127 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Catching up on the weekend's MotoGP, I'm inspired by the remarkable turnaround of Alex Marquez. Brickbats are thrown and hisses hissed as the not-especially-impressive Moto2 champion is promoted directly to the champion factory Honda team, and then his ill-wishers rub their hands with delight as Alex barely troubles the top 15, even as his brother's injury means he's left to uphold the Repsol team's honour alone.

 

But now? Two second-places in a row (one in the wet, one in the dry) and by far the top Honda performer in both races. Imagine Jolyon Palmer having his regular Jolyon Palmer start to 2016, but dragging the Renault onto the podium by the end of the year. Well, F1 is not MotoGP, more's the pity.

 

What do you all make of it? I'm amazed, encouraged and delighted. Please share your own stories of unexpected improvement, flashes of brilliance from the previously unexceptional, and the heroics achieved by the (or so we thought) mediocre.

[noriaki]

Nelson Piquet jr becoming a Formula E champion.

Lance Stroll's development in F1.

[messy]

Ooh, Bradley Smith going from unexciting Moto2 rider who nobody thought worthy of promotion to top six MotoGP rider and podium finisher, or Elfyn Evans going from unexciting heir to Matthew Wilson as Britain’s next WRC ‘not even nearly-man’ to three events away from being our third World Champion.

Edited by messy, 19 October 2020 - 21:15.

[Andrew Hope]

I saw Yuje Ide it in a solid lap testing in Bahrain once. I'm pretty sure.

[Dolph]

Alexander Rossi looked nowhere in Indycar for a year and a half. He won the 100th Indy 500 on a fuel strategy (which he admittedly made work), but pace wise he was the biggest disappointment of the season in 2016 driving in an Andretti car no less. Often trundling at the back finishing 15th. His next best finishes were 5th, 6th, 8th and 2x10th. This kid was going nowhere fast. 2017 started a bit better. And suddenly in Mid-Ohio 2017 I realized he was becoming pretty handy and on a strong upward trajectory, which he proved by second podium and then a win. In 2018 he challenged for the title right from the get-go.

 

Whenever I see a rookie driver performing lousy nowadays I always think - maybe he is the next Alex Rossi. But how often do they get to prove it in a top car for 2-3 seasons!? I liked how Andretti gave Veach a three year deal, but he never came good.

 

 

 

As an Estonian we also have a fine example of such a driver here - Ott Tänak. He used to crash a lot and then he used to crash a lot more and then some more years of crashing. 2012-2016 to be exact. I'd written him off because he also wasn't that fast. I've always believed you can make a fast, but unreliable driver reliable, but you can't make a reliable driver fast. Maybe that's a dumb rule of thumb. Honestly he was neither fast nor reliable. But, suddenly Tänak came good in 2017 and in 2018 nearly took the title. 2019 was a culmination of blind faith people had in him with him finally clinching it.

 

 

 

Another interesting example: Castroneves. Not in the same spirit, but... at the start of 2009 in chains and awaiting a likely prison sentence. Missed the first race of the season, but suddenly back in the car and wins the Indy 500 a couple of months later. The situation gave Will Power his big break with Penske.

 

Edited by Dolph, 19 October 2020 - 21:57.

[noikeee]

Felipe Massa going from being the punchline joke of F1 to provisionally being champion for a few seconds, seems in the spirit of this thread.

I don't follow Moto GP that closely but I remember back in the day when Casey Stoner started coming really good in the top category, people were amazed because he hadn't really looked like that kind of guy in the making at all.

[Ruusperi]

Ehh, Damon Hill? He had accomplished nothing and then 1993 happened.

[Dolph]

Fisichella in 2008-2009. No points in 31 races straight. BOOM, suddenly he is on the pole at Spa, and looks like he is actually going to win the Belgian GP in 2009 only to be outdone by the safety car restart. Double-BOOM, next race he is in the works Ferrari... but it was straight to zero again scoring no points and out of F1 entirely. So its more of a zero to hero to double zero.

 

That smile when he sits in the Ferrari at Monza though... Must have been the best week of his life up until he completed a first timed lap in the F60

 

Edited by Dolph, 19 October 2020 - 21:46.

[Lights]

Gasly suffering badly at Red Bull, being lapped by Max a few times, to then podium in Brazil the same year and win at Monza the year after is quite the redemption arc.

 

Season to season, Button went from 9 points in 2 seasons (2007 & 2008) to 6 wins in 7 races in 2009.

 

On a raceday, he went from 7th on the grid to 21st halfway the race to 1st on the final lap at Canada 2011.

 

Though the most literal interpretation of going from zero to hero on raceday is perhaps Max crashing on the formation lap to then finish 2nd at Hungary this year.

[Risil]

Ehh, Damon Hill? He had accomplished nothing and then 1993 happened.

Of course in 1993 he drove with a literal number Zero.

[StraightEdge]

We could say this about Takuma Sato. While talented everywhere he raced at he drove for broke or ended up in the wall or off course which happens way more times earning the nickname Kamikaze. He got AJ Foyt his last victory in Indycars and almost won Indy 500 when he went for it at turn 1 only to crash at turn 1. He would go on to winning Indy 500s and few races such as Portland and Gateway.

 

There was a time of Ralf Schumacher who in his first two years of F1 earning the name Reckless Ralf for amount of times he spun or wreck the car. He jumped into Williams and, in a surprise, drove cleanly in his first season with the team. He ended up winning few races with the team shedding away Reckless Ralf and becoming Racin' Ralf

[garoidb]

Mansell in 1985. I would love to know what happened, what he found, but we will never know. Someone should ask him in an interview but I don't think he would give a reflective answer.

[ensign14]

Given how stellar his overall career ended up, it's easy to forget that Johnny Rutherford had an atrocious Indy record until 1973 - 9 attempts, no finishes, best classified result 18th, even missed a year due to injury.  A record that Dick Simon would have sniffed at.  Even his overall Champcar career had not been outstanding; as many wins as Bud Tinglestad in a decade.

 

Then he got a McLaren, a pole, a great run, and, a year later, a win.

[William Hunt]

Mansell in 1985. I would love to know what happened, what he found, but we will never know. Someone should ask him in an interview but I don't think he would give a reflective answer.

 

I think something clicked when he scored his first F1 victory in Brands Hatch that year. Since exactly that moment his level went up significantly. Rosberg was the better driver at Williams in '85 though.

[FLB]

Mansell in 1985. I would love to know what happened, what he found, but we will never know. Someone should ask him in an interview but I don't think he would give a reflective answer.

Oh no, he's said it. He had a major off at Paul-Ricard in the Williams and got a concussion for it. Missed the race. He was still unwell at Silverstone, but it made him realize thing would go better if he took it down a notch or two (or 35). He completely changed his approach as a result.

 

Then, Spa happened: He didn't go like a madman after Senna and just let the race happen naturally. The result was that the man who had crashed in the barriers at Monaco in 1984 because he was overdriving while leading finished seond behind Senna.

 

 

Then, Brands happened and the rest is history.

[Dolph]

Or maybe the Williams was the best car out on track from Brands 1985 to the end of 1987. Williams did win the last 3 races of 1985

[king_crud]

De Cesaris in the Jordan in 1991

[ARTGP]

Cyril Abiteboul 

[Collombin]

With Mansell having already been covered the next name I could think of was Rodger Ward. Despite an occasional champcar win, he spent a good portion of the 1950s being dominated by a much younger driver and getting involved in some bad crashes, he then vowed to turn his life around. Success in 1957-58 ultimately led to his landing a ride with the Leader Card team in 1959, and he began almost a Ted Horn style run of results at Indy (except with wins too!) and ended up as statistically the most successful roadster driver of them all.

[balage06]

Mick Schumacher? Started every second year in a new category, looking below average, then finding his way into winning. Still one of the junior drivers I'm most conflicted about.

[ensign14]

How about Tiny Lund?

Coming into the 1963 Daytona Speedweeks, Lund had been a regular NASCAR presence for six years, taking part in 133 races, and never winning.  I don't know if he even had a drive for the 500 that year and had just gone along to Daytona on the off-chance, but his huge presence was vital in rescuing Marvin Panch from his burning Maserati, and the Wood Brothers gave him Panch's place for the big race.  And a fairytale win.

[Imperial]

I've always seen Mika Hakkinen's consecutive WDC winning years as some sort of anomaly.

 

I wouldn't have classified him as a down on the ground zero, but he basically seemed kind of alright, then bang two WDC's, and then instantly started to fade away again.

Edited by Imperial, 20 October 2020 - 07:41.

[Alex79]

Kamui Kobayashi from mediocre GP2 driver to supersub in the Toyota F1 when Glock hurt himself

[Baddoer]

Grosjean in 2013

[Nemo1965]

Daring suggestion: John Watson. Between 1975 and 1981 he was, in my eyes, humiliated by all the team-bosses that hired him. Ecclestone, then owner of Brabham, said openly that if Carlos Pace had lived (and not died in a plane-crash) in 1977 he would have been 1,5 seconds faster than Watson at any race and would have become world-champion easily in 1977. Which was unfair in a double way, because Watson that year was either being rammed of by other drivers (Hunt, Andretti) when he was leading a race, or was plagued by mechanical DNF's.

 

In 1978 Watson unceremoniously made 'the other driver' again, when Niki Lauda came to Brabham-Alfa and totally took over the team. In 1979 Watson was offloaded to McLaren, which then proceeded in 1980 to build a car for their new darling Alain Prost... a car which was so small, Watson could not even have sat in it, let alone drive it. When Watson crashed heavily in Zandvoort that year and being treated in the medical center in Zandvoort (close to the Tarzan-corner, by the way) teammanager Tim Mayer did not even visit him. 

 

In 1981 John won the British GP in the brand new first carbon-fibre F1 car, the MP4. Still, one win does not a summer make. Back then, most pundits expressed the opinion that Watson slowly had become integrated with the team, that the team listened to him more (not so strange, since the management of the team had changed considerably with the arrival of Ron Dennis, the departure of Mayer, and so forth). 

 

Then Lauda came back in 1982... and everyone that liked John, moaned and sighed. They knew for certain that The Rat psychologically would destroy Watson and take away all the confidence he had build up. But what happened? Watson was just plain better than Lauda in 1982 and 1983. He qualified behind Lauda most of the time, but in the races he was just superior. And if Watson had not made a severe misjudgement in the winter of 1983 (because he did not know that Prost would be available after his sacking byRenault) and asked for a King's Ransom, HE would have driven the McLaren-TAG turbo next to Niki Lauda in 1984... 

 

In that case, I still think Lauda would have won the battle with John, but for me it is still curious to think back of Watson during his years before 1981 and the years thereafter.

Edited by Nemo1965, 20 October 2020 - 07:57.

[jcbc3]

Kamui Kobayashi from mediocre GP2 driver to supersub in the Toyota F1 when Glock hurt himself

 

nah, he had won three championships on his way. Not top-top class but still there was a reason, beside him being Japanese, that Toyota reached out for him.

 

Championship titles

2008–09:

GP2 Asia Series

 

2005: 
Eurocup Formula Renault 2.0
Formula Renault 2.0 Italia

[noriaki]

Graham Rahal's career was heading the way of Marco Andretti by 2014. Then 2015 happened and he suddenly gave the title a good shot in the weaker of the 2 cars.

---

Looking at the list of world champions - maybe 2 or 3 of the names would have made people question your sanity a lot if you had went and 3 years before them winning their first title foretold them that the driver is gonna win the WDC one day. Graham Hill (1959), and Niki Lauda (1972).

JB is a borderline case. Had his faithful share of fans who still trusted him in 2006, but his future WDC suddenly seemed a lot less plausible prospect in 2007-08...

[Scotracer]

nah, he had won three championships on his way. Not top-top class but still there was a reason, beside him being Japanese, that Toyota reached out for him.

 

Championship titles

2008–09:

GP2 Asia Series

 

2005: 
Eurocup Formula Renault 2.0
Formula Renault 2.0 Italia

 

and he's the master of Le Mans qualifying.

[Piif]

I've always seen Mika Hakkinen's consecutive WDC winning years as some sort of anomaly.

 

I wouldn't have classified him as a down on the ground zero, but he basically seemed kind of alright, then bang two WDC's, and then instantly started to fade away again.

 

He didn't fade away really. In 2000 he was 2nd in the championship and after 2001 he retired.

[Imperial]

Mika had quite the slump across all of his stats in 2000, and in particular in 2001 he dropped off a cliff.

[ensign14]

Looking at the list of world champions - maybe 2 or 3 of the names would have made people question your sanity a lot if you had went and 3 years before them winning their first title foretold them that the driver is gonna win the WDC one day. Graham Hill (1959), and Niki Lauda (1972).
 

 

James Hunt started 1973 by failing to qualify for the Pau F2 race. 
 

[azza200]

Mika had quite the slump across all of his stats in 2000, and in particular in 2001 he dropped off a cliff.

 

well he did say one of the reasons for taking that year out/retirement was he was burnt out and needed a break. 

[Imperial]

Yeah.....hence fitting in with my original assertion.

 

Which has been made, clarified, and is now being left at that.

[Ruusperi]

well he did say one of the reasons for taking that year out/retirement was he was burnt out and needed a break. 

 

Yes, besides 2001 was very poor year in terms of reliability. By Canada Mika had retired 5 times already, and suffered more problems in France, Germany and Italy. Combined with Ferrari's domination it's very understandable he wanted a sabbatical year.
 

 

Btw, do we also need a hero to zero topic?

Edited by Ruusperi, 20 October 2020 - 10:19.

[Spillage]

It's a longer redemption arc, but Takuma Sato was often seen as a bit of a joke when he was in F1. Sort of the Maldonado of his day - I remember Michael Schumacher saying Sato 'needed therapy' after one particularly brain-dead incident.

But look at him now - two-time Indy 500 winner respected the world over. He seemed to peak after the age of 40.

[milestone 11]

Who in '66 contemplated Denny Hulme being the '67 champion? Few did, including me. Black Jack had it in his pocket surely. Denny remains the least spoken of champion in the seventy year history of F1.
With the arrival of the fabulous Lotus 49 at race 3, it gave all the impression that Jim would be unchallenged for the title as the year progressed, it was not to be.

Edited by milestone 11, 20 October 2020 - 10:00.

[Risil]

It's a longer redemption arc, but Takuma Sato was often seen as a bit of a joke when he was in F1. Sort of the Maldonado of his day - I remember Michael Schumacher saying Sato 'needed therapy' after one particularly brain-dead incident.

But look at him now - two-time Indy 500 winner respected the world over. He seemed to peak after the age of 40.

 

It's important to remember that Takuma Sato's motor racing career is only five years longer than Max Verstappen's.

[Nemo1965]

Who in '66 contemplated Denny Hulme being the '67 champion? Few did, including me. Black Jack had it in his pocket surely. Denny remains the least spoken of champion in the seventy year history of F1.
With the arrival of the fabulous Lotus 49 at race 3, it gave all the impression that Jim would be unchallenged for the title as the year progressed, it was not to be.

 

Wasn't it the case (someone like Doug Nye could illuminate that) that Jack Brabham precisely because of the Lotus 49, was looking for an competitive technical edge all the time with his car, while Hulme was just driving the car as it was and under the motto: 'If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.' It was my impression that Black Jack kind of build in his own disadvantage... by looking for the advantage all the time. The Brabhams were always very practical, very safe and very reliable if not meddled with too much. 

 

I seem to remember Denny Hulme even saying something like this, in later interviews...

[garoidb]

Who in '66 contemplated Denny Hulme being the '67 champion? Few did, including me. Black Jack had it in his pocket surely. Denny remains the least spoken of champion in the seventy year history of F1.
With the arrival of the fabulous Lotus 49 at race 3, it gave all the impression that Jim would be unchallenged for the title as the year progressed, it was not to be.

 

He is also not often mentioned when talking about the most versatile drivers, but he raced successfully in a lot of different types of series. 

[absinthedude]

Along with the aforementioned Mansell and Damon Hill I'd say Riccardo Patrese. Considered something of an "enfant terribile" in the late 70s and early 80s despite a couple of wins, he then spent the mid 80s in the doldrums before Williams hired him....his performances in 1989 were a revelation and thereafter he delivered the goods right at the end of his career.

 

De Cesaris from 1991 onwards too. 

[SpeedRacer`]

Pedro Diniz, to an extent. Was originally considered a joke driver but became a respectable midfielder.

[Nemo1965]

James Hunt was mentioned earlier in a byline. But he was a zero that became a hero in the public eye - and became a sex-symbol meanwhile. I quote Doug Nye, from his book Great Racing Drivers: 'Few would deny Hunt's incredible resilience, for throughout his formative racing years he showed a remarkable ability to bounce back from blows and disappointments which would have set a lesser man on the road to a quiet life outside the sport. There was a terrible time when James 'Shunt' was a bar-room joke. Then Lord Hesketh's youthful team put him into 1 and with the right tools Hunt proved he could do a remarkably competitive job.'

 

Note the modest description of Hunt's talent, as perceived before he ended up at McLaren in 1976. If you read old F1-books of before 1976, one can almost sense that most F1-pundits only half grudgingly admitted he could drive, if he had his day (like, say, a kind of Pastor Maldonado avant la lettre). This image was flipped totally after 1976 and 1977, of course.

 

I always felt a bit sorry for James, despite his once glamorous image. I always felt he played a bit of a role, to the outside world, he played the Playboy while perhaps he was more of a shaved (and better looking) Catweazle. I found it poignant that he bred tropical birds after his retirement... and that he once showed up for a coffee with Niki Lauda in London on a bike... with one flat tire. 

[NixxxoN]

Mika Salo 1999 had some great races at Ferrari, some of them outperforming Irvine

Pedro de la Rosa Hungary 2006, he looked like outpeforming Kimi until Kimi crashed

Heidfeld went from bluff to underrated in 2005 vs Webber

Recently I remember Leclerc going from meh to amazing in Bahrain 2018 when he outperformed Vettel comfortably

 

Having said that, I dont think Alex Marquez was ever a zero, because he was always very competitive in lower classes prior to MotoGP, having won Moto3 and Moto2 championships.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

When I started in this forum I immediately received one "warning point" but now I have so many excellence points. A true example of "zero to hero" or even more like "negative to hero" 😁

[MasterOfCoin]

These guys also had a habit of going from zero to hero.....

[TheFish]

I do not think discussing World Champions as zero to hero really hold to the object of the thread, and honestly find including Button as borderline ridicules. These days with need for a super license there really can not be a zero, more a 'very unexpected' - I think Kobayashi fall firmly in to that bracket regardless of his junior championships.

Button had a terrible time in 2007 and 2008 and then was without a drive for a couple of months... and then became WDC in 2009. A remarkable turnaround story.`

[milestone 11]

Wasn't it the case (someone like Doug Nye could illuminate that) that Jack Brabham precisely because of the Lotus 49, was looking for an competitive technical edge all the time with his car, while Hulme was just driving the car as it was and under the motto: 'If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.' It was my impression that Black Jack kind of build in his own disadvantage... by looking for the advantage all the time. The Brabhams were always very practical, very safe and very reliable if not meddled with too much. 

 

I seem to remember Denny Hulme even saying something like this, in later interviews...

 

 

He is also not often mentioned when talking about the most versatile drivers, but he raced successfully in a lot of different types of series. 

Denny was tremendous in Can-Am. To him, the car had to be balanced. When JYS beat Denny in qualifying at Mosport, Denny complained that the rear kept stepping out. He solved this by bolting on a heavily used set of fronts. Not the most technical of solutions, but balance.

[MLC]

These guys also had a habit of going from zero to hero.....

 

How about Pete Aron in '66? He crashed out his teammate (while being lapped) in the opening race. He was then fired and spent a couple rounds as a TV pundit. Then he hops into the Yamura and starts to build an impressive season culminating in winning the WDC!

[messy]

One of my favourites actually was Jimmy Vasser who was CART Champion in 1996 then for the next couple of years a dependable number two to the flashier, more exciting Alex Zanardi. He still won occasionally but very much fell into the number two driver role and faded into the background. 1999 was far worse though, as Zanardi was replaced by Montoya who proceeded to become the new superstar and left Vasser for dead - he took win after win, and Vasser only got a couple of thirds and looked thoroughly beaten down with talk of retirement even back then. 

 

Then 2000 happened, a change to Toyota engines and Lola chassis, and lo and behold Vasser was suddenly competitive again. He ran second in the points in the early stages of the year then took a victory at Houston after a long drought and ended up beating JPM - sixth to ninth - in the points table. 

 

Undoubtedly Montoya was very unlucky that year and all being equal would still have finished ahead but he didn't, Vasser got another day in the sun and it was good to see one of motorsport's real good guys pull himself back like that. 

[DeKnyff]

Not a driver, but a team: Williams, from running second hand March chassis in 1977 at the very back of the grid (think Marussia/HRT, in modern F1 terms), to multiple race wins in 1979 and both Championships in 1980.