305 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

So you don’t have to do much reading between any lines with Vettels comments today which essentially accuse Ferrari of pegging him back (for whatever reason) which makes LeClerc artificially look as if he’s beasting Sebastian.

https://www.motorspo...paign=widget-22

Accurate? And are there any examples in F1 where this has actually been the case?

Russell has accused Redbull of doing this to his pal Albon this year too...

[FirstnameLastname]

Meant to say - sabotaging one car while pushing the other. Not like Arrows in 2002 where they deliberately failed to qualify for races to save money.

[KLF1F]

Flabio

[ARTGP]

I personally did not interpret from anything Seb said that he felt the team was sabotaging him....

 

 

I mean one could argue that Mclaren was putting different fuel loads into the different cars in 2007 to benefit one driver.........................*runs*

Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2020 - 20:58.

[Risil]

Are they sabotaging Vettel's car or just not giving him good equipment?

 

Remember the white powder on Kimi's Ferrari in 2007?

[Lights]

I don't see any quotes from Vettel which accuse Ferrari of anything, even when trying to read between the lines.

 

Not sure where you got it from that he accuses them of sabotaging him.

 

Seems like a bit of a desperate thread to me.

[Requiem84]

I don't see any quotes from Vettel which accuse Ferrari of anything, even when trying to read between the lines.

 

Not sure where you got it from that he accuses them of sabotaging him.

 

Seems like a bit of a desperate thread to me.

 

What does he mean then? it's a very vague quote:

 

"On the one hand, I'm satisfied because I had the feeling that I drove a good race," he said. "I had a hard time at the beginning, lost places, and almost lost the car two or three times. After that I actually drove a good race.

"But, on the other hand, it is obvious that the other car is much faster. Where I lose time? I have been biting my tongue all year long. Some idiot might never figure it out, but am I a complete idiot? I doubt it.

"At some point you should be lucky and hit the limit. I never hit it and if I do, then only with a lot of difficulty. On the other side [of the garage] it looks much easier.

"I have to look at myself and do my thing, but of course it hurts. Especially because my own expectations are higher than the expectations from outside.

"I don't really care about all the fuss. But for me in the car, it is of course difficult to process, because I am too ambitious and too hungry for more."

[ensign14]

There was a story about how Fangio had a problem with a vibration in practice when driving for Maserati.  His mechanics promised to fix it, next day, in the race, no problem at all.

 

Team-mate Felice Bonetto however complained that, after his car was perfect in practice, he had a terrible vibration throughout the race.

[cpbell]

So you don’t have to do much reading between any lines with Vettels comments today which essentially accuse Ferrari of pegging him back (for whatever reason) which makes LeClerc artificially look as if he’s beasting Sebastian.

https://www.motorspo...paign=widget-22

Accurate? And are there any examples in F1 where this has actually been the case?

Russell has accused Redbull of doing this to his pal Albon this year too...

I cannot see a team doing it.  There are, of course, precedents forteams focusing their efforts on one car - none of Jim Clark's team-mates between /innes Iteland in 1961 and Graham Hill in 1967 got much of a chance - but deliberate sabotage?

Edited by cpbell, 25 October 2020 - 21:23.

[messy]

There’s definitely something odd going on at a Ferrari this year. Leclerc is getting far, far more performance out of that car and that disparity between the two is absolutely out of kilter with 2019 where the two were split by virtually nothing. Particularly over a race distance. Sebastian Vettel is not the idiot he’s looking like in 2020 - nowhere near. But right now it appears that Leclerc is driving like an absolute hero extracting such good results from a car that the 4xWDC on the other side of the garage can barely scrape a handful of points in.

But that kind of strange disparity can come out of so many situations and only one (quite unlikely) scenario is that the team are deliberately ‘sabotaging’ the car of their less favoured driver. There’s only one team on the grid where I’d even entertain that possibility and it’s not Ferrari. Maybe Seb’s driving style just doesn’t suit the car, maybe he’s just completely lost his way in the circumstances this year, maybe he can’t find the setup that works for him in the same way, maybe maybe maybe maybe.

Either way I bet he can’t wait to get out of the team. I’d love Vettel to sign off with one more great result though, really would.

[ANF]

What does he mean then? it's a very vague quote:

Perhaps it made more sense in German?

[absinthedude]

Seb's comments certainly suggest he's receiving unequal treatment compared to Charles. I fail to see how this would help Ferrari, however. They have nothing to gain by destroying Seb's reputation. Seb is already driving for Aston next year, and hopefully has a chance to restore his reputation. It doesn't make sense from Ferrari's point of view, to nobble Seb's car.

[Rodaknee]

John Surtees was No 1 driver at Ferrari.  He was forced to drive a 312 at Monaco, but the No 2, Lorenzo Bandini got to drive the better 246.

 

The Ferrari team manager Eugenio Dragoni, believe Surtees was passing information to Eric Broadley at Lola and wanted Surtees out of the team.  He also swapped a car Surtees was racing in sports car events in an attempt to stop him winning.  When Surtees won the race, the FIA received an objection from - Ferrari.
 

Ferrari have form!

Edited by Rodaknee, 25 October 2020 - 21:20.

[Lights]

What does he mean then? it's a very vague quote:

 

It's incredibly cryptic. Who knows what he means. Sabotage accusations wouldn't match with what he said in this article either, or yesterday saying Leclerc is just in a different league right now.

 

But more so, a team sabotaging one of their drivers is incredibly far fetched.

 

Why would Ferrari sabotage Vettel? Do they perhaps think it's a hilarious joke that, despite being able to fight for 3rd in the WCC, they end up 6th by sabotaging one of their cars?

 

"The prank was a success! We totally made Leclerc look good and Vettel look bad, who definitely deserved that for driving his heart out for us 5 years long, haha. Sure we could've perhaps finished 3 places higher in the WCC, but it was totally worth it guys".

Edited by Lights, 25 October 2020 - 21:22.

[Requiem84]

Seb's comments certainly suggest he's receiving unequal treatment compared to Charles. I fail to see how this would help Ferrari, however. They have nothing to gain by destroying Seb's reputation. Seb is already driving for Aston next year, and hopefully has a chance to restore his reputation. It doesn't make sense from Ferrari's point of view, to nobble Seb's car.

 

Perhaps it's not about destroying Seb's reputation, but about enhancing Leclerc's reputation who is being heralded for impossible wonder drivers, because the gap with Vettel is so big. 

 

If you want to market your future star, it's not a strange idea to already start working on his branding... 

[Marklar]

Vettel is probably genuinely 2-3 tenths slower, add on that his high sensitivity to everything (whether it's the car in itself or the team probably caring a bit more about Leclerc), the fact that worse cars tend to widen the gap and Vettel probably himself getting paranoid what is happening this year isnt too surprising.

Many fans just havent realized yet that Vettel, while his peak level is very good, is a very limited driver, so conspiracy theories are logical to kick in. People in the scene are way less surprised about this than the average fan.

It is possible to favour drivers of course. Extremely by giving them better development parts or by having one-sided data transfer, less extreme by making 50/50 decisions like the better engine in favour of one driver. The latter might be the case here, but it isnt making a tremendous difference.

[cpbell]

John Surtees was No 1 driver at Ferrari.  He was forced to drive a 312 at Monaco, but the No 2, Lorenzo Bandini got to drive the better 246.

 

The Ferrari team manager Eugenio Dragoni, believe Surtees was passing information to Eric Broadley at Lola and wanted Surtees out of the team.  He also swapped a car Surtees was racing in sports car events in an attempt to stop him winning.  When Surtees won the race, the FIA received an objection from - Ferrari.
 

Ferrari have form!

You can't compare Dragoni to Binotto, though - it's like comparing Hitler to Angela Merkel!

Edited by cpbell, 25 October 2020 - 21:29.

[efuloni]

Some months ago, a former Sauber mechanic made serious allegations that the team was sabotaging Nasr's car against Ericsson.

I can honestly believe in special treatment and that cars are not equal. However, I doubt very much that a team could make one of the cars WORSE. It doesnt make sense.

[cpbell]

Vettel is probably genuinely 2-3 tenths slower, add on that his high sensitivity to everything (whether it's the car in itself or the team probably caring a bit more about Leclerc), the fact that worse cars tend to widen the gap and Vettel probably himself getting paranoid what is happening this year isnt too surprising.

Many fans just havent realized yet that Vettel, while his peak level is very good, is a very limited driver, so conspiracy theories are logical to kick in. People in the scene are way less surprised about this than the average fan.

It is possible to favour drivers of course. Extremely by giving them better development parts or by having one-sided data transfer, less extreme by making 50/50 decisions like the better engine in favour of one driver. The latter might be the case here, but it isnt making a tremendous difference.

Vettel's technique is predicated on rotating the car before the apex and firing it out, which worked fine in the 2.4 litre era, but a longer car, combined with the Ferrari's predilection towards understeer prevents this from reliably producing laptimes.

[DeKnyff]

There was a story about how Fangio had a problem with a vibration in practice when driving for Maserati.  His mechanics promised to fix it, next day, in the race, no problem at all.

 

Team-mate Felice Bonetto however complained that, after his car was perfect in practice, he had a terrible vibration throughout the race.

But that (if true) is not sabotaging, it's giving the best equipment to the best driver.

[beachdrifter]

Are they sabotaging Vettel's car or just not giving him good equipment?

 

Remember the white powder on Kimi's Ferrari in 2007?

 

It amounts to the same thing in terms how the performance picture looks (which is what I want to focus on here). 

 

The one thing I read about that at a couple races this season, Vettel's car was apparently three tenths slower than Leclerc's car on the straights, and they never figured out why (or chose to not tell him). 

 

But that's the only thing I found strange (and Vettel as well). 

 

Other than that, the psychological side to the performance picture is something that hardly anyone seems to understand. People seem to look at drivers like machines that as long as they're in the car, they show 100% of what they're capable of.

 

I'd say that's mostly it this season. Vettel doesn't want to be there anymore, and his performance shows primarily that.

[nookie]

i think there's a massive disconnect between drivers feeling they're being sabotaged and them actually are. the former is a somewhat natural response to things going personally bad, the latter is ridiculous as formula 1 is a business.

[DeKnyff]

I don't think for a moment that any team is sabotaging their own car. In the case of Ferrari, Leclerc feels more confortable with the car, he is getting better results and Seb is leaving the team, so it's kinda understandable that Charles gets the better attention.

[Dutchrudder]

There was a fairly convincing case made that this happened for Ericsson at Sauber quite recently I believe?

The Vettel-Ferrari fallout has many layers though. You have Ferrari always favour their number 1 hugely, is this what happens when Seb loses number one support that suddenly its impossible to look good. Maybe Massa and Barrichelo were fantastic with what they were given?

You’ve got Vettel’s side, this happened before at Red Bull 2014, he’s not giving his new team which he is supposedly a shareholder in and trouble whatsoever. Possibly losing half a second removes any risk from an edgy car in a lost season?

[noikeee]

Why would Ferrari sabotage a driver just to make him look bad out of spite, whilst in the middle of a tight WCC battle worth millions in prize money?

I know we all have this caricatural vision of Ferrari being this place where a bunch of bumbling idiots make a lot of daft over-emotional decisions, but this sounds more like frustrated talk from a racing driver that's having bad races.

Edited by noikeee, 25 October 2020 - 21:34.

[noikeee]

Remember the white powder on Kimi's Ferrari in 2007?

That was nuts, but basically a double agent / industrial espionage situation, not a call from the top to ruin your own race.

One would hope that was a crazy one-off rather than something that happens routinely in F1! I think?!

[CharlesWinstone]

The car is probably equal but the the package certainly is not.

[Marklar]

What does he mean then? it's a very vague quote:

"biting my tongue" is a very bad translation, he actually said "beisse mir die Zähne aus" which just means that he is having a hard time (then he expanded on that with the upcoming quotes), "biting my tongue" means that you want to say something but can't, which would indeed imply a conspiracy

(though he used a expression like this earlier to talk about how his car lacks consistency)

[totgate]

If any team would do it, it's Ferrari... ;-)

[PayasYouRace]

It wouldn’t be far fetched for Ferrari to put all their efforts behind Leclerc’s car, but I think sabotage or deliberately slowing their other car is another matter altogether. I have no doubt Vettel isn’t receiving the full support of the team this season.

[FirstnameLastname]

If there was some sort of performance clause which they wanted to trigger to enable him leaving then this would make sense.... but now he’s already gone + signed for someone else. It was clear he didn’t want to leave though and was blindsided by it.

[ARTGP]

People shouldn't just take OP's "interpretation" as gospel.. It's clear that is not what Vettel said at all.  RTL is german television....He's not speaking english to german television...Vettel has not accused Ferrari of sabatoging him....

Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2020 - 21:48.

[SophieB]

For historical claims of this happening, Alonso once went on record claiming Renault were doing this in 2006 to stop him going to Mclaren as champion. 

 

Speaking of Mclaren, I always thought it was odd how that lighting stuff apparently spontaneously fell on his car in the garage, smashing the front wing before the 2007 Bahrain GP. Probably just an unfortunate coincidence it occurred after he’d massively fallen out with everybody in the team, though.
 

[ARTGP]

Well some people think that Williams burned down their garage in Spain so Maldonado's car didn't have to go through tech. Is that sabotage? 

[absinthedude]

Perhaps it's not about destroying Seb's reputation, but about enhancing Leclerc's reputation who is being heralded for impossible wonder drivers, because the gap with Vettel is so big. 

 

If you want to market your future star, it's not a strange idea to already start working on his branding... 

 

How does it help if they are artificially making Charles look good......if Seb then goes on to be "reborn" at Aston and Carlos turns out to be equal to Charles? 

[ARTGP]

How does it help if they are artificially making Charles look good......if Seb then goes on to be "reborn" at Aston and Carlos turns out to be equal to Charles? 

 

Well Ferrari has always been a little....shortsighted....

[PayasYouRace]

Well some people think that Williams burned down their garage in Spain so Maldonado's car didn't have to go through tech. Is that sabotage? 

People who think that don’t know much, because his car wasn’t in the garage. It was in parc ferme, with the others.

[P123]

For historical claims of this happening, Alonso once went on record claiming Renault were doing this in 2006 to stop him going to Mclaren as champion. 

 

Speaking of Mclaren, I always thought it was odd how that lighting stuff apparently spontaneously fell on his car in the garage, smashing the front wing before the 2007 Bahrain GP. Probably just an unfortunate coincidence it occurred after he’d massively fallen out with everybody in the team, though.
 

 

At round 3?  I recall a McLaren (possibly Mika) driving out of the garage with the overhead gantry still attached (which duly fell onto the car) one year.  Or the sidepod bung they left in JB's car at Monaco on his lap to the grid, which cooked the internals and cause him to retire.  Or taking fuel out instead of putting it in, wrongly installed rear dampers and numerous other 'issues' on Hamilton's car in 2012.  Or the time they managed to fit the front tyres on the wrong side for DC at Suzuka, causing him to spin.  On the subject of tyres, leaving a car out bleeding 5s per lap to his teammate whilst visibly worn to the canvas (scandalous...).  McLaren have a long history of operational cock ups.  Actually looking back at 2012 they were incompetent to such a degree that only the explanation of sabotage could spare their blushes.  Must have been somebody at the wind up.   For proper sabotage, see Canada 2005, where under SC they called race leader JPM after he;d passed pit entry, relegating him to the back.  But it did get Kimi into the lead...

 

As for Vettel and Ferrari, I'm sure there will be some things they will be withholding.  Not generally in terms of car performance, but in terms of fine detail regarding info for setting up the car.  They won't want him taking secrets with him. Add in that he;s a bit slower than Leclerc anyway, and is not a fan of the handling of the current car. 

[P123]

People who think that don’t know much, because his car wasn’t in the garage. It was in parc ferme, with the others.

 

They just didn't factor in what damage Pastor could do with a celebration sparkler...

[ARTGP]

People who think that don’t know much, because his car wasn’t in the garage. It was in parc ferme, with the others.

 

  Well that can't be it then. I recall some conspiracy about the fire being a coverup of something

Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2020 - 22:13.

[SophieB]

At round 3?  I recall a McLaren (possibly Mika) driving out of the garage with the overhead gantry still attached (which duly fell onto the car) one year.  Or the sidepod bung they left in JB's car at Monaco on his lap to the grid, which cooked the internals and cause him to retire.  Or taking fuel out instead of putting it in, wrongly installed rear dampers and numerous other 'issues' on Hamilton's car in 2012.  Or the time they managed to fit the front tyres on the wrong side for DC at Suzuka, causing him to spin.  On the subject of tyres, leaving a car out bleeding 5s per lap to his teammate whilst visibly worn to the canvas (scandalous...).  McLaren have a long history of operational cock ups.  Actually looking back at 2012 they were incompetent to such a degree that only the explanation of sabotage could spare their blushes.  Must have been somebody at the wind up.   For proper sabotage, see Canada 2005, where under SC they called race leader JPM after he;d passed pit entry, relegating him to the back.  But it did get Kimi into the lead...

 

As for Vettel and Ferrari, I'm sure there will be some things they will be withholding.  Not generally in terms of car performance, but in terms of fine detail regarding info for setting up the car.  They won't want him taking secrets with him. Add in that he;s a bit slower than Leclerc anyway, and is not a fan of the handling of the current car. 

I don’t think the Bahrain sabotage theory in 2007 has much credibility, and you’re right the main argument against it is it hadn’t really gone truly sour yet so you’re left with the argument of the team just wanting it for Lewis more and at any cost. Still, by the end of that year, the FIA did make the extraordinary step of appointing some kind of fair play official to keep an eye out for Mclaren funny business, such was suspicions engendered.

[RPM40]

Perhaps it's not about destroying Seb's reputation, but about enhancing Leclerc's reputation who is being heralded for impossible wonder drivers, because the gap with Vettel is so big. 

 

If you want to market your future star, it's not a strange idea to already start working on his branding... 

 

Ferrari don't care about that. Leclerc is genuinely faster than Vettel, Vettel trodding around outside the points is to no ones benefit. 

 

People forget, at the start of last year Vettel was the publicly stated number 1 at Ferrari, he even got strategy preference. 

[RPM40]

Vettel is probably genuinely 2-3 tenths slower, add on that his high sensitivity to everything (whether it's the car in itself or the team probably caring a bit more about Leclerc), the fact that worse cars tend to widen the gap and Vettel probably himself getting paranoid what is happening this year isnt too surprising.

Many fans just havent realized yet that Vettel, while his peak level is very good, is a very limited driver, so conspiracy theories are logical to kick in. People in the scene are way less surprised about this than the average fan.

It is possible to favour drivers of course. Extremely by giving them better development parts or by having one-sided data transfer, less extreme by making 50/50 decisions like the better engine in favour of one driver. The latter might be the case here, but it isnt making a tremendous difference.

 

I do have to wonder if people surprised by this saw the 2014 season. The car is of course, much worse than the 2014 Red Bull, but the form is similar.

[ARTGP]

I do have to wonder if people surprised by this saw the 2014 season. The car is of course, much worse than the 2014 Red Bull, but the form is similar.

 

The 2014 season is by no means a guarantee that it would be repeated. Especially not after 2015.

 

No one is expecting a 2011 season from Hamilton any time soon just because it happened over 6 years ago....

 

No one is expecting a '16-'17 season from Verstappen again....He's past that.

Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2020 - 22:28.

[absinthedude]

People who think that don’t know much, because his car wasn’t in the garage. It was in parc ferme, with the others.

 

And I was told by someone in the pitlane that weekend that one Williams team member received serious burns to his leg.

 

Utterly stupid to think Williams caused that fire on purpose. 

 

Seb's form is sad, and it's strange. I certainly don't think that a happy, on form Seb is as far from Charles as we are currently seeing. But equally I suspect it's a Seb issue more than Ferrari sabotaging him. I just don't see the benefit in sabotage. 

 

Seb might *think* something dodgy is happening....but then so did Mansell at Ferrari....he was probably a bit paranoid too.

Edited by absinthedude, 25 October 2020 - 22:32.

[PlayboyRacer]

For anyone thinking Ferrari are "sabotaging" Seb... I invite you to look at qualifying results from France 2019 to now. Also take a close look at qualifying gaps from Paul Ricard, Silverstone, Spa and Russia 2019. I think you'll find all you need.

Unless of course you think Seb was being "sabotaged" last year too. Perhaps also in 2014.

It's doing Charles a real injustice even alluding to that. We all know Vettels limitations and everyone has see what's happened to him since Hockenheim 2018.

Look no further than the guy behind the wheel.

[ARTGP]

For anyone thinking Ferrari are "sabotaging" Seb... I invite you to look at qualifying results from France 2019 to now. Also take a close look at qualifying gaps from Paul Ricard, Silverstone, Spa and Russia 2019. I think you'll find all you need.

Unless of course you think Seb was being "sabotaged" last year too. Perhaps also in 2014.

It's doing Charles a real injustice even alluding to that. We all know Vettels limitations and everyone has see what's happened to him since Hockenheim 2018.

Look no further than the guy behind the wheel.

 

I've long pondered if Hockenheim '18 even makes a difference to what we are seeing today. Was that really a turning point? Sure it cost him some points but I don't even think the title for Seb in '18 would have changed what we are seeing today. (unless that title meant Arrivabene didn't get sacked and Kimi never left)

Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2020 - 22:37.

[PlayboyRacer]

I've long pondered if Hockenheim '18 even makes a difference to what we are seeing today. Was that really a turning point sure it cost him some points but I don't even think the title for Seb in '18 would have changed what we are seeing today. (unless that title somehow meant Arrivabene didn't get sacked and they never signed Charles)

You have a point. Though his form and the slew of mistakes/spins since that exact race do absolutely show a trend... just coincidence?

I won't read into Vettels comments as things may be lost in translation. But perhaps he's still a little delusional with where he's at. We'll only know the real story next year, where he'll have nowhere to hide. The car will be good and he'll be expected to deliver.

[shure]

So you don’t have to do much reading between any lines with Vettels comments today which essentially accuse Ferrari of pegging him back (for whatever reason) which makes LeClerc artificially look as if he’s beasting Sebastian.

https://www.motorspo...paign=widget-22

Accurate? And are there any examples in F1 where this has actually been the case?

Russell has accused Redbull of doing this to his pal Albon this year too...

actually I think you have to do an awful lot of reading between the lines to come to that conclusion. 

[thefinalapex]

I don’t think they are sabotaging him but it is curious that he usually is fighting with Raikkonen and the haas duo while the Ferrari is a better car then the alfa and haas. He had Kimi’s number quite convincingly during their time together so its strange that he has a lot of problems beating him now in a better car.