you would surely not reach the line still spinning?

Ah, that answer my question,  He didn't spin at Russells but put a wheel on the grass much nearer the finish line and rotated across it.



#34 2F-001

2F-001
  • Member

  • 4,244 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 22 September 2020 - 10:48

Somewhat similar to 10kDA's recollection above - Autospsort carried a report of a combined F2/F3 race on airfield circuit (Neubiburg, I think? 1970 maybe?) for which the finish line was within the braking zone for a straw bale chicane (who ever though that might be a good idea?). This had already caught a few out, but the eventual victor won by not braking for the chicane on the final lap and having his "off" after he had taken the flag.