388 replies to this topic

[BRG]

BRG, isn't it normal that whatever happens at whatever sporting arena stays there? Regardless of how stupid it is.

No.  The law is the law, in most countries anyway.  You say 'whatever happens' - so if Jos Verstappen or Lawrence Stroll were to kill, say, young Mazepin for his on-track antics, would you expect that to stay in the sporting arena?  

[MikeTekRacing]

I think, at least in some jurisdictions, one party has to press charges. 

[danmills]

A ban was truly deserving, but once again motorsports get it wrong by setting decision standards that are all over the place depending what way the wind blows that day.

Some other names and bans that followed were far, far lesser.

Cantona.

Zidane.

Tyson.

[MikeTekRacing]

I'd be interested to know what examples of such lengthy bans dictated in the past are and for what infringement. 

[Risil]

I can think of a couple of soccer players (Gilles De Bilde, then with Anderlecht, and Rangers' Duncan Ferguson) who spent time in prison for on-field assaults. De Bilde had already received a two-year suspended sentence for headbutting two boy scouts (!)

[absinthedude]

I think, at least in some jurisdictions, one party has to press charges. 

 

In most countries, all that is needed is for the authorities, usually in the form of the police, to be aware. In some jurisdictions the party viewed as "wronged" can be asked if they wish to press charges. In many, that isn't up to them at all. 

 

In this case, with clear video evidence all over the interwebs the authorities don't need the aggrieved parties to request action. 

[danmills]

Tyson got a 15 month ban for biting off Holyfields ear.

https://youtu.be/zKPMVex-UKk

 

Zidane got a red card, a fine and a 3 match ban for headbutting.

https://youtu.be/zAjWi663kXc

 

Cantona got 9 months iirc.

https://youtu.be/C7PSY7KYThk

Edited by danmills, 11 June 2021 - 20:28.

[MikeTekRacing]

Tyson got a 15 month ban for biting off Holyfields ear.

https://youtu.be/zKPMVex-UKk

 

Zidane got a red card, a fine and a 3 match ban for headbutting.

https://youtu.be/zAjWi663kXc

 

Cantona got 9 months iirc.

https://youtu.be/C7PSY7KYThk

yeah, 1year ban is something I can understand, but 15 years seems over the top in sports. 

It was extremely idiotic, mandatory psychological treatment and evaluation, community time etc....at the end of the day we are lucky there were no consequences to his acts.

Still, 15 years sounds out of order. I don't think it's precedented in sports to ban somebody for something for so long 

[MikeTekRacing]

I can think of a couple of soccer players (Gilles De Bilde, then with Anderlecht, and Rangers' Duncan Ferguson) who spent time in prison for on-field assaults. De Bilde had already received a two-year suspended sentence for headbutting two boy scouts (!)

agree, i think those moves beyond intent led to injuries...

[Risil]

De Bilde's certainly did, not sure about Ferguson's. Duncan Ferguson had already been before a court several times for assault, including for one following what Wikipedia describes as a dispute with a fisherman in Anstruther.

[danmills]

Lee Bowyer and Jonathan Woodgate also beat an asian student unconscious on a bender, broke his leg, nose etc and were not allowed to play for England until the court case concluded. Woodgate got 100 hours community service.

 

Both did play for England after. 

 

Boyer has been involved in lots of lesser incidents since.

Edited by danmills, 11 June 2021 - 20:39.

[Collombin]

Still, 15 years sounds out of order. I don't think it's precedented in sports to ban somebody for something for so long

Just prior to his team's appearance in the Superbowl, Bengals (yes, that's how long ago it was) running back Stanley Wilson was caught taking drugs. It was his final strike, and he got a life ban that I believe was never rescinded.

[AlanDove46]

In other news the big teams have written to Felipe Massa (FIA Karting President) that they plan NOT to race at this years World Championship event in Brasil... for obvious reasons.

[prty]

No. The law is the law, in most countries anyway. You say 'whatever happens' - so if Jos Verstappen or Lawrence Stroll were to kill, say, young Mazepin for his on-track antics, would you expect that to stay in the sporting arena?

What about boxing or MMA?

https://www.nbcnews....-fights-n922866

Edited by prty, 11 June 2021 - 21:50.

[ensign14]

English law gives a certain amount of latitude for battery on the sporting field on the basis that it's a trade-off for the social good that sports can deliver.  Someone participating in football, for instance, reasonably consents to some level of foul play.  But that does not mean a player cannot be charged with a criminal offence for something they do while participating.

[PayasYouRace]

Please refrain from libellous statements against people, such as accusing people of attempted murder.

[BRG]

We are talking above about sports people falling foul of the law either during or outside competitions.  However, I was wondering about a bystander - albeit a close relative of a participant - getting involved in an assault.  If a football or rugby (chose your sport!) spectator joins in some sort of fracas between players and causes injuries, would he not get prosecuted?

[ch103]

Be very careful criticizing sports stars with less than moral reputations on this site... 

[absinthedude]

As we have seen in the past, sports competitors are not immune to prosecution but there is some expectation that contact occurs in many sports. Not just boxers, rugby players, football players, even potentially golfers can receive injuries during competition. It is understood that these sports are governed by a set of rules and a governing body. If competitors (or spectators) go beyond those rules they're open to prosecution. In most parts of the world that does not require another party "pressing charges". Additionally, governing bodies have been open to legal action if it is suspected they've been negligent, even in the writing or enforcing of rules. 

 

What happened in that kart race was beyond any doubt against several rules and was possibly criminal. You can bet the sporting authorities need to deal with it properly, else legal action is more likely. 

 

One just does not throw parts of a vehicle in front of a competitor on a live racetrack.

[AlexS]

I light of this sorry episode how Ayrton Senna act at Suzuka 1990 should be seen?

[Arska]

I light of this sorry episode how Ayrton Senna act at Suzuka 1990 should be seen?

 

If we are to consider that, we should consider Prost at Suzuka 1989 to keep things balanced.

[PlatenGlass]

People must remember the attempted manslaughter investigation into Schumacher's Jerez collision with Villeneuve.

 

https://www.tehranti...ed-Manslaughter

[absinthedude]

uka 1989 and 1990....for a criminal investigation one would have to be in possession of evidence that intent to cause physical harm or death was present. Or that the actions were so reckless that physical harm was a likely outcome. I don't think that either Prost or Senna intended to cause physical harm to each other, and the 89 crash was pretty tame. The 90 crash was faster but less dangerous than Piquet Jr smashing directly into a wall on a street circuit. As for their actions deciding a championship title, that's an internal FIA/F1 matter and not a criminal matter....though race wins and championships in various categories *have* been decided in courts of law.

 

Throwing a large piece of vehicle, even a kart, in front of a competitor driving at speed on a live racetrack might well be considered so reckless as likely to cause injury or death. What if it had hit the guy's helmet? There are certain things that are just so recklessly dangerous, you. do. not. do. them. Then lying in wait with your dad to beat a competitor up after the race. That's probably at least "common assault" or the local equivalent. Whether the authorities wish to get involved is dependent on whether they know and whether they consider the sport has dealt with it sufficiently. 

[FullOppositeLock]

If memory serves his argument for protesting the sport’s penalty is that local authorities have already dealt with it.

[Nemo1965]

I never passed the bar, but I know a little (to quote Jay-Z). My take, partly based on my experiences as a court-room reporter in the Netherlands for seven years: can we prove intent? (Merde. I see that Absinthedude already posted this thought. Never mind, I will ramble on for a bit).

 

Regarding 1989 and the 1990: whatever you think of Prost's steering in at the chicane, deliberate or not, at least the authorities (FIA or the police) would have to prove intent and premeditated intent. In both cases that would be a hard task. Senna in 1990, however, AFAIK,  said that if Prost would take the lead in the first corner, he Senna, 'would attempt to take the lead into the first corner, regardless of the consequences.'

 

That is premeditated intent. To cause serious physical harm? No, that would take it too far. But 'reckless endangerment'? (If that is the correct phrase in English, I know the Dutch court-system pretty wel and its lingo, not the English, so pardon for that)? Slam dunk, I would say.

 

To take it back to the incident at Lonato. The suspended driver was pushed off (according to him and to most who have seen the incident) in a dangerous way during the race. Just like with Prost, it would be pretty hard to prove premeditated intent, except when a video pops up on which the aforementioned driver says: 'If driver X tries to overtake me there, I will make sure he will end up in the wall.' Luca Coberi, however, waited next to the track with a piece of a kart to throw it at a  other driver. Then he waited for him, after the race, with his father to start an altercation. Intent proved? Intent proved.

 

(PS: I always have thought that Max Verstappen should have had a penalty or a race-ban in Spa a couple of years ago, when he announced on the radio he would not let Raikonen pass, as a revenge for the crash at the start. And then he blocked him at 270 plus an hour. Not in the heat of the moment, not a debatable move. Intent, premeditated.)

Edited by Nemo1965, 13 June 2021 - 09:06.

[Singularity]

 I can't stress enough how dangerous his crash could've been.

I think you can and I think you have. If the footage in the link you shared ( Corberi had dropped from tenth while the other guy was on his way up from 20th. How you you know that Corberi did not brutally block a pass the corner before? You don't? It it's okay, because it really does not matter. You put a lot of weight that the other guy was DQ'ed but, knowing Italy, do you think race direction would go against Papa Corberi screaming: "DQ that bastard, I will kill him later?" We don't know. We don't have to know because we saw a coward waiting 15 minutes (with his helmet on so would not get auuah) in order to attack someone after the race. The same guy we saw throwing heavy objects onto an incoming field. 

There's no excuse! We do not have to go to Lonato and rent a kart to realize that there are no excuses for Corberi & Corberi Sr's behaviour!  

[AlanDove46]

I think you can and I think you have. If the footage in the link you shared ( Corberi had dropped from tenth while the other guy was on his way up from 20th. How you you know that Corberi did not brutally block a pass the corner before?

because that's not what happens there at that corner. 

[Singularity]

because that's not what happens there at that corner. 

Way to miss the apex on that one 

[PlatenGlass]

uka 1989 and 1990....for a criminal investigation one would have to be in possession of evidence that intent to cause physical harm or death was present. Or that the actions were so reckless that physical harm was a likely outcome. I don't think that either Prost or Senna intended to cause physical harm to each other, and the 89 crash was pretty tame. The 90 crash was faster but less dangerous than Piquet Jr smashing directly into a wall on a street circuit. 

I'm not sure I'd agree with the 1990 crash being less dangerous than Piquet Jr's. In 1992, Hitoshi Ogawa and Andrew Gilbert-Scott had a not dissimilar collision at the same place in which Hitoshi Ogawa died.

[AlanDove46]

because that's not what happens there at that corner. 

Well T1 at lonato is a kink left and not where you overtake. Also, what if you were told before a race you were going to be targeted by a particular driver and then found yourself in the fence?

discalimer: ban was justified, there is no excuse for what Luca did. However full context is vital in any discussion.

[Singularity]

Also, what if you were told before a race you were going to be targeted by a particular driver and then found yourself in the fence?

 

Was he being told that? If yes, why would someone target him? You see, the chain of "why's" and "because's" quickly becomes endless, but I just say this: If people put a target on your back during races it is very rare they do it because you are a nice guy and a clean racer.

[AlanDove46]

Was he being told that? If yes, why would someone target him? You see, the chain of "why's" and "because's" quickly becomes endless, but I just say this: If people put a target on your back during races it is very rare they do it because you are a nice guy and a clean racer.

Was he being told that? Good question, Maybe do some investigatory work and find out for yourself. 

The coverage of this whole incident has been woeful at every level. Wrong ages of drivers, not informing people of the FULL context of the incident. That's all my point is.

*Disclaimer: Luca was not justified. a ban was the only outcome.

Edited by AlanDove46, 14 June 2021 - 08:41.

[Singularity]

Was he being told that? Good question, Maybe do some investigatory work and find out for yourself. 
 

The why the **** did you bring that up? You are full of excuses for him and now it seem you just make them up? 

Your disclaimer does not help you.

[Myrvold]

Was he being told that? Good question, Maybe do some investigatory work and find out for yourself. 

The coverage of this whole incident has been woeful at every level. Wrong ages of drivers, not informing people of the FULL context of the incident. That's all my point is.

 

Line 1 and Line 2.

 

Ironic.

[barrykm]

Disclaimer - I have only skimmed parts of this long and complicated post but what if...Corberi received only a lighter sanction and then at some future point on the track he decides to drive into, or punt off another competitor in a similar fit of madness?

 

Apologies if my point has been covered earlier.

[AlexS]

I never passed the bar, but I know a little (to quote Jay-Z). My take, partly based on my experiences as a court-room reporter in the Netherlands for seven years: can we prove intent? (Merde. I see that Absinthedude already posted this thought. Never mind, I will ramble on for a bit).

 

Regarding 1989 and the 1990: whatever you think of Prost's steering in at the chicane, deliberate or not, at least the authorities (FIA or the police) would have to prove intent and premeditated intent. In both cases that would be a hard task. Senna in 1990, however, AFAIK,  said that if Prost would take the lead in the first corner, he Senna, 'would attempt to take the lead into the first corner, regardless of the consequences.'

 

That is premeditated intent. To cause serious physical harm? No, that would take it too far. But 'reckless endangerment'? (If that is the correct phrase in English, I know the Dutch court-system pretty wel and its lingo, not the English, so pardon for that)? Slam dunk, I would say.

 

To take it back to the incident at Lonato. The suspended driver was pushed off (according to him and to most who have seen the incident) in a dangerous way during the race. Just like with Prost, it would be pretty hard to prove premeditated intent, except when a video pops up on which the aforementioned driver says: 'If driver X tries to overtake me there, I will make sure he will end up in the wall.' Luca Coberi, however, waited next to the track with a piece of a kart to throw it at a  other driver. Then he waited for him, after the race, with his father to start an altercation. Intent proved? Intent proved.

 

(PS: I always have thought that Max Verstappen should have had a penalty or a race-ban in Spa a couple of years ago, when he announced on the radio he would not let Raikonen pass, as a revenge for the crash at the start. And then he blocked him at 270 plus an hour. Not in the heat of the moment, not a debatable move. Intent, premeditated.)

 

Precisely.

 

In 1992, Hitoshi Ogawa and Andrew Gilbert-Scott had a not dissimilar collision at the same place in which Hitoshi Ogawa died.

 

Thanks. I was not aware of that. Plus no one can be sure how an accident with 2 cars will develop.

 

 

My overall point is that this is not be some lower level formulas only issue.  And that there have been some dangerous allowance for some stars or next wonder driver. Besides several instances of Verstappen there was also a situation with Leclerc at Monaco.

[Marklar]

Appeal rejected https://www.fia.com/..._medium=twitter

[Dolph]

Maybe 15 years is too long. But I think the ban has served a purpose. To take away any desire for anyone to do smth like that. Maybe when the red mist comes you do not think about it in the heat of the moment, but the assault after the finish would not have happened for sure if a 15 year ban was known to be the conclusion.

Edited by Dolph, 21 July 2021 - 14:22.

[BRG]

The real shame is that now he can never become President of the FIA Karting Commission. Such a human tragedy.