181 replies to this topic

[Baddoer]

So Lecler is indeed dodgy... I found that disturbing.

[shure]

So Lecler is indeed dodgy... I found that disturbing.

er, what?

[Paul McLucas]

What's the FIA excuse for that? 

First lap

[Okyo]

Do think most if not all of the incidents he had did have an out. Be it first lap, a Ferrari driver in italy, unprecedented thing like the seatbelts, fuel thingy, covid or whatever. Not sure if we had an incident, that was identical in the sense, that it happened previously, in the same part of the race, in the same conditions and someone got a penalty, no questions asked. Might be generalizing, as i am just recalling from memory. Feel free to correct me. 

 

Edited by Okyo, 01 October 2020 - 08:28.

[Sterzo]

154 posts in and I think there's a major element missing from this discussion. It's one thing to identify dodgy stewarding decisions, quite another to attribute motives to the decision makers.

 

I thought (but am open to correction) the stewards were drawn from a pool of about 20 people. Todt is not one of them, Masi is not one of them. I read on here the FIA is biased, but it's an organisation, not a person. Do you mean the President is enforcing his bias on 20 people including well known ex-drivers, and not one of them objects? Or is every individual biased? Or do you mean Masi is biased and not referring cases to the stewards, and no-one in the 20 stewards spots it and objects?

 

Perhaps there is bias somewhere - but shouldn't we be specific in our allegations? Vagueness is a wonderful ally in conspiracy theories.

[andrewf1]

First lap

It was first lap in Silverstone 2018 too when Kimi hit Lewis into a spin and he got handed a penalty. Lewis wasnt even out of the race, as opposed to Stroll who got sent into the wall and the stewards didnt even bat an eye.

Also, I always thought that 1st lap rule applies to the first corner right after the start and especially if it's about a shared degree of blame between the drivers involved in an accident where they both come out worse because of it.

This was turn 4, Leclerc single-handedly put a rival out of the race and suffered no damage. He wasn't even investigated.

So if that "first lap" is indeed the reasoning of the FIA, it's ridiculous and unfair.

Edited by andrewf1, 01 October 2020 - 09:01.

[Marklar]

I understand the 1st lap argument if its in the first one or two corners when brakes and tyres are super cold while you have possibly cars everywhere around you, or when (even if later in the lap) cars are all over you, but neither of this was the case here

[robefc]

.
Also, I always thought that 1st lap rule applies to the first corner right after the start and especially if it's about a shared degree of blame between the drivers involved in an accident where they both come out worse because.

Let’s face it, there’s no formal rule, just a much talked about concept with no clear definition and that everyone probably interpret differently.
And by everyone I mean the random selection of Stewards that may be officiating at a particular race.

I’ve no idea what the ‘regular’ stewards are like but the inclusion of a cheerful bumbling idiot like Johnny Herbert is indicative of the level of input that driver Stewards may provide.

Officiating at a race one weekend, declaring on television that an incident is unprecedented a few weekends later...despite the exact same thing having happened at the race you were a bloody steward for!

[mjjTT]

Do the stewards check only incidents that are reported them? Or also incidents they see, but are not reported to them?

[Lights]

[..]

And by everyone I mean the random selection of Stewards that may be officiating at a particular race.

I’ve no idea what the ‘regular’ stewards are like but the inclusion of a cheerful bumbling idiot like Johnny Herbert is indicative of the level of input that driver Stewards may provide.

Officiating at a race one weekend, declaring on television that an incident is unprecedented a few weekends later...despite the exact same thing having happened at the race you were a bloody steward for!

 

But don't you get it? Sometimes it's "his turn" on the swing in the playground.

 

The issue is that all these stewards have already made it in their lives and acting as an F1 steward now and then is something classy they wouldn't mind having listed on their obituary.

 

They're often ex-F1/WEC drivers, or buddies with the FIA through some committees or other nonsense. The FIA believes that this gives them all the required wisdom and authority, while in reality they're a bunch of loose cannons.

 

What an elite billion dollar sport should have is a team of dedicated, trained stewards, who know the rulebook in and out, don't miss anything significant, stand up for their values, and even suggest improvements to the clarity of rules before they're 'broken' so we get into less ad hoc situations where nobody seems to neither understand how a rule was actually meant nor what the penalty should be.

[shure]

But don't you get it? Sometimes it's "his turn" on the swing in the playground.

 

The issue is that all these stewards have already made it in their lives and acting as an F1 steward now and then is something classy they wouldn't mind having listed on their obituary.

 

They're often ex-F1/WEC drivers, or buddies with the FIA through some committees or other nonsense. The FIA believes that this gives them all the required wisdom and authority, while in reality they're a bunch of loose cannons.

 

What an elite billion dollar sport should have is a team of dedicated, trained stewards, who know the rulebook in and out, don't miss anything significant, stand up for their values, and even suggest improvements to the clarity of rules before they're 'broken' so we get into less ad hoc situations where nobody seems to neither understand how a rule was actually meant nor what the penalty should be.

while I think you're pretty much on the button here, in fairness the idea of having ex drivers is to understand perspective when judging how guilty a driver is of an infraction.  But yeah, having them trained so they treat it like a proper job would be welcome

[ExFlagMan]

Link to the stewards details for the race https://www.fia.com/..._g._andreev.pdf

 

I leave it to you to decide if they fit your criteria for the job.

[Retrofly]

Alex Albon was given 5 seconds for hitting Magunussen on the first lap which was arguably way more of a 50-50 racing incident compared the Leclerc/Stroll.

 

Sack the stewards, bring in a new lot that travel with the races.

[Chillimeister]

 

What an elite billion dollar sport should have is a team of dedicated, trained stewards, who know the rulebook in and out, don't miss anything significant, stand up for their values, and even suggest improvements to the clarity of rules before they're 'broken' so we get into less ad hoc situations where nobody seems to neither understand how a rule was actually meant nor what the penalty should be.

 

Spot on. And I would go further, a reminder in every single driver briefing that careless, crass, or inconsiderate driving resulting in a material impediment to the race of a competitor will result in a stop and go penalty of at least 30 seconds. Might make a few drivers think twice before making some of their more speculative overtakes. 

[Roadhouse]

Spot on. And I would go further, a reminder in every single driver briefing that careless, crass, or inconsiderate driving resulting in a material impediment to the race of a competitor will result in a stop and go penalty of at least 30 seconds. Might make a few drivers think twice before making some of their more speculative overtakes. 

 

Take away speculative overtakes and F1 becomes even more boring.

[Rodaknee]

Link to the stewards details for the race https://www.fia.com/..._g._andreev.pdf

 

I leave it to you to decide if they fit your criteria for the job.

Is there a bio for Michael Masi on there?  From what little there is available, it would appear he's spent most of in one region, which I'd wouldn't say has prepared him for working with the top teams and people in world motor sport.  He's well out of his depth.

[ExFlagMan]

Is there a bio for Michael Masi on there?  From what little there is available, it would appear he's spent most of in one region, which I'd wouldn't say has prepared him for working with the top teams and people in world motor sport.  He's well out of his depth.

 

I did not see one.

 

Some time ago I found a link to the mini-bio's of all the FIA F1 stewards - I think it was on the FIA web site, but so far I have not managed to find it again.

 

The web site is not very easy to navigate  - maybe it was designed by the same person who writes some of the  F1 regulations.....

 

From what I recall of the bio's it did seem that some of them had some experience of motorsport but others seemed to be a bit more from a 'suits' background.

 

I guess we are a somewhat lucky in the UK, as many of the MSUK stewards have come up through the ranks of marshaling, and hence have a pretty good grasp of how things actually play out on circuit.

 

From my experience of FIA level races, the closest that many FIA stewards appear to get to being out on track is when they get ferried round in the course car to check that everything is OK to proceed with the days track activity. 

[gillesfan76]

Is there a bio for Michael Masi on there?  From what little there is available, it would appear he's spent most of in one region, which I'd wouldn't say has prepared him for working with the top teams and people in world motor sport.  He's well out of his depth.

 

In my opinion, Masi is there because he’s willing to do Todt’s bidding. I really don’t think that the FIA’s historical and long standing unprofessionalism is by accident. Todt has a very different outward style to Mosley. But I think nothing has changed in effect.

[Paco]

Masi needs out. Clear cut.

[Chillimeister]

Take away speculative overtakes and F1 becomes even more boring.

 

I do get that but there's a line or should be. If whatever you try results in a competitors race being ended or ruined you should get a penalty that ruins your own race. Otherwise its dodgem cars.

[Afterburner]

Posts removed. Please remember that discussion of how fans or groups of fans with open allegiances behave is against the board rules.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

he literally did the exact same thing as Hamilton did in Russia in Belgium and the FIA/stewards did NOTHING. people rage at Hamilton getting away without penalty points, Leclerc didn't even get a bloody penalty in the race whereas Hamilton got 10 seconds.

 

but sure, there's no bias, no inconsistency, nothing unfair at all about any of that apparently. 

[ATM]

I think most of the coforumists say there might not be a malignant intent to turn a blind eye in Leclerc’s favor.
On the other hand, I think we can all agree that the Force is strong in this one; that’s a looong list of incidents he got away with it recently.

[Ivanhoe]

 people rage at Hamilton getting away without penalty points. 

In which alternate universe did that happen?

[Marklar]

In which alternate universe did that happen?

plenty did in the other thread.

tho I guess some of them (including me ) were more enraged about the fact that the FIA revised a decision they could have got right the first time, but there are many comments along the lines of even the original penalty being too soft or that every other driver would have received the rumoured original 2×2

[Ivanhoe]

Really?

[Sterzo]

I think most of the coforumists say there might not be a malignant intent to turn a blind eye in Leclerc’s favor.
On the other hand, I think we can all agree that the Force is strong in this one; that’s a looong list of incidents he got away with it recently.

There is indeed a long list, but there doesn't need to be intent for that to happen. If (as some or all of us believe) penalty decisions are inconsistent, then you'd expect the dodgy decisions to be randomly spread. That does not mean equally spread; equal is not random.

[ARTGP]

Really?

 

Welcome, first time poster.  

Edited by ARTGP, 02 October 2020 - 10:47.

[mjjTT]

Why do people keep saying that Hamilton did literally the same as Leclerq?

Hamilton did the error repeatedly, Leclerc did it once (as far as I know).

 

As far as I understand Leclerc went just beyond the practice start location. Not sure if it's 15 cm, 1m or 10m. But he was near the place where other drivers expected him. He was on the right side of the white line, so not in path of other drivers.

Hamilton wasn't anywhere near a spot where other drivers expect him to be. He stopped his car in the path of other drivers.

 

Should Leclerc have been investigated on the wrong practice start? Yes. Maybe he should at least have giving a reprimand.  Than Hamilton might not have made his mistakes in Sochi.

[Garndell]

In my opinion, Masi is there because he’s willing to do Todt’s bidding. I really don’t think that the FIA’s historical and long standing unprofessionalism is by accident. Todt has a very different outward style to Mosley. But I think nothing has changed in effect.

 

Masi was being groomed to succeed Charlie Whiting but had not completed his training, making him the only option they had at the time.  I haven't heard a thing about them training others now so to me it feels like a US Supreme Court job, for life.  It's a sad state of affairs.

[Tiakumosan]

https://www.racefans...e-says-leclerc/

[jcbc3]

He know that's baloney, but he can't say otherwise.