1069 replies to this topic

[Pimpwerx]

I don't understand why Stroll got penalty points for track limits. The collision, I can understand, but track limits are not a penalty point scenario. The time penalty is more than enough in that instance. It's not dangerous for other drivers, so I really don't understand it. I thought Masi was going to curtail this kind of punitive behavior. 

[george1981]

I don't get the stewards reasoning for reprimanding Perez. They said he was too close to the limit of what was acceptable. Not that he was just over the limit and they gave him as small a penalty as possible for being just over the limit. 

It's a limit, he's either below or on the limit of what is acceptable, therefore no penalty. Or he's over the limit and is penalised. 

 

The stewards have said what you did was nearly unacceptable and we will penalise you with a reprimand. I think they should reword their judgement that what we think you did was just unacceptable, i.e. you moved first, you left space, you made one move, but you should have taken into account the differing closing speeds therefore you were just over the limit of what we consider acceptable and you will be penalised with a reprimand. 

[mjjTT]

I don't understand why Stroll got penalty points for track limits. The collision, I can understand, but track limits are not a penalty point scenario. The time penalty is more than enough in that instance. It's not dangerous for other drivers, so I really don't understand it. I thought Masi was going to curtail this kind of punitive behavior. 

 

Kvyat and Grosjean also received a penalty point for the same. I think that the issue is that they keep on violating the  track limits even they get a warning or even shown a black/white flag. I assume they talked about it about during the briefing.

[peroa]

Well, they won't penalize VER cause he is the only one who is able to somehow "disturb" the two mercs, on a good weekend anyways.

The crash with Perez was a slam dunk penalty judging by previous decisions this year, just look at the overhead camera.

Edited by peroa, 26 October 2020 - 08:16.

[shure]

Well, they won't penalize VER cause he is the only one who is able to somehow "disturb" the two mercs, on a good weekend anyways.

The crash with Perez was a slam dunk penalty judging by previous decisions this year, just look at the overhead camera.

I don't think it was as slam dunk as you do

[Taxi]

I've been a Formula 1 fan since 1980. Yesterday was my first race live. I was in the end of the main straight and had a nice view to the straight and first sector.   Here are my takes:

 

1- The Mercedes is like ... in another league. Drives on rails, smothly with no efforts. Hamilton too, the minute I saw that Bottas couldn't make more than 2 seconds on him, I told a friend of mine:  Hamilton is gonna take the lead as soon as we wants. He did and he was gone for ever. Bottas was simply nowhere in pace. I  rate him high but actually yesterday I saw the real diference between the two and it's big. He doesn't attack backmarkers very well either: lost a bunch of time with them. 

 

2- Perez - He was beeing cheered by the crowd when he fell to dead last in the first part of the race. I told my friend he would finnish in the points. He laughed "no way". The recovery was amazing but you can see that car is at least on pair with the Red Bull. Very stable in cornering and great traction.  In the end he was catching Leclerc but then his tires fell of  in two laps.

 

3- Stroll  - he's a bit clumsy on wheel to wheel and his driving is nowhere as smoth as Perez/sainz/leclerc.

 

4- Leclerc- Great race pace, very precise and smooth. Vettel started very slow but progressed. The Ferrrari is not that bad anymore I would say it's  at least on pair with Mclaren/Renault. 

 

5- Mclaren - Showed that flash of brilliance but then went backwards to the midfield. Sainz was in the mix but Norris was simply very slow. 

 

6- Red Bull- The car looks a bit dificult to drive, not as stable as the Mercedes/ Racing Point. The engine sound is amazing. Verstappen  and Albon are two very diferent animals. earing the engine was very usefull to understand this: When leaving the pits into turns 2-3 Max would imediatly go full throtle fighting understeer and shortshifting like a mad man. Albon on the other hand was very hesitant on the throtle in the first 3 corners losing too much time. As for the race pace, it was dramatic. He could not chase Kimi/Ricciardo  as long has they had tires. Embaracing realy, in the second/third best car. 

 

7- Kimi- Amazing start mixing with way faster cars. The crowd was like "how did he ended up there?"  he fought very well with the mediuns making them last like no one else and was genuily faster than Ricciardo/Vettel while they lasted. Sadly 10 laps from the end he couldn't do anything and lost that beautiful point. He was milles ahead of Gio. 

 

8- Gasly was on it all the time, Grosjean was fighty but the car is just poor, as the williams. Kvyat was nowhere again. 

 

9- The sound of the cars is undewhelming. 

 

First race live. It was emotional. 

Edited by Taxi, 26 October 2020 - 15:02.

[boomn]

Personally, I think Stroll's failed overtake was not an entirely boneheaded move and was really close to working.  A big opportunity lost for Stroll as this is the kind of ballsy move that other drivers are praised for.  But the key is making it work of course, lol.  They didn't make contact when Stroll turned in, they made contact at the apex.  Stroll's line through the apex was just too tight and squeezed Norris. 

 

But I have been wondering about how Norris also didn't seem make any attempt to back off.  Was there really no chance to react, was Norris surprised by Stroll's line when he should have expected it, or was Norris being too stubborn about keeping his line even when a driver mostly ahead is turning in tighter? 

 

I wonder how this whole move would have played out in past decades, with drivers having different mindsets about sketchy moves and also about risking a collision to hold your line

[ARTGP]

Personally, I think Stroll's failed overtake was not an entirely boneheaded move and was really close to working.  A big opportunity lost for Stroll as this is the kind of ballsy move that other drivers are praised for.  But the key is making it work of course, lol.  They didn't make contact when Stroll turned in, they made contact at the apex.  Stroll's line through the apex was just too tight and squeezed Norris. 

 

But I have been wondering about how Norris also didn't seem make any attempt to back off.  Was there really no chance to react, was Norris surprised by Stroll's line when he should have expected it, or was Norris being too stubborn about keeping his line even when a driver mostly ahead is turning in tighter? 

 

I wonder how this whole move would have played out in past decades, with drivers having different mindsets about sketchy moves and also about risking a collision to hold your line

 

The problem with Stroll's move is, the inside line was wide open. It would have been ballsy if there was no other way to get by. Instead it just looked silly running out to the curb like that which clearly unsettled the car and that corner is not a two person corner so the last place you'd like to be is the outside.

 

As for the latter comment....Senna vs Prost Japan '89 and '90

Edited by ARTGP, 26 October 2020 - 19:35.

[Squeed]

Personally, I think Stroll's failed overtake was not an entirely boneheaded move and was really close to working.  A big opportunity lost for Stroll as this is the kind of ballsy move that other drivers are praised for.  But the key is making it work of course, lol.  They didn't make contact when Stroll turned in, they made contact at the apex.  Stroll's line through the apex was just too tight and squeezed Norris. 

 

But I have been wondering about how Norris also didn't seem make any attempt to back off.  Was there really no chance to react, was Norris surprised by Stroll's line when he should have expected it, or was Norris being too stubborn about keeping his line even when a driver mostly ahead is turning in tighter? 

 

I wonder how this whole move would have played out in past decades, with drivers having different mindsets about sketchy moves and also about risking a collision to hold your line

 I don't think they made contact until after Stroll spun.  He just carried too much speed into the corner, and lost the rear end up in the marbles.
 

[ARTGP]

 I don't think they made contact until after Stroll spun.  He just carried too much speed into the corner, and lost the rear end up in the marbles.
 

 

It was very much Lance being hit. He didn't spin until Norris hit his rear tire. 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=SIHZMoCl4RM

Edited by ARTGP, 26 October 2020 - 19:37.

[Lights]

The problem with Stroll's move is, the inside line was wide open. It would have been ballsy if there was no other way to get by. Instead it just looked silly running out to the curb like that which clearly unsettled the car and that corner is not a two person corner so the last place you'd like to be is the outside.

And even worse, post-race Stroll seemed so clueless about it:

"I just went around the outside," said Stroll. "It was a bit awkward as he was kind of in the middle of the track and I wasn't sure if he was going to go to the inside or stay on the line."

 

First of all: middle of the track? Watch the footage, Norris is clearly not in the middle, and there was absolutely nothing awkward about it. Norris was driving as straight as an arrow. 

 

He continued: "I had to make a split-second decision and I was on the outside over the kerb. From there I just turned into the corner and I guess there wasn't enough room for both of us, so that was that."

Split-second decision? Watch the onboard, he had all the time in the world to plan his attack. It's remarkable how poor Stroll's racecraft and awareness was in this situation, and that's not even talking about the contact.

Because secondly, that was pretty poor judgement as well. "I just turned into the corner". Meaning, he was basically just winging it and hoping Norris was far enough behind that he would concede.

But he wasn't, and then you leave him nowhere to go. And then Stroll says "there wasn't enough room for both so that was that". Yeah that was that indeed. Easy conclusion.

 

It reminds me of the last time he took Norris out of the race, in Spain 2019, and Stroll's sentiment was exactly the same: "Unfortunately there is not enough space for two cars and there was not much I could do."

Incorrect, Lance. There's plenty you can do. If you're on the outside with a car alongside you and you turn in on the apex, you're gonna have contact mate. And it's gonna happen again if you don't learn from it.

Edited by Lights, 26 October 2020 - 20:35.

[TomNokoe]

The Stroll/Norris soured the race for me. It was incredibly amateur and is ruining the race for 3rd in the WCC. I agree with others that Stroll was completely clueless, Lando couldn't have defended less and yet was still shunted.

[boomn]

And even worse, post-race Stroll seemed so clueless about it:

"I just went around the outside," said Stroll. "It was a bit awkward as he was kind of in the middle of the track and I wasn't sure if he was going to go to the inside or stay on the line."

He continued: "I had to make a split-second decision and I was on the outside over the kerb. From there I just turned into the corner and I guess there wasn't enough room for both of us, so that was that."

First of all: middle of the track? Watch the footage, Norris is clearly not in the middle, and there was absolutely nothing awkward about it. Norris was driving as straight as an arrow. Split-second decision? Watch the onboard, he had all the time in the world to plan his attack. It's remarkable how poor Stroll's racecraft and awareness was in this situation, and that's not even talking about the contact.

Because secondly, that was pretty poor judgement as well. He was basicially just winging it and hoping Norris was far enough behind that he would concede. But he wasn't, and then you leave him nowhere to go. And then Stroll says "there wasn't enough room for both so that was that". Yeah that's an easy conclusion. It reminds me of the last time he took Norris out of the race, in Spain 2019, and Stroll's words were exactly the same. But if you're on the outside and you turn in on the apex with a car alongside you, this can happen mate. And it will happen again if you don't learn from it.

I actually agree with most of that about Stroll.  But I also think that Stroll was far enough ahead in the move (they were about front-wheel to sidepod in the corner), that Norris may have had some opportunity to concede, and that other driver's in Norris's situation may have tried to concede.  I'm not sure if that would have been enough to make it all work, but I think there is a reasonable possibility.  

 

The biggest thing I was pondering is whether not conceding a line unless the other driver is nearly 100% ahead is a recent trend or if the decision threshold (and stewarding threshold) was different in past eras

[HeadFirst]

While everyone is eager to attack Stroll, they seem to be forgetting that Norris on the previous lap, did "park it in the middle of the track and throw in a little wiggle to boot", as reported by Martin. This seems to be a common tactic among the younger drivers, and Norris is not alone in this. No matter .... it was still a clumsy move by Stroll (deserving of a penalty), but perhaps his haste was precipitated by the previous lap. 

[Myrvold]

Personally, I think Stroll's failed overtake was not an entirely boneheaded move and was really close to working.  A big opportunity lost for Stroll as this is the kind of ballsy move that other drivers are praised for.  But the key is making it work of course, lol.  They didn't make contact when Stroll turned in, they made contact at the apex.  Stroll's line through the apex was just too tight and squeezed Norris. 

 

But I have been wondering about how Norris also didn't seem make any attempt to back off.  Was there really no chance to react, was Norris surprised by Stroll's line when he should have expected it, or was Norris being too stubborn about keeping his line even when a driver mostly ahead is turning in tighter? 

 

I wonder how this whole move would have played out in past decades, with drivers having different mindsets about sketchy moves and also about risking a collision to hold your line

 

Why should Norris have backed off? He hadn't been passed, he had the inside line, and arguably, if Stroll had given more room, which he should've done, he would very likely have run off the track, and Norris and McLaren would've had a solid case for a "Stroll gained by going off track" and Stroll having to give the place back, which would've helped the efforts in keeping Stroll behind. It was all about actually giving enough room to each other, not just turn in like there was no-one there.

[Ellios]

[ARTGP]

While everyone is eager to attack Stroll, they seem to be forgetting that Norris on the previous lap, did "park it in the middle of the track and throw in a little wiggle to boot", as reported by Martin. This seems to be a common tactic among the younger drivers, and Norris is not alone in this. No matter .... it was still a clumsy move by Stroll (deserving of a penalty), but perhaps his haste was precipitated by the previous lap. 

 

Unless Stroll was having hallucinations of Norris's Mclaren from the previous lap (which might point to an ongoing COVID diagnosis  ), I don't see why he didn't go to inside line.

Edited by ARTGP, 26 October 2020 - 21:42.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't understand why Stroll got penalty points for track limits. The collision, I can understand, but track limits are not a penalty point scenario. The time penalty is more than enough in that instance. It's not dangerous for other drivers, so I really don't understand it. I thought Masi was going to curtail this kind of punitive behavior. 

 

I do. A driver continually breaks the rules after a being given a warning. Sounds like exactly the kind of thing penalty points are for.

[HeadFirst]

Unless Stroll was having hallucinations of Norris's Mclaren from the previous lap (which might point to an ongoing COVID diagnosis  ), I don't see why he didn't go to inside line.

 

It's called anticipation of an outcome, or an assumption if you prefer. Just like Verstappen assumed (during practice) that Stroll had finished a hot lap and immediately would proceed to a cool off lap (thus giving him a clean pass). Verstappen made that assumption, despite there being every indication that Stroll was doing a second hot lap. Stroll assumed that Norris would make a move to block the inside pass this time, giving him room on the outside. Having made that assumption, and given the DRS closing speed of the RP, he trapped himself in an impossible pass attempt on the outside. Both Verstappen and Stroll in making those assumptions, and by the time they realized their mistake, it was too late. 

[Junky]

I've been a Formula 1 fan since 1980. Yesterday was my first race live. I was in the end of the main straight and had a nice view to the straight and first sector.   Here are my takes:

 

1- The Mercedes is like ... in another league. Drives on rails, smothly with no efforts. Hamilton too, the minute I saw that Bottas couldn't make more than 2 seconds on him, I told a friend of mine:  Hamilton is gonna take the lead as soon as we wants. He did and he was gone for ever. Bottas was simply nowhere in pace. I  rate him high but actually yesterday I saw the real diference between the two and it's big. He doesn't attack backmarkers very well either: lost a bunch of time with them. 

 

2- Perez - He was beeing cheered by the crowd when he fell to dead last in the first part of the race. I told my friend he would finnish in the points. He laughed "no way". The recovery was amazing but you can see that car is at least on pair with the Red Bull. Very stable in cornering and great traction.  In the end he was catching Leclerc but then his tires fell of  in two laps.

 

3- Stroll  - he's a bit clumsy on wheel to wheel and his driving is nowhere as smoth as Perez/sainz/leclerc.

 

4- Leclerc- Great race pace, very precise and smooth. Vettel started very slow but progressed. The Ferrrari is not that bad anymore I would say it's  at least on pair with Mclaren/Renault. 

 

5- Mclaren - Showed that flash of brilliance but then went backwards to the midfield. Sainz was in the mix but Norris was simply very slow. 

 

6- Red Bull- The car looks a bit dificult to drive, not as stable as the Mercedes/ Racing Point. The engine sound is amazing. Verstappen  and Albon are two very diferent animals. earing the engine was very usefull to understand this: When leaving the pits into turns 2-3 Max would imediatly go full throtle fighting understeer and shortshifting like a mad man. Albon on the other hand was very hesitant on the throtle in the first 3 corners losing too much time. As for the race pace, it was dramatic. He could not chase Kimi/Ricciardo  as long has they had tires. Embaracing realy, in the second/third best car. 

 

7- Kimi- Amazing start mixing with way faster cars. The crowd was like "how did he ended up there?"  he fought very well with the mediuns making them last like no one else and was genuily faster than Ricciardo/Vettel while they lasted. Sadly 10 laps from the end he couldn't do anything and lost that beautiful point. He was milles ahead of Gio. 

 

8- Gasly was on it all the time, Grosjean was fighty but the car is just poor, as the williams. Kvyat was nowhere again. 

 

9- The sound of the cars is undewhelming. 

 

First race live. It was emotional. 

 

It was my first live race too. I am still emotional.