57 replies to this topic

[statman]

Since it's rather quiet, new topic

 

Vettel likes the idea of having a spec car race during the weekend. Like they used to do in the old days

 

the Nurburgring famously held a race in 1984 featuring 10 F1 world champions and a number of other grand prix drivers, all of whom raced in Mercedes 190 E cars.

The race was won by then-British F3 champion Ayrton Senna, marking the Brazilian out as a future star three weeks before his maiden F1 podium finish at the Monaco Grand Prix.

F1 has not since held a similar event pitting its drivers up against each other in identical machinery, but four-time world champion Vettel was open to the idea.

If we had the chance in touring cars or something, where we could race each other hard, I don’t know if that would maybe jeopardise the show of the F1 race following after that too much.

https://www.motorspo...impression=true

Sainz likes the idea but would want to do it in Formula cars.

 

So what do you think? In the olden days we also had non-championship races on all kinds of tracks. Would it ruin an F1 weekend/take the focus away?

[PedroDiCasttro]

That'd be awesome, so Liberty and the FIA won't allow it. They don't want to entertain their public.

[Risil]

I'd like them to do this a handful of times a year. Sounds a bit like the BMW ProCar series, or for that matter IROC in the US.

 

No doubt you'd get some specialists or drivers who are naturally more in-tune with whatever car they choose than an F1 car. But that's all part of the fun.

 

I'd also like to put the drivers in relatively easy-to-handle road cars so they could do a bit of pro-celebrity racing, which is terrific fun though utterly pointless from a sporting perspective.

[Rodaknee]

The teams will remember what happened to Pascal Wehrlein at the Race of Champions in 2017.

 

 

[AustinF1]

Sounds good. And for years a lot of people have been pulling for a kart race like this. Would definitely be a lot less expensive & less difficult to stage.

[Kalmake]

That'd be awesome, so Liberty and the FIA won't allow it. They don't want to entertain their public.

Liberty would be for it and FIA wouldn't care. Teams have nothing to gain from it so it wont happen.

[Garndell]

So Vettel has finally come around to my view point.  Give them all a car that isn't tied to a current F1 team and if they insist on getting rid of a practice session on Friday, replace it with that.  A nice quick race in something like a Ariel, Lotus, F2 car... or something reasonably quick.  Hell make them race in Teslas, see how many they can write off.

[fed up]

Liberty would be for it and FIA wouldn't care. Teams have nothing to gain from it so it wont happen.

This. It will turn into a farce. Driver A leads the championships but driver B in a Williams dominates the spec series - the cacophony of noise will be about how driver A is only good because he has the best machinery - put driver B in that car and he too would dominate. Blah blah blah.

Don’t do it, please!

[Imperial]

If they took it seriously, then yeah great. If they treat it like many of them did the sim racing mess earlier this year....then yeah great haha!

[AustinF1]

This. It will turn into a farce. Driver A leads the championships but driver B in a Williams dominates the spec series - the cacophony of noise will be about how driver A is only good because he has the best machinery - put driver B in that car and he too would dominate. Blah blah blah.

Don’t do it, please!

I say do it ... for the same reasons you listed above.

[absinthedude]

Anyone else remember the BMW Procar challenge? 

 

The only potential issue is that FIA rule that drivers may not race in a F1GP within 24 hours of racing in another series.....but one would assume they could change the rule, or have the spec race on Saturday morning or Friday afternoon.

 

The fact that it would get people talking if a F1 backmarker or midfielder has success is a good thing. We need people talking about F1 again. 

[Marklar]

I'm a bit sceptical of this sort of stuff for the same reason why I was sceptical of real drivers competing in sim races against each other. The premise of everyone competing in the same equipment sounds promising, but ultimately it's not a true reflection of how great they are as F1 racers either, some deal better with other cars etc., but due to the equal equipment argument it will probably be taken too serious, and take all the fun out of it. At least for me.

edit: the flipside of this argument, as Imperial pointed out, can work against this too.

Edited by Marklar, 04 October 2020 - 16:55.

[Beri]

The teams will remember what happened to Pascal Wehrlein at the Race of Champions in 2017.

This is going to be an issue.

[Clatter]

The teams will remember what happened to Pascal Wehrlein at the Race of Champions in 2017.

 

And forget the multitude of other F1 drivers that competed without problems?

[Bleu]

Somehow the race should take place in some neutral cars. We've already seen in ROC how some drivers couldn't race in certain cars due to contract issues.

 

I don't think in 1984 the issues were that tight, and regardless Mercedes was not involved in F1 back then. But now you can't imagine a race where all three of Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen and Charles Leclerc are racing in Mercedes, Honda or Ferrari.

[alframsey]

I am torn. I really enjoy the current formula and dislike these calls for spec racing in F1. I do however like thought of a proper race each weekend where drivers are in equal machinery. Would there be points for this series? If the cars are fast enough and it is treated half way serious then bring it on.

[jimjimjeroo]

Porsche CUP F1 race. Simple

[balmybaldwin]

Biggest Issue I can see if they used "road" cars is affinity sponsorship deals etc.

 

But it would be great if the teams were given funds from liberty/fia/engineering schemes etc. to each run a scheme for under 21 yr old mechanics to set-up & prepare F3/F4 spec cars for maybe 10 races a year at the non-flyaways

[PayasYouRace]

Anyone else remember the BMW Procar challenge? 

 

The only potential issue is that FIA rule that drivers may not race in a F1GP within 24 hours of racing in another series.....but one would assume they could change the rule, or have the spec race on Saturday morning or Friday afternoon.

 

The fact that it would get people talking if a F1 backmarker or midfielder has success is a good thing. We need people talking about F1 again. 

 

Is this actually in the rules anywhere, or is it another one of those BS "rules" that fans have pulled out of nowhere like the one about laptimes having to be more than a minute?

[PayasYouRace]

There's a lot of cup spec Clios going spare at the moment. They'd be a good start.

 

A fun race which F1 drivers could have a laugh in would be welcome. The worst thing would be to make it a regular series with commitment required and championship standings and all sorts of serious additions. Just keep it fun, and not too often. Just do it where the fans are.

[P123]

Porsche CUP F1 race. Simple

 

Porsche cup is the most boring racing on the planet!

 

I suppose some F1 teams would get a bit sniffy about their multi-million dollar investment racing in a car badged by a competitor.

 

They should do it as a charity race, with other invitees.  And at a Tilkedrome where the danger of injury will be somewhat reduced.

[Risil]

I'd do it at Zandvoort or somewhere else with an atmosphere.

[Loosenut]

I'd like to see it, but in Go Karts..

[Rodaknee]

And forget the multitude of other F1 drivers that competed without problems?

The RoC is a time trial on a track with more padding than babies cot. Vettel was asked about a proper race in tin tops on a real track.  He's likely the only F1 driver who'd be interested, as he's just about the only 'current' F1 driver who a regular at the RoC.

 

I can't work out how a one-off race in tin tops has grown a spec F1 race held at every other GP in only 20 posts.  Has this forum got a Chinese Whispers malware infection?

[noikeee]

Put them all in karts once a year, I've suggested it years ago.

[absinthedude]

Is this actually in the rules anywhere, or is it another one of those BS "rules" that fans have pulled out of nowhere like the one about laptimes having to be more than a minute?

 

I believe it was introduced after Mario Andretti's antics taking Concorde to grands prix during Indycar weekends....trying to do both series. 

 

 

"but ultimately it's not a true reflection of how great they are as F1 racers either"

 

It's not supposed to be....that's not the point at all. 

[PayasYouRace]

I believe it was introduced after Mario Andretti's antics taking Concorde to grands prix during Indycar weekends....trying to do both series. 

 

So if the rule ever existed, it was something used in the 1970s.

[absinthedude]

So if the rule ever existed, it was something used in the 1970s.

 

No, on many occasions since it has prevented F1 drivers from racing in support races. 

 

It doesn't mean the rule cannot be altered. But it has been used. The stated idea behind it is that the drievers need to be at their absolute best for the GP, not fatigued from another race or travel.

[Clatter]

No, on many occasions since it has prevented F1 drivers from racing in support races.

It doesn't mean the rule cannot be altered. But it has been used. The stated idea behind it is that the drievers need to be at their absolute best for the GP, not fatigued from another race or travel.

Can you give any examples of an F1 driver wanting to take part in a support race, but not being allowed to? I honestly cannot remember any such occasion in the last 30+ years.

[garoidb]

Somehow the race should take place in some neutral cars. We've already seen in ROC how some drivers couldn't race in certain cars due to contract issues.

 

I don't think in 1984 the issues were that tight, and regardless Mercedes was not involved in F1 back then. But now you can't imagine a race where all three of Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen and Charles Leclerc are racing in Mercedes, Honda or Ferrari.

 

A lot of the 1984 drivers were retired. Senna drive a Hart powered car in F1, while the McLaren's of Prost and Lauda had TAG engines (made by Porsche but not a works deal in the current sense). As far as I can see, only Keke Rosberg was in real conflict with his F1 team's engine arrangements, and they must have been fine with it (or there was no contractual impediment). 

 

Edit: Engine considerations may be why Nelson Piquet didn't run in it.  

Edited by garoidb, 05 October 2020 - 09:40.

[balage06]

I'm fairly sure if they ever decide to do it, they will still ruin it somehow. Like using the cars from the Jaguar I-Sqeal eTrophy or something.

[Augurk]

Of course most fans would love to see this, including me. However how would they make sure the cars are actually equal? We see that's very difficult in all spec series. There's still a ton of difference between cars. 

There would still need to be teams to work on the cars to prep them where differences can be made.

 

The cars would need to run the same setup as well. I think to see them in tin-top racers would be great, however far removed from F1. A spec open wheel race would be closer to home but harder to produce. 

Unless they just put them in F2 cars or something. But not on a weekend where there's an actual F2 race there, because then we would be able to compare lap times from F2 drivers with F1 drivers. And I'm not sure how many F1 drivers would pass the test 

[PlatenGlass]

So if the rule ever existed, it was something used in the 1970s.

In the world's 108th biggest coincidence ever, the other day I happened to be looking at Gerhard Berger's Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.../Gerhard_Berger and found this:

 

"Until the mid-1980s when teams began stopping their drivers competing in other categories of racing (primarily due to the risk involved), it was not uncommon for a Grand Prix driver to race in sports and touring cars. However, by 1985 Formula One drivers were not permitted race in any other category within 24 hours of the start of a Grand Prix. At the season ending 1985 Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide, Berger had to obtain permission from the FIA, FOCA, and from Arrows team to race in a Group A touring car race which was a support category for the weekend. He needed the permission as the Grand Prix was scheduled to start at 2 pm on Sunday, 3 November and the Group A race was to start at 3 pm on the Saturday."

[PayasYouRace]

No, on many occasions since it has prevented F1 drivers from racing in support races. 

 

It doesn't mean the rule cannot be altered. But it has been used. The stated idea behind it is that the drievers need to be at their absolute best for the GP, not fatigued from another race or travel.

 

If you can't find the rule, at least provide some examples of it being applied.

[Rinehart]

I hope this never happens. I couldn't bear decades of "yes but x beat y in that touring car race so he's clearly better"... clogging up the internet. Much prefer the unknowns, where may the best arguement win (in the eye of the beholder), rules! 

[NixxxoN]

The teams will remember what happened to Pascal Wehrlein at the Race of Champions in 2017.

Meh... who cares. Such a brainfart would rarely happen again and racing in such roof-less unprotected cars would also hardly happen

[Nicktendo86]

Quite like this idea. Maybe not at every race but a few weekends in the year, put them all in the same spec car and have a bit of fun. Can't see it ever happening, the teams wouldn't be happy their drivers are potentially putting themselves at risk in a non championship event.

[Augurk]

I hope this never happens. I couldn't bear decades of "yes but x beat y in that touring car race so he's clearly better"... clogging up the internet. Much prefer the unknowns, where may the best arguement win (in the eye of the beholder), rules! 

Have you ever seen the best argument win on the internet? 

[PayasYouRace]

I hope this never happens. I couldn't bear decades of "yes but x beat y in that touring car race so he's clearly better"... clogging up the internet. Much prefer the unknowns, where may the best arguement win (in the eye of the beholder), rules! 

We already have this all the time. A spec exhibition race isn’t going to change anything.

[BRG]

It's F1 so it would have to be something ludicrously extravagant.  How about a field of showroom-spec Bugatti Chirons?  It might even finally tempt VAG into F1.

[AlexPrime]

I would actually love an olympic race where the top drivers from say F1, Indycar, LMP 1 race with LMP2 Oreca-Gibsons. I think that given record in IMSA, best NASCAR drivers would also be able to participate.

[eibyyz]

So if the rule ever existed, it was something used in the 1970s.

 

Monza 1968.  Andretti and Bobby Unser were kicking arse in practice, Lotus and BRM respectively.  Ferrari had a word with the ACI and that was that.

[w1Y]

So instead of lewis winning by 10 secs he'd win by 30. 😋

[MortenF1]

Can you give any examples of an F1 driver wanting to take part in a support race, but not being allowed to? I honestly cannot remember any such occasion in the last 30+ years.

I seem to remember Schumacher - but if him it was probably the same for others as well - not being allowed to race officially or even be seen driving other cars but Ferraris or cars from Fiat. Something like that.
Also McLaren had such tie-downs on their drivers for several years I think.

[ARTGP]

Would be funny to see the drivers play "team sports" or that show that Hulkenberg did.

Edited by ARTGP, 05 October 2020 - 22:05.

[Izzyeviel]

If they did this, they should make spec cars especially for the Monaco GP. Just copy the Lotus 72 and voila.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I really hate all this contract nonsense.  All it does is turn me off the manufacturers who destroy the entertainment value by keeping drivers out of events people want to see.  Does any reasonable consumer go "OMG, Charles Lerclerc drove a Mercedes in a support race, I had no idea he was just faking his love for Ferraris"?  Can't you just put a clause that says that the secondary manufacturer in alleged conflict is not allowed to use the conflicted drivers in any promotional materials?

[Frank Tuesday]

Buy a bunch of "affordable" prototype cars like the NASA Elan (US$70k), and paint them to match the teams' liveries. Hire a company to prep all the cars. Have the drivers race. No sponsor conflicts.

[efuloni]

I would actually love an olympic race where the top drivers from say F1, Indycar, LMP 1 race with LMP2 Oreca-Gibsons. I think that given record in IMSA, best NASCAR drivers would also be able to participate.

Lets put karting in Olympics. Drivers could try to get a golden medal to their trophy shelves.

[Roadhouse]

It would be awesome, but there are too many ifs and buts. Even if you manage to pick a car which everyone wants to drive there has to be something to race for. Otherwise they just won't commit because it'll either interfere with their F1 schedule or their spare time.

 

If they did this, they should make spec cars especially for the Monaco GP. Just copy the Lotus 72 and voila.

 

<removes drool from mouth>