103 replies to this topic

[statman]

I was watching the Allison AMA on youtube and was quite surprised he mentioned this.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=URJcgCWxl9M

 

around the 4 minute mark

 

 

Anyone else in favor? I mean I quite enjoy the US version of this, more like a recommendation instead of "get out of the way now". It doesn't bother me in Indycar where they have to fight and can be stuck in traffic. Monaco might be a problem though 

[FLB]

Obligatory:

 

[Muppetmad]

I agree with Allison. Managing traffic is a major element of other series, and it's one which should be an element of F1 too.

[jee]

They should get rid of blue flags and mirrors.

[jjcale]

I agree with Allison. Managing traffic is a major element of other series, and it's one which should be an element of F1 too.

 

Esp since F1 is really a 2 or 3 class race anyway ... 

[Atreiu]

Sure, and let Mercedes powered cars become mobile chincanes for Ferrari powered cars, and vice-versa, whenever it’s convenient.

I’d rather get rid of radios.

[ExFlagMan]

That would be up to F1/F3/F3, as they are the only series that have that stupid rule about mandatory moving over.

 

The rest of motorsport uses the age old definition that is in the Yellow Book.

[Augurk]

I like that it's a required skill in multiclass racing series, however with all B-teams around this is not a good idea. 

[noikeee]

I disagree, F1 cars are different from other motorsport series because of how sensitive they are in dirty air, and how close the backmarkers are in performance to the leaders, too. It'd be ridiculous to have trains behind cars a lap down. Imagine at Monaco. Add B team shenanigans and it's a massive can of worms.

[ArrowsLivery]

Agreed, they should. It will force the teams to setup the car for passing, instead of for qualifying.

[Starish]

I think for F1 it's a different story, in class racing its quite easy for other cars to pass but in F1 we'd see more incidents like Brazil 2018 with Ocon and Max, lapped cars would try to race rather than act like a lapped car. 

[Ben1445]

I've always wanted it to be like IndyCar (I think?) where you can defend yourself from going a lap down but after that you'll get the blue. 

 

I think that can work better for the racing and strategy. 

[Ben1445]

I think for F1 it's a different story, in class racing its quite easy for other cars to pass but in F1 we'd see more incidents like Brazil 2018 with Ocon and Max, lapped cars would try to race rather than act like a lapped car. 

What happened there? 

[Lights]

Not this again. I swear this topic comes up almost every year. Not. Even. Kidding.

 

And the answer should always be "no" as long as 1) the cars are so incredibly sensitive to dirty air, 2) we race at Monaco, and 3) the teams aren't all entirely independent. 

[pdac]

I've been calling for this for ages. Blue flags are to warn drivers that there is a faster car approaching - no more. It should be up to the faster car to pass, if they can, without any intervention from the rule book. How else will we get to a situation where the car designers will think about maybe making the cars they design less susceptible to dirty air? If it leads to Trulli trains, I'd be happy as long as they start discuss adjusting the tech regs to bring about cars that can pass each other, rather than adjusting the sporting regs to deal with it.

[Beri]

I agree with Allison. Managing traffic is a major element of other series, and it's one which should be an element of F1 too.

This.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It will lead to trains, that's why we have the rule (I think it's a post Imola '99 thing, which had some terrible stack ups behind lapped cars). It does not improve the racing. 

[MasterOfCoin]

Agreed, they should. It will force the teams to setup the car for passing, instead of for qualifying.

There's no such thing.....

[Neno]

I would get rid of Mercedes but it aint happening,    All good Allison, nice chat man. 

[Atreiu]

I've been calling for this for ages. Blue flags are to warn drivers that there is a faster car approaching - no more. It should be up to the faster car to pass, if they can, without any intervention from the rule book. How else will we get to a situation where the car designers will think about maybe making the cars they design less susceptible to dirty air? If it leads to Trulli trains, I'd be happy as long as they start discuss adjusting the tech regs to bring about cars that can pass each other, rather than adjusting the sporting regs to deal with it.

That doesn’t make sense from a sporting perspective.

1. Why would a driver need a warning flag if there are rear view mirrors and radios?

2. Having the flag as a warning does nothing to protect the leader from unsporting conduct from backmarkers.

3. The idea a backmarker could create a Trulli is akin to punishing leaders for leading. It’s farcial.

I had enough with Saubers being suspiciously tough to lap for some cars back in the 90s and 00s and I hope to never see it again.

[Kalmake]

I agree with Allison. Managing traffic is a major element of other series, and it's one which should be an element of F1 too.

What other series is it a major element in? How does it make those series better?

[Kalmake]

Shocking that Allison thinks alliances and politics influencing the races even more would be a good thing for the sport.

 

[edit] I'll write down what he said so I will never forget:

 

It [no blue flags] would also mean that teams would have to forge alliances with one another. And where you would have to be very nervous of teams that you'd fallen out with. Which would make politically incredibly intriguing as well.

Edited by Kalmake, 19 September 2020 - 16:32.

[Ben1445]

Ok, can someone just confirm that I've not got it wrong to think that F1's blue flag rules mean that if you are currently on the lead lap if the leader is coming up behind you, then you will be shown a blue flag and won't be allowed to defend your place as being on the lead lap? 

 

It's been a while since I watched F1 and I watch many series with subtly different rules... 

[Kalmake]

Ok, can someone just confirm that I've not got it wrong to think that F1's blue flag rules mean that if you are currently on the lead lap if the leader is coming up behind you, then you will be shown a blue flag and won't be allowed to defend your place as being on the lead lap? 

 

It's been a while since I watched F1 and I watch many series with subtly different rules... 

You can't defend and you have to move over. There's number of blue flags you can pass before getting a penalty.

[Ben1445]

You can't defend and you have to move over. There's number of blue flags you can pass before getting a penalty.

Even if you haven't actually been lapped yet? 

[MasterOfCoin]

Ok, can someone just confirm that I've not got it wrong to think that F1's blue flag rules mean that if you are currently on the lead lap if the leader is coming up behind you, then you will be shown a blue flag and won't be allowed to defend your place as being on the lead lap? 

 

It's been a while since I watched F1 and I watch many series with subtly different rules... 

It's it a pointless act to defend against being lapped?......

[Ben1445]

And the answer should always be "no" as long as 1) the cars are so incredibly sensitive to dirty air, 2) we race at Monaco, and 3) the teams aren't all entirely independent. 

I would like to change at least two and a half of these things so... 

 

I say bring on the blue flag ban after doing just that 

[Ben1445]

It's it a pointless act to defend against being lapped?......

Yeah, so it is, just remembered that F1 allows cars to un-lap themselves in the event of a safety car these days... 

[Lights]

I would like to change at least two and a half of these things so... 

 

I say bring on the blue flag ban after doing just that 

 

I'm now really curious which of those things you'd half change 

[Muppetmad]

What other series is it a major element in? How does it make those series better?

IndyCar and WEC, just to name a few. As for how it makes the series better... that's a pretty loaded question, since I can only give you my opinion, but I'm happy to give you that. In WEC, it's critical for the leader in LMP1 to be able to weave their way through traffic while remaining fast. It's simply what makes Le Mans in particular such a challenge. In IndyCar, being able to manage backmarkers on ovals can force the leader to compromise on their setup: rather than simply setting up the car to run well at the front in clean air, the cars at the front have to factor in being able to overtake traffic and adjust accordingly (or else risk falling like a brick once they encounter traffic). On road courses, leaders who can't make their way through the pack convincingly suffer while those behind can catch up and challenge for the lead. Simply put, it forces the leader to display greater race craft and race management. These are skills which I think F1 should reward.

[pRy]

One thing I think they do need to get rid of is DRS from backmarkers.

[pdac]

It's it a pointless act to defend against being lapped?......

 

It's pointless, perhaps, but that should be for the driver to decide.

[smitten]

Yeah, so it is, just remembered that F1 allows cars to un-lap themselves in the event of a safety car these days... 

 

They are allowed to unlap themselves if they are fast enough too, but it's incredibly rare and Ocon/Verstappen is the last time I really remember it being tried in recent years.

[PlatenGlass]

It's not all or nothing. You can have blue flags but not have the rule that the driver has to move over within 3 microseconds. Actually I think it's three marshal posts but I don't think anyone has ever said how far that actually is in reality. On average is it half a lap, a quarter of a lap, a couple of corners, one corner + 4/9 of the following straight?

 

Anyway, as others have said it would be ridiculous. Monaco or favouritism among the drivers and teams, you name it.

[Ivanhoe]

Not this again. I swear this topic comes up almost every year. Not. Even. Kidding.

 

And the answer should always be "no" as long as 1) the cars are so incredibly sensitive to dirty air, 2) we race at Monaco, and 3) the teams aren't all entirely independent. 

That’s all there is to say really. 

[LucaP]

No way...Remember that in F1 some backmarker teams are tied to other manufacturers.

For example: without blue flags, we could see a Alpha Centauri giving room to a Red Bull, but blocking a Mercedes if they are not forced to let them pass.

It would completely turn into a farce

Yes I know it seems to work in Indycar, and there are also "tied" teams there as well, but F1 is a lot more exasperated and what is seen as a lovable idiosincrasy in Indycar would turn into a mass protest in F1, Ferrari would threaten to relocate to Formula Saturn and the forum would implode

Edited by LucaP, 19 September 2020 - 19:56.

[pdac]

It's not all or nothing. You can have blue flags but not have the rule that the driver has to move over within 3 microseconds. Actually I think it's three marshal posts but I don't think anyone has ever said how far that actually is in reality. On average is it half a lap, a quarter of a lap, a couple of corners, one corner + 4/9 of the following straight?

 

Anyway, as others have said it would be ridiculous. Monaco or favouritism among the drivers and teams, you name it.

 

Perhaps if, say, they had 3 laps to let all cars that were within a specified range and had demonstrated they were faster by having beaten their lap time by a specified amount over the previous 3 laps, then I might feel that it was justified to require a car to give way.

[Marklar]

tbh they should do it once, then they see what a crappy idea it was, so we can finally move on from this frequently recurring idea.

[ArrowsLivery]

tbh they should do it once, then they see what a crappy idea it was, so we can finally move on from this frequently recurring idea.

 

We have a lot of other crappy ideas currently being used in F1, and it doesn't look like we're moving on from them? 

[Peat]

Too many teams commercially and politically entangled for it to work fairly. 

[noriaki]

The one decent argument people use in favour of reverse grids (which are in all other senses a terrible idea) is forcing the leading team(s) to make their car to work in dirty air too.

 

This would do something like that as well, but in a much more sporting way. 

[wj_gibson]

I think that as others have pointed out, the likelihood of B-teams being used as selectively mobile chicanes is too great to justify removing the blue flags these days.

[Spyker]

I quite like the idea. It would definitely add more to the sport whilst remaining a meritocracy. It's not gimmicky (like reverse grids etc).

 

The main issue is it could lead to teams playing politics to get their affiliated teams to disrupt their rivals. But as long as the deterrent was sufficient I'm sure you could make sure it doesn't happen.

 

I'm getting flashbacks of Ocon vs Verstappen.

[Rodaknee]

The one decent argument people use in favour of reverse grids (which are in all other senses a terrible idea) is forcing the leading team(s) to make their car to work in dirty air too.

 

This would do something like that as well, but in a much more sporting way. 

Brainless Brawn is attempting to get the teams (and us) to accept 4 mini races run with a reverse grid format.   There would still be 20+ other *properly* run races.  So, which team would design a car to work in dirty air for only 4 races?  Which teams would run a slower car, when the slow teams would continue to use cars that created dirty air and could possibly be faster? 

[smitten]

So, which team would design a car to work in dirty air for only 4 races? 

 

What makes us think that team COULD design a car to work in dirty air?  Why aren't they doing that now? 

 

Assuming that such a car is inherently slower (as they are not designed that way currently),  then the question is by how much.  And if the answer to that is ~1 sec then surely the end result is all cars still being designed for pure speed as they could just breeze past the 'dirty air car' in a DRS zone. 

 

Let's remember that F1 has a tendency to coalesce into similar designs over time as teams copy each other.

[Anderis]

The lack of imagination in people about consequences of various actions and changes in modern world is so prevalent that it is really astonishing to me.

 

Yeah, in an ideal world, races without blue flags sound like a fun idea. But how can anyone possibly think that F1 as it is now will not turn into a farce if blue flags are abolished?

 

When dirty air is such a serious issue, when half of the teams are politically dependent on some other teams, you'll see nothing but a contest of who can get in the way of someone else more. In a two horse title race you could even see things like number two drivers from top teams switching to fresh tyres to be as difficult to overtake as possible and then dropping a lap to block another title contender. It encourages you to do some really weird things especially once you're out of contention for a good result for whatever reason. Midfield drivers can arbitrarily decide which drivers to let go easily and which to fight as hard as possible. On some circuits it would have big repercussions. Then of course the top teams will do even more to have as many lesser teams as dependent on them as possible in order to have more "allies" during lapping, further strenghtening the tier-1 and tier-2 teams division and putting the teams somewhere in the middle, like McLaren, at even bigger disadvantage. Suddenly your race is dependent on so many factors that are outside of your control. It would no longer be the racing we know and most of us want, even if it could be hilarious to observe for one or two races.

[Astandahl]

[ATM]

Yeah, I would watch one pilot race-Monaco, preferably, second choice Hungaroring, third Barcelona-just to see how it works and laugh at the unruly bitching over the radio. Sort of “how not to run a race”, if you will.
But to make this a standard-hell no.

[SenorSjon]

tbh they should do it once, then they see what a crappy idea it was, so we can finally move on from this frequently recurring idea.

That line of thought doesn't work. Every year the qualy on q2 tire rule needs to be scrapped, only to come up for voting when unanimity is needed. One team usually votes differently and you're stuck with a rule again.

Edited by SenorSjon, 20 September 2020 - 12:59.

[Sterzo]

A brown flag should be waved every time a daft idea is proposed.