127 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

Neither of Hakkinen or Button could be deemed a zero from the starting point of 0 wins and 0 WDC's, yet Vettel with all his wins and WDC's is a zero as his stock is low 'currently'?

Say whaaaaaaaat?!

 

 

I agree with above posters that lets cut the crap about who is zero or not and when. Nobody cares. Each can tell their own story and nobody has to agree.

[Imperial]

Makes for a more interesting discussion though than people just trotting out lists.

[DeKnyff]

I agree with above posters that lets cut the crap about who is zero or not and when. Nobody cares. Each can tell their own story and nobody has to agree.

Motor racing is a sport where the circumstances of a driver, specially the quality of the car he is driving, are extraordinarily important. More than in any other sport.

 

Under that premise, I'd say that a driver is "zero" when he it's generally admitted that he is not quick (or he makes too many mistakes) regardless of the circumstances. When circumstances are at play (namely, a POS of a car), it's just a driver at the wrong place at the wrong time, like Button or Häkkinen at some moment of their respective careers, or Alonso during his second stint at McLaren. "Zeroes" could be Yuji Ide, Jean-Denis Délétraz or Pastor Maldonado. In current Formula 1, it could be the case of Albon or Kvyatt, but not Russell, who is perceived as a good driver in a bad car.

[Dolph]

oh my god, who cares

[Jim Thurman]

Good to see some from U.S. racing on an F1-centric forum...

 

Given how stellar his overall career ended up, it's easy to forget that Johnny Rutherford had an atrocious Indy record until 1973 - 9 attempts, no finishes, best classified result 18th, even missed a year due to injury.  A record that Dick Simon would have sniffed at.  Even his overall Champcar career had not been outstanding; as many wins as Bud Tinglestad in a decade.

 

Then he got a McLaren, a pole, a great run, and, a year later, a win.

 

To be fair, Rutherford had hardly been with good teams, despite many touting his talent and showing flashes, like his first win in 1965. For quite some time, he was viewed as one of the most talented, most unfortunate drivers. Not quite perceived in that way at the level of Ruby, but it was in the same vein. Qualifying 2nd for the 1970 '500' made people think he was finally on his way, but it took a couple more years before he started having some consistently good finishes, which got him to McLaren.

 

How about Tiny Lund?

Coming into the 1963 Daytona Speedweeks, Lund had been a regular NASCAR presence for six years, taking part in 133 races, and never winning.  I don't know if he even had a drive for the 500 that year and had just gone along to Daytona on the off-chance, but his huge presence was vital in rescuing Marvin Panch from his burning Maserati, and the Wood Brothers gave him Panch's place for the big race.  And a fairytale win.

 

Much like Rutherford, only perhaps even more pronounced, Lund was hardly in top flight equipment, but still showed rather well on short tracks, which were truly his forte.

[Jim Thurman]

Alan Kulwicki.  :-(

 

Kulwicki would never be a "zero." He was an amazing underdog that got to the "hero" part by determination, talent and effort, along with some fortuitous sponsorship.

 

He and his team truly were the little team that could. Perhaps the last time we'll see anything like that occur in any major racing series.

 

EDIT: Though Martin Truex and Furniture Row Racing comes close.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 22 October 2020 - 19:37.

[FLB]

Kulwicki would never be a "zero." He was an amazing underdog that got to the "hero" part by determination, talent and effort, along with some fortuitous sponsorship.

 

He and his team truly were the little team that could. Perhaps the last time we'll see anything like that occur in any major racing series.

 

EDIT: Though Martin Truex and Furniture Row Racing comes close.

Kulwicki's story would make a damn fine racing biopic.

 

The 1992 fall race at Atlanta was, IMHO, the best NASCAR race I've ever watched. It literally had everything (Davey Allison losing the championship in a heartbreaking way, Kulwicki the underdog winning it, Petty retiring, Jeff Gordon's debut, etc...).

[bargeboard]

Michel Joudain Jr in ChampCar once he took his sweet sponsorship $$ to Team Rahal.

Edited by bargeboard, 23 October 2020 - 01:38.

[ehagar]

I'm going to cheat a bit and think of an amazing race rather than a career instead. Ralf Waldmann (RIP), Donington 2000. 

 

The man was by no means a zero, he was an exceptional small displacement rider. But he made a decision prior to the race that seemed completely wrong. Ralf opted for a wet set up and full wets, against the wishes of his team. The track was drying and his competition went for intermediates. It looked like a horrible decision. Olivier Jacque and Ukawa were way up the road and Waldmann was on the verge of being lapped. Then with about 10 laps remaining, the weather took a turn for the worse and the   game was on. He gained 36 seconds in the last 3 laps. 11-12 seconds A LAP faster than the leaders! Last corner, on the exit he passed Jacque for the win. Stunned silence from his team.

Edited by ehagar, 23 October 2020 - 02:23.

[messy]

Michel Joudain Jr in ChampCar once he took his sweet sponsorship $$ to Team Rahal.

 

That's a brilliant call. Perennial backmarker and butt of all the jokes for being a hopelessly unsuccessful pay-driver, suddenly turned race winner and third in the championmship when he moved teams. Surely the exact point of this thread is things like that!

[PlatenGlass]

Romain Grosjean. After years in F1 not achieving what he'd hoped and becoming known as an accident blackspot he was announced as leaving the Haas team in 2020, presumably to retire. But at the very next race at Portimao in Portugal an extraordinary sequence of events led to him winning the race.

[moreland]

Heinz Harald Frentzen deserves a shout I think. At the end of 1991, he'd had a dismal season in f3000, had lost his Mercedes backing, lost his Camel sponsorship and had even lost the future Mrs Schumacher. In 1992 and 1993 he was left competing in occasional sports car or Japanese F3000 races. Come 1994, he qualified 5th for his first Grand Prix and was apparently Williams's first choice for a replacement after Imola.

[absinthedude]

Neither of Hakkinen or Button could be deemed a zero from the starting point of 0 wins and 0 WDC's, yet Vettel with all his wins and WDC's is a zero as his stock is low 'currently'?

Say whaaaaaaaat?!

 

Have you seen the criticism of Vettel here and elsewhere? The poll showing the majority of fans think he should just retire? The people saying he should leave Ferrari now, becuase he's so bad? The calls for Ferrari to sack? 

 

If he can pull it together and enjoy an "Indian summer" to his career at Aston Martin then it could be seen zero to hero. The fact that he achieved 4WDCs and numerous wins in the past does not prevent him from being seen in a very different light over the last couple of years.  Whereas there was never any time when onlookers thought Hakkinen should give up. Nor the the majority see Button that way. 

[PayasYouRace]

I suppose there’s nothing wrong with considering a driver’s perception or reputation in answering the thread, but I don’t think that discounts perfectly valid results-based examples like Button.

[Dolph]

Heinz Harald Frentzen deserves a shout I think. At the end of 1991, he'd had a dismal season in f3000, had lost his Mercedes backing, lost his Camel sponsorship and had even lost the future Mrs Schumacher. In 1992 and 1993 he was left competing in occasional sports car or Japanese F3000 races. Come 1994, he qualified 5th for his first Grand Prix and was apparently Williams's first choice for a replacement after Imola.

 

 

Can you give me a source for this? I am very interested in the 1991-1995 driver market. I was of the understanding that Patrese was Williams' first choice. Obv. Head and Frank know the final truth, but I'd like to know where this info was presented.

[moreland]

Can you give me a source for this? I am very interested in the 1991-1995 driver market. I was of the understanding that Patrese was Williams' first choice. Obv. Head and Frank know the final truth, but I'd like to know where this info was presented.

Sure, my source would have been something I'd read at the time rather than something online, but a google found this article

https://www.heraldsc...-fire-frentzen/

 

"Not only did the media relish a head-to-head between the two former Mercedes junior sports car team graduates but Frank Williams had wanted the German on his payroll for a long time. It was only his commendable ethics and loyalty which kept Frentzen in the Swiss-based Sauber team during F1 racing's year of trauma in 1994.

Frentzen was Williams' first choice to drive the second Williams after Ayrton Senna's death on May 1 that year, but he refused to abandon Willi Sauber's close-knit organisation after Karl Wendlinger lay comatose following a qualifying crash at Monaco."

 

Certainly would have had big knock on effect on F1 over the next few seasons if he'd accepted. Would have had a very good shot at the 1995 championship - even if he'd driven at the same pace as DC and Hill, just not making quite so many mistakes, he might have clinched it. DC would not have got the Williams seat and would probably not have become a front runner as quickly as he did, if at all. Also, we would have seen different drivers at Sauber and Mclaren around the 94-96 period at least.

[noikeee]

Heinz Harald Frentzen deserves a shout I think. At the end of 1991, he'd had a dismal season in f3000, had lost his Mercedes backing, lost his Camel sponsorship and had even lost the future Mrs Schumacher. In 1992 and 1993 he was left competing in occasional sports car or Japanese F3000 races. Come 1994, he qualified 5th for his first Grand Prix and was apparently Williams's first choice for a replacement after Imola.

In hindsight the 90s are kind of weird as to where top drivers came from, if you looked at junior series. I know at the time many of the real stars skipped F3000 and were poached straight from F3, so it's not like today where you can see most of the big prospects stay until they fight for the F2 title, but still.

HHF was like you said.
Damon was a fairly old midfielder in F3000, got a couple backmarker races in a Brabham F1, then bam! Straight to the best car.
Schumacher was a F3 star yes, but I'm not sure he was so good that people could possibly imagine, this guy will be the best of his generation by a mile.
JV was unremarkable until Indycar.
Coulthard was one of F3000's front runners yes, but again, straight to the best car in F1 was a weird lucky break.

[Vesuvius]

In his own words he signed on with all the intention to race in 1993. Only that Senna suddenly appeared back with the team, when in Häkkinen's mind it was clear from the way Senna talked to the team that he was never going to race for McLaren in 1993. Häkkinen said it was incomprehensible how Senna could turn those relations around suddenly.

Häkkinen indeed was never considered zero, he was known to be a huge talent and very fast.
In fact Frank Williams wanted him to his team and Williams made a signed contract with Mika, but at the end of 1992 Keke Rosberg (Mika's manager) got a call from Williams and they said that unfortunately they had not signed to be in 1993 season until one day too late!

This normally wouldnt have been a huge problem, but every team had to agree, so they could take apart in 1993 season...unfortunately Lotus team boss Peter Collins said that he would only agree, if Williams cancelled Mika's deal (because he wanted to keep Mika) and even if Keke and Frank tried everything with money etc, the deal had to be cancelled.

Keke with Mika, then decided that there is no way they would race for Lotus anymore, so they talked to Ron Dennis.
Dennis promised a race seat for Mika if Senna would say no to them (as was excpected).But Senna just before the first race decided to sign the deal.

Edited by Vesuvius, 23 October 2020 - 13:03.

[ensign14]

Damon was a fairly old midfielder in F3000, got a couple backmarker races in a Brabham F1, then bam! Straight to the best car.
Schumacher was a F3 star yes, but I'm not sure he was so good that people could possibly imagine, this guy will be the best of his generation by a mile.
 

Hill was actually very fast in F3000, I think he got pole in half the races one year, but he was saddled with the Mooncraft and then with unreliability.

 

Schumacher I had tabbed as being Very Special before he got to F1, I remember complaining to a German friend that Lotus had given a drive to Bartels seemingly because of his famous girlfriend rather than Schumacher.  But it did not take much insider spec for that; there was a LOT of talk re Schumacher, Frentzen, and Wendlinger as being a preternaturally talented trio.

[moreland]

The junior formulae were both fascinating and frustrating in the late 80s/early 90s. There was a lot of variety in terms of teams and circuits they raced at, but at the same time it was very tricky to ascertain how talented all the drivers really were. Allan McNish was in contention for the F3000 title in his debut season in 1990 for example, but Lola had a shocker in 1991 which left him in the midfield and his single seater career lost all momentum.
Schumacher in F3 is interesting, because he was driving a Reynard in 1990, which was itself a shocker. Schumacher transcended the car to be a winner with it, even against the dominating Ralts from British F3 at Macau (even if there's a bit of an asterisk concerning how he won that race). Of course you can't know how an F1 career will pan out based only on F3 results but the signs were there if you looked beyond just the results.

[FLB]

The junior formulae were both fascinating and frustrating in the late 80s/early 90s. There was a lot of variety in terms of teams and circuits they raced at, but at the same time it was very tricky to ascertain how talented all the drivers really were. Allan McNish was in contention for the F3000 title in his debut season in 1990 for example, but Lola had a shocker in 1991 which left him in the midfield and his single seater career lost all momentum.
Schumacher in F3 is interesting, because he was driving a Reynard in 1990, which was itself a shocker. Schumacher transcended the car to be a winner with it, even against the dominating Ralts from British F3 at Macau (even if there's a bit of an asterisk concerning how he won that race). Of course you can't know how an F1 career will pan out based only on F3 results but the signs were there if you looked beyond just the results.

This has been true from the 1960s onwards. It's the reason why Giulio de Angelis bought multiple chassis for his son Elio (a Chevron, a Lola and a March), so he would be sure not to be stuck with the 'wrong' chassis in F3. Quite a few drivers had their momentum broken by not having the right chassis (or engine) at the right time.

Edited by FLB, 23 October 2020 - 18:27.

[PayasYouRace]

Hill was actually very fast in F3000, I think he got pole in half the races one year, but he was saddled with the Mooncraft and then with unreliability.

 

Not quite.

 

In the Mooncraft in 1989 his grid positions were 20, 24, 27, 17, 24, 21, and the results were DNF, DNF, DNS, 14, 16, 15.

 

It was in 1990 in the Lola that he was a bit more successful, managing 3 poles out of 11 races that year, with a further 3 top 3 starts. But his best position was 2nd at Brands Hatch (a fine drive nonetheless). Only 3 other finishes that year, and all out of the points. Things were more consistent in 1990, but never started on the front row, only starting on the 2nd row twice. But a 3rd, two 4ths and a 6h yielded decent points.

[AlexPrime]

I think that Fabio Quartararo belongs here. From what I heard from the local TV guy, he was problematic kid, ready to blame others for his lack of success and never himself. He developed and is now a MotoGP race winner.

[absinthedude]

Can you give me a source for this? I am very interested in the 1991-1995 driver market. I was of the understanding that Patrese was Williams' first choice. Obv. Head and Frank know the final truth, but I'd like to know where this info was presented.

 

Patrese has said that Williams called him up, and he considered it but declined because he realised he hadn't smiled when thinking about F1 since he left at the end of 1993.

 

Whether that means Patrese or indeed HHF was the first choice I am unaware. The sponsors wanted a top driver, hence Mansell's appearances. Williams were apparently happy to use their test driver (DC) for the remaining races. Was an approach made to wrest HHF from Sauber?

[Dolph]

Patrese has said that Williams called him up, and he considered it but declined because he realised he hadn't smiled when thinking about F1 since he left at the end of 1993.

 

Whether that means Patrese or indeed HHF was the first choice I am unaware. The sponsors wanted a top driver, hence Mansell's appearances. Williams were apparently happy to use their test driver (DC) for the remaining races. Was an approach made to wrest HHF from Sauber?

 

As I understod from Patrese his talks with Williams were right after Senna's death.

As I understand Williams were happy to continue with Patrese into 1993 after Mansell decided to take off, but Patrese signed for Benetton believing Mansell and Prost would be in the team for 1993 and he would have no seat.

Regarding Frentzen, another poster said HHF did not want to leave the team after Wendlinger went into a coma.

 

Based on all this I would think Patrese was the first choise as a free agent, recent F1 driver and recent Williams driver and someone Williams wanted to continue on into 1993. 

Edited by Dolph, 23 October 2020 - 21:38.

[absinthedude]

@Dolph that sounds right

[ensign14]

Not quite.

 

In the Mooncraft in 1989 his grid positions were 20, 24, 27, 17, 24, 21, and the results were DNF, DNF, DNS, 14, 16, 15.

Yeah, he wasn't setting poles in the Mooncraft.  But he took it over from Katayama who DNQ'd in 2 out of 4 goes.  And we know Katayama was a decent hand so the problem was not with him.
 

[Viryfan]

Why didn't he want to do Le Mans? I know when he finished second at Le Mans in the same race another driver driving the same model car as him was killed. Is that somehow connected to it? He also participated in many Le Mans between from 1981 to 1991

He did not want to race there because of Mulsanne straight.

 

He had a huge tyre blow out in 1987 one year later Jo Gartner death.

 

He since then pushed for the chicanes.

https://www.86400.fr...ierent-le-mythe

https://www.86400.fr...avis-de-pilotes

 

here in french

Edited by Viryfan, 24 October 2020 - 15:27.