138 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

The F2 boys ****ed it up last year too though

 

Good call.

 

https://www.formula1..._big_crash.html

[Augurk]

I'm assuming they figured the so called best drivers in the world would be more sensible than that- again the F2 boys managed it ok. I agree its a terrible track, but the accident was entirely Sainz's fault for going too fast

Yeah fair enough - I just think that having a mandatory escape road with foam blocks to slow you down shouldn't allow to blast through at full speed in a high-risk maneuvre. It's supposed to be risk-mitigating and punishing to the driver messing up the corner, not risk-inviting. Sainz still messed up all by himself, but the choices made in designing this corner are hard to grasp. 

[Kalmake]

Yeah fair enough - I just think that having a mandatory escape road with foam blocks to slow you down shouldn't allow to blast through at full speed in a high-risk maneuvre. It's supposed to be risk-mitigating and punishing to the driver messing up the corner, not risk-inviting. Sainz still messed up all by himself, but the choices made in designing this corner are hard to grasp. 

How would you design the corner? There isn't much room.

[Nobody]

How would you design the corner? There isn't much room.

 

I thought the gravel trap idea on pg1 of this thread is simple obvious and effective solution, so it will never be made by the FIA.

[NixxxoN]

I thought the gravel trap idea on pg1 of this thread is simple obvious and effective solution, so it will never be made by the FIA.

Agree, no Idea why so much hate on gravel traps, or grass. Everything has to be concrete these days??

[Kalmake]

It's frustrating how Masi keeps dodging the question about gravel.

 

 

 

Asked if gravel could be used to slow the cars down, he noted: “As I’ve said a number of times that there's different solutions for different circuits, different corners, taking everything into account. And gravel is not a solution everywhere.

[krapmeister]

They need to place a genuine chicane.

I'm sure Max had practiced that turn 1 move.

Hasn't he done something similar to that before? Not necessarily with bollards but I seem to remember in Mexico one year - and maybe at Paul Ricard as well - he has just bailed on the first corner and just floored it across to the other side.

Smart thinking as he knows the stewards give a lot more leeway to Lap 1 antics...

[ARTGP]

It's frustrating how Masi keeps dodging the question about gravel.

 

How has he dodged it? He said gravel is not a solution everyone. That seems pretty blunt to me.

[ARTGP]

Agree, no Idea why so much hate on gravel traps, or grass. Everything has to be concrete these days??

 

Doesn't maintenance and upkeep of gravel traps and grass cost more money than concrete and some tecpro that you can truck in on a whim? You may find your answer lies there.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 September 2020 - 09:32.

[noikeee]

Is it possible to put gravel there without messing with its function as a normal road the rest of the year? Just asking, idk, haven't looked into it in detail.

[Augurk]

How would you design the corner? There isn't much room.

Well, I'd look at a way of positioning the foam blocks in a way that blasting through at near full throttle is never an option. This could be by moving the foam blocks backwards, more into the "open part" of the runoff rather than that close to the wall. Make them navigate boards that actually require braking, like on the Monza T1 setup. Then only leave a block on the white line to adjust the angle of the cars coming back on the track.

 

Something like this: 

 

 

When you go off in the orange zone you have to negotiate the orange blocks and the red block. 

When you go off in the red zone you only have to negotiate the red block. 

[NixxxoN]

Doesn't maintenance and upkeep of gravel traps and grass cost more money than concrete and some tecpro that you can truck in on a whim? You may find your answer lies there.

 

Yes it increases the maintenance costs, but this increase must be ridiculous and it's totally worth it in cases like this.

Drivers crashing into barriers and bollards getting destroyed also increase costs btw

Edited by NixxxoN, 29 September 2020 - 10:34.

[ExFlagMan]

Short of a major redesign of the corner, I guess it would only take a gravel trap or similar in a configuration like this to fix the problem.

 

 

Keep the firing line clear and have an escape road round that back which would actually force drivers to slow down if they want to overshoot and rejoin.

 

 

'Eyes down for a full gravel trap!'

 

Not sure it will deter drivers from the usual first lap shenanigans, but I guess it will be ok as long as you like watching the SC for a few laps.

 

Could get a bit repetitious though when they all arrive there after the SC restart, but I guess it get better after a few restarts as there will be less cars left each time.

 

Hope the local B&Qski has a plentiful supply of gravel to replace that liberally scattered over the track on the exit of the corner by those lucky enough to make it across the gravel.

[Imperial]

Having only watched the race last night (Yeah...guess who switched Sky on at 2.00pm on Sunday for the 2.05pm start, only to see the podium already taking place...) I was personally wondering it Carlos Sainz believes the brake pedal does not exist.

[PayasYouRace]

'Eyes down for a full gravel trap!'

 

Not sure it will deter drivers from the usual first lap shenanigans, but I guess it will be ok as long as you like watching the SC for a few laps.

 

Could get a bit repetitious though when they all arrive there after the SC restart, but I guess it get better after a few restarts as there will be less cars left each time.

 

Hope the local B&Qski has a plentiful supply of gravel to replace that liberally scattered over the track on the exit of the corner by those lucky enough to make it across the gravel.

 

Something like what I suggest would deter drivers from the first lap corner cutting because it takes away the Verstappen style bail out early knowing that driving through the runoff would lose him the minimum of time and it would be worth it. To use Max as an example, he'd have had to either cross the gravel trap, losing a lot of time and possibly damaging his car, or bail out to the left, and negotiate the return road which would actually lose him a lot of time.

 

The current layout results in SC for a few laps due to all the smashed up cars because drivers end up doing a Sainz, and we see it in F2 too. So what's the difference?

 

You're also grossly exaggerating the amount of gravel that would be shifted on to the track. Mugello wasn't a rallycross track by the end of the GP last time out.

 

How about thinking up a solution for yourself? Something a bit batter than draconian penalties for crossing a white line.

[ExFlagMan]

Something like what I suggest would deter drivers from the first lap corner cutting because it takes away the Verstappen style bail out early knowing that driving through the runoff would lose him the minimum of time and it would be worth it. To use Max as an example, he'd have had to either cross the gravel trap, losing a lot of time and possibly damaging his car, or bail out to the left, and negotiate the return road which would actually lose him a lot of time.

 

The current layout results in SC for a few laps due to all the smashed up cars because drivers end up doing a Sainz, and we see it in F2 too. So what's the difference?

 

You're also grossly exaggerating the amount of gravel that would be shifted on to the track. Mugello wasn't a rallycross track by the end of the GP last time out.

 

How about thinking up a solution for yourself? Something a bit batter than draconian penalties for crossing a white line.

 

Once saw a small single seater (Vauxhall/Opel Lotus) run wide through the gravel out of Coppice at Donington - when the driver braked for the chicane it was preceded by a bow wave of gravel. - took ages to clear it up after the race.

 

I am pretty sure F1 cars have much more orifices capable of ingesting and then spewing up gravel. 

 

Not sure having a gravel trap that close to the circuit will deter the drivers - more likely to make them more determined to hold their line and result in more contact between the two apexes.

 

Some year ago I suggested on here a scheme that avoided 'draconian penalties' for crossing the white line but never got any comments regarding it - either for or against.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 29 September 2020 - 11:05.

[Beri]

Short of a major redesign of the corner, I guess it would only take a gravel trap or similar in a configuration like this to fix the problem.

 

 

Keep the firing line clear and have an escape road round that back which would actually force drivers to slow down if they want to overshoot and rejoin.

 

 

It's a Zandvoort like solution. Which, in my honest opinion, is a great solution.

 

Edit: Found some great footage of the first corner. You can see the solution named by you and imagine how it would work out.

https://www.facebook...ext=0&width=560

Edited by Beri, 29 September 2020 - 11:15.

[Rinehart]

I actually think Russia turn 1,2,3 in terms of the track itself is good, creates overtaking both there and resultantly into turn 4, it's a challenge - feels good on a sim! 

 

But it's the whole sausage kerbs/run off/bollards solution that's crap. For Verstappen to just elect to miss it out at the start of the race, Grosjean to smash through the bollards and that be ok and Ricciardo to put one wheel over the kerb, naturally lose time through traction but too late to head for the bollards and still get a penalty, it's all a load of rubbish.

 

I think they need to bring the barriers much closer to the track on the exit, something like the solution at Turn 2 at singapore so there is run off if you out break (at turn 1) but its not quicker/there is no route to just miss it out entirely with the foot fully on the throttle. 

[PayasYouRace]

It's a Zandvoort like solution. Which, in my honest opinion, is a great solution.

 

That's where I got the idea.

[PayasYouRace]

Once saw a small single seater (Vauxhall/Opel Lotus) run wide through the gravel out of Coppice at Donington - when the driver braked for the chicane it was preceded by a bow wave of gravel. - took ages to clear it up after the race.

 

I am pretty sure F1 cars have much more orifices capable of ingesting and then spewing up gravel. 

 

Not sure having a gravel trap that close to the circuit will deter the drivers - more likely to make them more determined to hold their line and result in more contact between the two apexes.

 

Some year ago I suggested on here a scheme that avoided 'draconian penalties' for crossing the white line but never got any comments regarding it - either for or against.

 

What exactly are you aiming to achieve here? Do you want to deter drivers from abusing the runoff or stop them colliding whilst still on the track?

[Kalmake]

How has he dodged it? He said gravel is not a solution [everywhere]. That seems pretty blunt to me.

The question was about that one corner, not everywhere.

 

- Why didn't you drink tea this morning?

- I've said many times there are various beverages and various mornings. Tea is not the only beverage.

 

[cpbell]

Well turn 2 didn't exist for Verstappen on lap 1. That was such a blatant pre-meditated plan to just brake deep and go through the bollards. Sainz would have been better off planning it rather than reacting to it. Corners like this where there is usually no penalty for cutting it (e.g. final chicane at Canada) are always crap for racing. 

+1000.

[NixxxoN]

Not sure having a gravel trap that close to the circuit will deter the drivers - more likely to make them more determined to hold their line and result in more contact between the two apexes.

Really? Gravel traps instead of tarmac runoffs don't deter drivers?

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Gravel Trap

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Vote for Gravel Trap

Make F1 Great Again

#MF1GA

[BRG]

I'm not sure I get the joke.

 

Though grass, sand or earth would do a similar job.

It's Russia,  Why not a nice snow bank?  They work really well in rallying.

 

Not sure why gravel traps are seen as maintenance intensive.

 

Who?

A Le Mans class winner.  The son of Kurt Thiim.

 

Parading your ignorance of motor sport isn't a great look on a motor sport forum

[Nobody]

For Verstappen to just elect to miss it out at the start of the race, Grosjean to smash through the bollards and that be ok and Ricciardo to put one wheel over the kerb, naturally lose time through traction but too late to head for the bollards and still get a penalty, it's all a load of rubbish.

This

[ExFlagMan]

What exactly are you aiming to achieve here? Do you want to deter drivers from abusing the runoff or stop them colliding whilst still on the track?

 

Preferably both - but if the drivers decide to collide on the black bit it is up to them.

 

Problem with track limits abuse is that we probably only actually see a small percentage of it on the TV, whilst it is probably going on all down the field from my experience being trackside.

 

Why do drivers abuse track limits?  I assume it is either -

 

a - Because they can get away with it and gives them an advantage.

 

b - Because they lack the ability to drive within the limits.

 

I am not sure the gravel trap solution will ever solve b - all it would achieve is delays whilst they recover them from the gravel.

 

I would suggest we need a solution that - 

 

a - deters drivers from doing it by making any gain not worth the risk.

 

b - is simple to regulate.

 

c - easy and obvious for spectators/viewers to understand.

 

d - makes it obvious who the worst offenders are.

 

e - is applicable to all classes of racing, not just F1.

 

In addition it should attempt to avoid unwanted side effects, such as additional safety risks, SC interruptions etc.

 

Maybe some on here would like to suggest solutions that fit these criteria.

 

I shall have to trawl back through the forum to try and find my possible solution - I thought it was posted about 2016, when some on here got outraged by some infringements, but maybe it was even earlier.

[lustigson]

George Russel apparently wants a copy of the first corner from Sakhir. I tried to overlay that on the Sochi second corner.

 

Yellow: current turn 2

Blue: Sakhir turns 1 and 2

Gray: Sakhir-like turn

 

 

You see that Sakhir doesn't automatically fit into the available space. A Sakhir-like turn could fit, although the run-off would be minimal and likely too small.

 

Maybe an alternative is to make sure that the exit of turn 2 is as wide as the entry, like so (yellow is the original; blue is my sketch).

 

Edited by lustigson, 29 September 2020 - 17:12.

[MikeTekRacing]

 Grosjean to smash through the bollards and that be ok and Ricciardo to put one wheel over the kerb, naturally lose time through traction but too late to head for the bollards and still get a penalty, it's all a load of rubbish.

 

That's not a fair comparison. Grosjean was put out of the track by contact with another car - IMHO he shouldn't even had to attempt to go through that escape route, but he did try

[ANF]

Just erase it from the calendar and let it rot.

[thiscocks]

If he could manage to drive round it then his comments might have some weight.

[Imperial]

I personally think it's an interesting and revealing insight into a driver's psyche, when they are essentially admitting they cannot adapt to a problem, because they start demanding the problem be taken away from them rather than having the skillset to (in this case literally) drive around that problem.

[Marklar]

Well, this is one take, but then again I struggle to see the issue in demanding the government body to ensure a less confusing system and a system that works even if drivers cant manage it.

The assumptions that drivers can deal with it on their own is what ended up killing Bianchi, for example. Sure, it was his fault that he didnt slow down, but we all agree that the FIA could have easily prevented it. Now this specific case is not necessarly a immediate life thereating issue, but it's a issue created by how the FIA decided to police the track limits on this track. And it's just natural that drivers will try to take advantage out of everything

[milestone 11]

Or use super slippery surface in these places which they use on safety training grounds to simulate snow.

They tried that it Germany, it didn't end well.

[ARTGP]

They tried that it Germany, it didn't end well.

 

. imo it ended well.

[Rinehart]

That's not a fair comparison. Grosjean was put out of the track by contact with another car - IMHO he shouldn't even had to attempt to go through that escape route, but he did try

I wasn’t comparing them, I was listing them. But your description of Grosjean’s off did make me chuckle.

[Claymore25]

Sochi circuit should not exist.

[kumo7]

George Russel apparently wants a copy of the first corner from Sakhir. I tried to overlay that on the Sochi second corner.

 

Yellow: current turn 2

Blue: Sakhir turns 1 and 2

Gray: Sakhir-like turn

 

 

You see that Sakhir doesn't automatically fit into the available space. A Sakhir-like turn could fit, although the run-off would be minimal and likely too small.

 

Maybe an alternative is to make sure that the exit of turn 2 is as wide as the entry, like so (yellow is the original; blue is my sketch).

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

Max did what he did as he thought that was the fastest way to get around the corner. FIA was not good enough to prevent it from happening. Max did not crash so, none talks about it, instead as Carlos crashed and he said something, everyone talks about the Carlos's case. 

 

But FIA placed sausage and told the driver to go though the bollard as it new Max's trace was faster. 

 

In this light it is interesting, me thinks, to associate George reference to Shakir's kink. In a way to create more vector of going straight, and simultaneously reducing the "width" of run-off. I mean to say to make run-off deeper in the direction of straight before the corner, and narrower towards the third corner, by placing gravel in the area and make narrower path to get back to the track, possibly taking meandered route. 

 

I think this sketch of lustigson is interesting as the race car goes towards the stadium and create space for this new run-off layout. The track route ultimately must be faster than this d-tour on run-off and the d-tour should come back on track off the race-line.

 

It will be interesting if the long bend of the current third can create Adelaide-Nuel like hairpin of Magni-cour where lunging deep outside into the second corner gives the chance for overtake....