182 replies to this topic

[PlatenGlass]

It depends on whether you count this as a replacement, but Mansell drove the last three races of 1994 at Williams, and Coulthard took over the seat full time in 1995, and didn't do as well as hoped (though he picked up in the second half). Perhaps Mansell would have done better, his stint at McLaren notwithstanding.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 04 October 2020 - 15:52.

[absinthedude]

Difficult to say really. Mansell's skills seemed a little blunted but I doubt anyone looking objectively at things could say that he lost it over the winter of 1994/95....the McLaren debacle was certainly not all his fault. He was n the pace in Japan and won Australia from pole. He's still the most recent driver to win a grand prix over the age of 40. 

 

That said, DC was young and hungry. I think Williams wanted DC in the car with pressure from sponsors for a world champion.....which is ultimately how Mansell ended up at McLaren...there was strong preference from Marlboro for a recent WDC, especially after the comparative failure of 1994. 

[Atreiu]

It would have been a curious scenario. Tell Mansell to just drive fast and not think much about anything except keep an eye for the pit window. But I think he would still way over his head anyhow in 1995.

[Grenville]

Verstappen to Red Bull. I mean what has he actually achieved?

[Clatter]

It depends on whether you count this as a replacement, but Mansell drove the last three races of 1994 at Williams, and Coulthard took over the seat full time in 1995, and didn't do as well as hoped (though he picked up in the second half). Perhaps Mansell would have done better, his stint at McLaren notwithstanding.

 

Didn't do as well as hoped? Had to check, but his results don't look bad to me. There were 4 DNF's in the first half 3 of which were not his fault, and of the races he finished he was never lower than 4th.

[HeadFirst]

Verstappen to Red Bull. I mean what has he actually achieved?

 

Kind of alot, when you consider his youth. He's just turned 23.

[shure]

Verstappen to Red Bull. I mean what has he actually achieved?

well, if he hadn't gone there he would have achieved even less? He's in the best alternative to a Merc - you may as well say entering F1 - what's the point?

[shure]

Kind of alot, when you consider his youth. He's just turned 23.

It's freaky to think he's only 23.  It already feels  like he's been around so long!

[Jops14]

Zanardi looked like a great choice.....those with longer memories remembered his exploits in F3000 in 1991 and struggling valiantly with the Lotus F1 car in 1993 until his Spa accident which put him out with severe concussion. Then he remade his reputation in CART where he was clearly the top driver. With the recent success for Williams of Jacques Villeneuve, they felt Zanardi would be a similar success - especially as he had prior F1 and F3000 experience. But it just didn't work at all....the grooved tyres possibly being part of the reason why he failed....but he certainly had a wholly unexpected poor season alongside Ralf who did pretty well. The car wasn't a winner but Ralf was usually in the points and got a few podiums for 6th in the title race. Nobody would have credibly predicted that prior to the season.

Interestingly Zanardi in beyond the grid was fascinating

Essentially he didnt get a lot of testing time, struggled i. A couple quali and could kinda tell Head had given up on him, but he blames himself mostly. Easentially he was 39, just hd a kid, hes just spent 3/4 years putting in the mental effort to win in CART, and he didnt really want to dk that, he wanted to go home to his wife, and he realises he should have been in the factory working on it

I think had some things worked out differently in his career (taking test role at Benetton 91) he could have been a winner, in hindsight it was wrong move at the wrong time, Montoya in 99 would have been really good

But at least it gave us Button!

[PlayboyRacer]

Interestingly Zanardi in beyond the grid was fascinating

Essentially he didnt get a lot of testing time, struggled i. A couple quali and could kinda tell Head had given up on him, but he blames himself mostly. Easentially he was 39, just hd a kid, hes just spent 3/4 years putting in the mental effort to win in CART, and he didnt really want to dk that, he wanted to go home to his wife, and he realises he should have been in the factory working on it

You're on the money. Patrick Head did an interview years back explaining Zanardis year at Williams, the general theme being a lack of the commitment and hard work required to be competitive in F1.

It centered much around working on adapting to the car, what was required in his driving to get the most out of it and very much his overall fitness. Unfortunately I don't think Alex at that point had the work ethic needed. Fitness levels required in F1 were always higher than CART and Schumacher remember was setting a very high bar in those days.

It was a shame because Zanardi unquestionably had bags of talent, speed and bravery.

[Requiem84]

Verstappen to Red Bull. I mean what has he actually achieved?

 

In hindsight, I actually agree it would be much more fascinating to see him drive the TR / AT since 2016 -2020 to see what he could have done with that car ;).

[Peter Perfect]

Fisi to Ferrari in 2009. I was so hopeful he'd do well, but it wasn't to be.

[Risil]

Interestingly Zanardi in beyond the grid was fascinating

Essentially he didnt get a lot of testing time, struggled i. A couple quali and could kinda tell Head had given up on him, but he blames himself mostly. Easentially he was 39, just hd a kid, hes just spent 3/4 years putting in the mental effort to win in CART, and he didnt really want to dk that, he wanted to go home to his wife, and he realises he should have been in the factory working on it

I think had some things worked out differently in his career (taking test role at Benetton 91) he could have been a winner, in hindsight it was wrong move at the wrong time, Montoya in 99 would have been really good

But at least it gave us Button!

 

That sounds fair. Of course Montoya in 1999 was really good!
 

[maximilian]

Swipswapping in Tonio Liuzzi for Christian Klien was a dumb idea, and messed up both's season.  Then later HRT NOT keeping Klien.

[PlatenGlass]

Interestingly Zanardi in beyond the grid was fascinating

Essentially he didnt get a lot of testing time, struggled i. A couple quali and could kinda tell Head had given up on him, but he blames himself mostly. Easentially he was 39

Wikipedia says he was born in October 1966, so going into the 1999 season he would have been 32!

[Alex79]

McLaren replacing Prost with de Cesaris
Alfa replacing Andretti with de Cesaris
Ligier replacing Jarier with de Cesaris
Brabham replacing Warwick with de Cesaris
Scuderia Italia replacing an empty seat with de Cesaris

Loooool.

Admittedly, I was a huge supporter of Andrea. He always managed to liven up a boring race with an incomprehensible crash or a blown turbo/engine

[garoidb]

Wikipedia says he was born in October 1966, so going into the 1999 season he would have been 32!

 

It is fine to add up to seven years to a driver's age if it helps to win an argument. Adding the full seven years is a bit high, but rounding up two or three years is practically expected, so anyone who is "about 40" is really only 37  .    

Edited by garoidb, 05 October 2020 - 14:26.

[Claymore25]

Ferrari replacing Prost.

[KWSN - DSM]

Loooool.

Admittedly, I was a huge supporter of Andrea. He always managed to liven up a boring race with an incomprehensible crash or a blown turbo/engine

 

De Cesaris must have been so frustrating to work with, he was blindingly fast, yet managed to convert his inherent speed into a an amazing number of retirements... 

 

Started 208 Grand Prix

Retired from 147 grand Prix

A retirement percentage of 70!!

 

Despite his De Crasharis moniker, numbers are bad, but not quite as bad

 

A quick count on:

 

https://www.statsf1....grand-prix.aspx

 

Give Accident, collisions and spins 31, for what I call self inflicted retirements at 15%

 

Meaning no less than 116 car related technical reasons for retirement almost half of all races he took the start in, he retired due mechanical issues.

 

Here is one for stats.... When he retired in 1994 he at the time was the driver with the second most F1 starts!!

[jcbc3]

So here's a story from the old days about de Cesaris. It contains use of what is considered a slur towards disabled people today, but wasn't then. For this reason I have put it in spoilers. If you are offended by yesterdays language please do not open.

 

Spoiler

So, back in my karting days there was a famous (in Denmark) motorsport photographer called Flemming maler. After he had been to a Grand Prix he regaled us with stories about his latest adventure. This must have been in 1983 or 1984. When he came to talk about de Cesaris he said something like (translation follows): Jeg var sammen med ham i en halv time for at tage billeder og han havde så mange tics jeg troede han var spastiker. Det er et mirakel han ikke laver flere ulykker end han gør"

 

Translation: I was taking photographs for half an hour and he had so many tics I thought he was spastic. It's a miracle that he hasn't had more accidents than he has.

 

I will admit that the story made an impression on me and my opinion of de Cesaris that may not have been totally fair.

[MLC]

De Cesaris must have been so frustrating to work with, he was blindingly fast, yet managed to convert his inherent speed into a an amazing number of retirements... 

 

Started 208 Grand Prix

Retired from 147 grand Prix

A retirement percentage of 70!!

 

Despite his De Crasharis moniker, numbers are bad, but not quite as bad

 

A quick count on:

 

https://www.statsf1....grand-prix.aspx

 

Give Accident, collisions and spins 31, for what I call self inflicted retirements at 15%

 

Meaning no less than 116 car related technical reasons for retirement almost half of all races he took the start in, he retired due mechanical issues.

 

Here is one for stats.... When he retired in 1994 he at the time was the driver with the second most F1 starts!!

 

 

One stat I remember is that in one year with McLaren, De Cesaris wrote off six chassis. In six years with Mclaren, Prost wrote off one.
 

[Jops14]

Wikipedia says he was born in October 1966, so going into the 1999 season he would have been 32!

Lol typo, i meant 30 not 39 (i mean its still wrong either way haha)

[absinthedude]

Ah....the "de Cesaris twitch" as it was known. There's plenty of video footage of him with that tic, while sitting in the car on the grid. I don't know if he ever had that during a race...one would have thought it quite dangerous. Was it McLaren or Alfa who declined to let him race one time because they felt it was too dangerous?

 

However by the time he joined Jordan he'd matured into a driver who matched his speed with consistency. And let's face it, some of the cars he drove were inherently unreliable. 

 

replacing Prost towards the end of 1990 was indeed stupid and arrogant of Ferrari. He criticised the car in a fair manner. Had it been Villeneuve (famous for "shitbox" comment) they'd have still fawned all over him. 

[FTB]

You're not the first one to mention this here, but I think that's a bit of a myth. Though it was probably his best season of his comeback.

 

But the points gap was quite significant and Rosberg also had bad luck. Neither Racefans nor the team principals rated Schumacher in front.

 

To be fair, I haven't analysed the drivers that season on a detailed level and my memories of it might be shaky, so I could also be talking nonsense.

I forgot to answer this. Well, I haven't analysed it fully but Schumacher lost 25 points in Monaco by a baffling steward decision ( Bruno Senna moved under braking in the Spanish GP causing the crash and yet it was MSC that received the grid penalty ) + car failure. He also lost points in Australia ( was running 3rd before his gearbox failed iirc but Mercedes struggled with tyres so he could have lost a few places ), Malaysia ( could have finished 2 or 3 places higher without Grosjean torpedoing him ), China ( looked good for P2 ) and also had problems in qualifying at Bahrain and Canada. He retired from the race in Canada with another car failure. He may or may not have bad luck in 1 or 2 othe races too.

But Rosberg had some bad luck as well, though I don't remember the exact races.

Edited by FTB, 11 October 2020 - 17:17.

[Galoredk]

I think Perez should be happy he was replaced with Kmag. The McLaren the following year and years after was crap and because they brought on Alonso the year after, Perez would have been in shitbox after shitbox like Kmag has been in Renault and HAAS. Instead he got a very competent team in Force India / Racing point. Had he driven for Renault sling and HAAS and Kmag got Force Indua, Kmag would be the one with a good career.

[FirstnameLastname]

Replacing Rosberg with Bottas? Does that count?

[FirstnameLastname]

All these ‘driver academy’ and young driver programs have really kicked silly seasons into the long grass haven’t they. No more real shock moves since Hamilton moved to Mercedes.

[Myrvold]

Replacing Rosberg with Bottas? Does that count?

 

Not really, as Rosberg retired, and you start this thread with "Driver is booted out, despite not being a total waste of space - to make room for some hotshot who the team is pinning their hopes upon. And then it goes to ****, and it all ends up looking like a big mistake.".

So by your own "thread-rules" it doesn't apply.

[FirstnameLastname]

Not really, as Rosberg retired, and you start this thread with "Driver is booted out, despite not being a total waste of space - to make room for some hotshot who the team is pinning their hopes upon. And then it goes to ****, and it all ends up looking like a big mistake.".
So by your own "thread-rules" it doesn't apply.

Touché 🤦🏼‍♂️

[absinthedude]

Yeah I don't count Rosberg/Bottas. There's nothing for Merc to regret as they had no realistic choice. Nico retired, and the best driver available for 2017 was Bottas. And again realistically who could they have replaced Bottas with in the intervening years?

[messy]

Bottas was, and is, ideal for Mercedes and for Hamilton. Quick enough to take advantage when Lewis has a bad day, quick enough to finish second behind him in the WDC when they’re dominant, apolitical, harmonious with the team. World Championship after World Championship. None of the infighting and playground politics of Hamilton/Rosberg.

I doubt Wolff et al think it was a downgrade, remotely. The only ones who lose out with Merc not having two ‘equal’ drivers is us.

[Marklar]

It's probably the opposite of foolish

[Beri]

It's freaky to think he's only 23. It already feels like he's been around so long!

In 3 years, he'll be around for a decade. So yeah, he actually has been around for long.