61 replies to this topic

[Henk Vasmel]

After DCN’s request for Italian Motor Sports discussion groups, I followed some of the links suggested, and I found a thread about the ideal grid.

It wasn’t worked out completely but some good lists were shown. Yet I liked the idea, so let’s try here.

 

After a hundred years from now, none of the people currently busy in F1, or indeed busy in the past, will be alive, so let’s hope they will all be in heaven.

 

Now we are organizing a Grand Prix in heaven. It’s up to you to come up with the details.

 

We want to know:

- The circuit [on earth?] (combinations of favorite circuits are allowed)

- The length of the race (F1 or GP, so one driver per car only)

- The entry list:

                Fifteen 2 car teams. Any team from history is allowed. Rules will be provided to create equality between the teams so it is possible to enter a 30’s team against a current team on equal terms. Teams will be able to enter a car to these rules with                           the same quality as they did in reality.

                Give some details about the specification of the cars. All cars to the same spec. of course

                Each team has two drivers. There must be a well-known link between the team and the driver mentioned. So, for instance, G. Villeneuve can be listed for Ferrari or McLaren, but not Mercedes.

- The Grid. You can consider the ability of each of the teams at the top of their powers. Forget about formative years or years in decline. And couple that to your driver’s best performances.

- The result of the race. Classification from 1-30 or retirements. Including fastest lap.

 

All heavily flavored by your own preferences of course, that’s the fun part of it.

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 31 October 2020 - 19:27.

[Michael Ferner]

All cars to the same spec? Oh, no, not another spec formula - I'm out

[Henk Vasmel]

All cars to the same spec? Oh, no, not another spec formula - I'm out

So you only like Formula Libre. that's what you say?

[RCH]

Why only 2 car teams? It is a relatively recent rule restricting teams to 2 cars. Multi car teams as with, say, Mercedes or Ferrari in the past or singleton entries should be allowed. My team? Moss, Hill G and Hill D in BRMs or Vanwalls but that wouldn't be allowed either....

[Michael Ferner]

So you only like Formula Libre. that's what you say?

 

Er, no... there's quite a bit of room between a spec formula and Formula libre! What's wrong with good ole' Formula One?

[Henk Vasmel]

Er, no... there's quite a bit of room between a spec formula and Formula libre! What's wrong with good ole' Formula One?

Nothing. Only there have been many Formula one specs over the years, and I just wanted you to chose one (or a combination of more) to create cars that you like. Like 750KG max or 3 liter V8/V12 or whatever you like.

[Michael Ferner]

All right, that's different, I misunderstood. All cars to the same formula, then, not the same spec? [that is, all cars to have max. 3000cc engine displacement and, say, 500kg min. weight, instead of all cars to have Ford Cosworth engines and, say, March chassis]

[Henk Vasmel]

All right, that's different, I misunderstood. All cars to the same formula, then, not the same spec? [that is, all cars to have max. 3000cc engine displacement and, say, 500kg min. weight, instead of all cars to have Ford Cosworth engines and, say, March chassis]

That's it, Sorry if the word spec was not clear.

 

I also have made a little change to the rules. instead of 15 2 car teams, a few one car private teams are allowed. This has been a feature of Grand Prix racing for so long, that it should be in.

[Henk Vasmel]

Why only 2 car teams? It is a relatively recent rule restricting teams to 2 cars. Multi car teams as with, say, Mercedes or Ferrari in the past or singleton entries should be allowed. My team? Moss, Hill G and Hill D in BRMs or Vanwalls but that wouldn't be allowed either....

Multi car teams I consider a bit of a poverty solution. If there are not enough teams, you expand the few there are. I want many teams from all over history (with an emphasis in each persons personal preferences of course)

 

Singleton entries will be allowed. An oversight from my side. Still 30 entries in total to prevent the encyclopedia of motorsport being entered. 

 

Damon Hill in a Vanwall is a nice idea. Maybe for race two we will loosen the the rule of being linked with the team itself. For now it is there to prevent 30 drivers in a 30 car Mercedes team. After all fantasy is allowed.

[Tim Murray]

Hope I haven’t misunderstood the rules, but here goes:

Entries:
Georges Boillot & Dario Resta - Peugeot L56
Louis Chiron & Pietro Bordino - Bugatti T51
Tazio Nuvolari & Guy Moll - Alfa Romeo Tipo B
Bernd Rosemeyer & Achille Varzi - Auto Union Typ C
Lewis Hamilton & Richard Seaman - Mercedes-Benz W125
Jean-Pierre Wimille & Alberto Ascari - Alfa Romeo 158
Juan Fangio & Jack Brabham - Maserati 250F
Stirling Moss & Ayrton Senna - Lotus 33
Graham Hill & Jochen Rindt - Brabham BT33
Froilán González & Jo Siffert - BRM P160
Jim Clark & Ronnie Peterson - Lotus 72
Gilles Villeneuve & Niki Lauda - Ferrari 312B
Dan Gurney & Alain Prost - McLaren M7A
Rudolf Caracciola & Michael Schumacher - Mercedes-Benz W196
Jackie Stewart & Chris Amon - Matra MS120D

The circuit included the best bits from (the old) Spa, the Nordschleife, Brands Hatch and Cadwell Park.

Results:
1. Bernd Rosemeyer
2. Tazio Nuvolari
3. Gilles Villeneuve
4. Jim Clark
5. Dan Gurney
6. Jochen Rindt
7. Guy Moll
8. Rudolf Caracciola
9. Dario Resta
10. Jo Siffert

Fastest lap: Villeneuve

Retired:
Ayrton Senna - accident with Schumacher
Alain Prost - accident with Senna
Michael Schumacher - accident with Prost
Chris Amon - puncture while leading
Georges Boillot - burst pride
Lewis Hamilton - tyres
Achille Varzi - driver unwell
Ronnie Peterson - accident
Froilán González - problems fitting into cockpit
Graham Hill - loose moustache
Louis Chiron - affronted dignity
Stirling Moss - crumpet overheating
Pietro Bordino - gear selection problems
Richard Seaman - water leak
Niki Lauda - got bored
Jean-Pierre Wimille - loose bonnet
Jack Brabham - out of fuel
Alberto Ascari - engine

DNS
Jackie Stewart - time constraints
Juan Fangio - missed flight

[Henk Vasmel]

Hope I haven’t misunderstood the rules, but here goes:

 

Mostly correct. Just that you stated type numbers for the cars, where makes would have been sufficient. I take that as the reason why you picked those makes.

But looking at the names of the drivers, this is exactly what I intended.

Oh and what is your favorite car specification?

[Tim Murray]

Oh and what is your favorite car specification?

V16 engine behind driver, supercharged, godawful independent suspension set up.

[john aston]

Given Seaman's background and the ghastly company he kept the pit garage banter with Lewis might have been a tad frosty.... 

[Glengavel]

Hope I haven’t misunderstood the rules, but here goes:

 

(snipped for brevity)

 

Very good, but Clark fourth?!?

 

In my GP everyone is driving Lotus 43s which have been hastily fixed on the starting grid.

[Charlieman]

Given Seaman's background and the ghastly company he kept the pit garage banter with Lewis might have been a tad frosty.... 

...or may have been like his comradeship with Hermann Lang.

[Tim Murray]

Very good, but Clark fourth?!?

He was delayed at the start after forgetting to switch his fuel pump on.

[Dipster]

All right, that's different, I misunderstood. All cars to the same formula, then, not the same spec? [that is, all cars to have max. 3000cc engine displacement and, say, 500kg min. weight, instead of all cars to have Ford Cosworth engines and, say, March chassis]

 

 

I like the idea of Formula Libre- almost literally. As long as the car is safe let's see what designers come up with and what the best spec is, no? What we get with fixed specifications is designer's interpretations of the rules. No, I would like to see what people could come up with with unfettered minds..

[2F-001]

With a nod towards Dipster's way of thinking...

 

... my race will be run to FIA Group 9 regs, c. early 70s

  - e.g. see FIA Yearbook 1971, Appendix J, Art. 299

  - in accordance, subsequent developments of cars and later engine iterations are permitted

 

The initial race will be held on the early 70s version of the Osterreichring.

If popular, further events may be run on 70s spec Spa-Francorchamps, Elkhart Lake, etc.

 

If held this year, the race would be titled the Rothmans 664,700 - in accordance with The Bank of England historical Inflation Calculator

 - (prize fund for 2120 to be determined…, but instead of cash it might be paid in hand sanitizer, face masks and toilet rolls, or the precious metal of the day, i.e. plutonium)

 

Ten teams have committed thus far, others are in negotiation for starting money.

 

Race report in due course…

 

JW Automotive: Rodriguez, Siffert - - Porsche 917K flat 16

Penske Racing: Donohue, Redman - - Porsche 917-30

Chaparral Cars: Elford, Stewart - - Chaparral 2J

Team Lotus: Clark, Rindt - - Lotus 79

Classic Team Lotus: Andretti, de Angelis - - Lotus 88B with later Cosworth HB

McLaren Cars: Fittipaldi, Scheckter - - McLaren MP4 (or M8F?)

Brabham: Pace, Mears - - Brabham BT49

TWR: Lammers, Hawthorn - - Jaguar XJR14

Scuderia Ferrari: M Schumacher, Villeneuve - - Fiat S76

Porsche: Bellof, Stuck Jnr. - - Cisitalia 360

Edited by 2F-001, 02 November 2020 - 08:47.

[Stephen W]

Circuit – Aintree

Event – British GP

Distance - 75 laps

 

Entry List:

Lotus – Jim Clark & Nigel Mansell

BRM – Graham Hill & Pedro Rodriguez

Ferrari – Gilles Villeneuve & Ludovico Scarfiotti

Lola – Chris Amon & John Surtees

BRP – Innes Ireland & Trevor Taylor

Cooper – Bruce McLaren & Tony Marsh

Porsche – Dan Gurney & Jo Bonnier

Mercedes – Juan Manuel Fangio & Niko Rosberg

RRC Walker – Stirling Moss & Jo Siffert (Lotus)

March – Niki Lauda & Mario Andretti

Brabham – Jack Brabham & Frank Gardner

Shadow – George Follmer & Jackie Oliver

HWM – Duncan Hamilton & Peter Collins

Centro-Sud – Umberto Maglioli & Bruce Halford (Maserati)

Alfa Romeo – Kimi Raikkonen & Luigi Fagioli

 

Starting Grid:

Jim Clark (Pole)               Juan Manuel Fangio                    Stirling Moss

             Graham Hill                                  Gilles Villeneuve

Nigel Mansell                  Niko Rosberg                                Kimi Raikkonen

             Jackie Oliver                                 Jack Brabham

Niki Lauda                       Mario Andretti                             Ludovico Scarfiotti

             Pedro Rodriguez                          Innes Ireland

Luigi Fagioli                     Bruce McLaren                             Dan Gurney

             Jo Siffert                                       Jo Bonnier

Chris Amon                     John Surtees                                Frank Gardner

             Trevor Taylor                               Tony Marsh

George Follmer              Duncan Hamilton                        Umberto Magioli

             Bruce Halford                              Peter Collins

 

Practice: several drivers had been out on the lash and consequently didn’t perform as well as expected due to a combination of Thwaites Bitter and Scouse. Fangio & Moss dominated practice until the last 5 minutes when Jim Clark swept through to claim pole whilst Fangio was distracted by having to pace Rosberg. Scarfiotti was a tad off the pace due to the venue being “too flat”. The 107% rule was waived thus allowing the somewhat dated HWMs and Maseratis to join in. George Follmer qualified down the order due to jet-lag whilst John Surtees lost his best two times due to Track Limit infringements as he took a short cut down Melling Road!

 

Results:

1. Jim Clark (Lotus) 2 Hrs 26 Mins 20.8 Secs 92.25 mph
2. Juan Manuel Fangio (Mercedes) 2 Hrs 26 Mins 22.25 Secs
3. Graham Hill (BRM) 2 Hrs 27 Mins 10.0 Secs
4. George Follmer (Shadow) 2 Hrs 27 Mins 56.0 Secs
5. Kimi Raikkonen (Alfa Romeo) 74 Laps
6. Jack Brabham (Brabham) 74 Laps
7. Mario Andretti (March) 74 Laps
8. Niki Lauda (March) 74 Laps
9. Ludovico Scarfiotti (Ferrari) 73 Laps
10. Innes Ireland (BRP) 72 Laps
11. Luigi Fagioli (Alfa Romeo) 72 Laps
12. Bruce McLaren (Cooper) 71 Laps (DNF engine)
13. Jo Siffert (Lotus) 70 laps
14. Frank Gardner (Brabham) 70 Laps (DNF gearbox)
15. Bruce Halford (Maserati) 68 Laps
16. Peter Collins (HWM) 67 Laps

Retirements:

Chris Amon (Lola) Lap 1 crashed with Trevor Taylor at Waterway Corner

Trevor Taylor (BRP) Lap 1 rammed Amon and retired

Jackie Oliver (Shadow) Lap 10 spun on oil at Anchor Crossing

Tony Marsh (Cooper) Lap 11 spun on oil at Tatts Corner

Umberto Magioli (Maserati) Lap 15 retired out of oil

Dan Gurney (Porsche) Lap 40 retired to the pits with cracked chassis

Jo Bonnier (Porsche) Lap 45 retired to the pits with cracked chassis

John Surtees (Lola) Lap 48 retired with double puncture of left-hand tyres due to persistently driving on 2 wheels.

Duncan Hamilton (HWM) Lap 50 retired in the pits after running out of beer (NB pit stops for “fuel” on laps 10, 20, 30 and 40.)

Nigel Mansell (Lotus) Lap 55 stopped at Village Corner when a Woolworth’s bolt in suspension snapped (NB Mansell later rushed to hospital when a Marshal punched him for being “a boring Brummie”.)  

Stirling Moss (Lotus) Lap 60 retired with overheating – stopped on Picnic loop to chat up Cilla Black!

Gilles Villeneuve (Ferrari) Lap 62 retired after hitting Valentines and Beechers Grand National fences. He parked the two wheeled Ferrari on Railway Straight so he could do a bit of train spotting!

Niko Rosberg (Mercedes) Lap 66 retired as he was feeling a bit tired

[Michael Ferner]

Okay, let's do it:

 

 

Circuit: full Nürburgring, of course (i.e. incl. Südschleife), although I was tempeted to go for the Mountain Course on the IoM, but it's too narrow - we don't want modern day follow-the-leader "action", we want overtaking

 

Length: 20 laps, I should say? I think that makes about 560 km, or roughly 350 miles

 

Entry:

 

- (1896) Panhard-Levassor

1 Fernand Charron 2 René de Knyff (spare Léonce Girardot)

 

- (1901) Mercedes

3 Fernand Gabriel 4 Christian Lautenschlager (spare Camille Jenatzy)

 

- (1914) Peugeot

5 Georges Boillot 6 Dario Resta (spare Jules Goux)

 

- (1922) Fiat

7 Felice Nazzaro 8 Pietro Bordino (spare Vincenzo Lancia)

 

- (1925) Alfa Romeo

9 Antonio Ascari 10 Giuseppe Campari (spare Nando Minoia)

 

- (1933) Maserati

11 Tazio Nuvolari 12 Luigi Fagioli (spare Philippe Etancelin)

 

- (1936) Auto Union

13 Bernd Rosemeyer 14 Achille Varzi (spare Hans Stuck)

 

- (1938) Mercedes-Benz

15 Rudi Caracciola 16 Hermann Lang (spare Manfred von Brauchitsch)

 

- (1946) Alfa Romeo

17 Giuseppe Farina 18 Jean-Pierre Wimille (spare Raymond Sommer)

 

- (1951) Ferrari

19 Alberto Ascari 20 Luigi Villoresi (spare Froilán González)

 

- (1955) Mercedes-Benz

21 Juan Fangio 22 Stirling Moss (spare Hans Herrmann)

 

- (1960) Cooper/Climax

23 Jack Brabham 24 Bruce McLaren (spare John Surtees)

 

- (1963) Lotus/Climax

25 Jim Clark 26 Graham Hill (spare Jochen Rindt)

 

- (1969) McLaren/Ford

27 Denny Hulme 28 Emerson Fittipaldi (spare Mike Hailwood)

 

Damned, time is trunning out...   ... and I realize I need a team of Millers...

 

- (1923) Miller

29 Jimmy Murphy 30 Ernie Triplett (spare Ralph de Palma)

 

 

Can I have a few alternate starters?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 November 2020 - 15:47.

[ReWind]

What you need is pre-qualifying or elimination runs.

[Henk Vasmel]

 

Can I have a few alternate starters?

 

No, you already have spare drivers. Once very common, so perfectly allowed. But you have to chose your favorites, not to enter the phonebook. 

I see that Emmo is your most recent driver. There are already some more entries with an emphasis on the past (I would/will list Auto Union and Mercedes too). There are some more recent names that I am still missing. But it is the Nostalgia Forum of course.

[tcsparky]

Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart in Rob Walker's Team Scotland running Lotus 72s 

 

[Michael Ferner]

Understood. But there have been developments, and rumours are filtering through that the boat from America is not coming in. The organizing AdH (Automobilclub des Himmels) has decided to accept the following reserve entries in case those rumours prove to be true:

 

- (1973) Tyrrell/Ford

31 Jackie Stewart 32 Jody Scheckter

 

- (1979) Williams/Ford

33 Nelson Piquet 34 Alain Prost

 

In the event, the boat with the Millers and the US drivers, as well as Fangio, González, Fittipaldi and Piquet fails to arrive. Dario Resta is also missing as he had been with his wife in New York, and is substituted by Jules Goux. McLaren try desperately to nominate James Hunt instead of Hailwood, while (1955) Mercedes-Benz feels their chances have been compromised by Fangio's forced forfait, and try to poach von Brauchitsch from their sister team, to replace the inexperienced Herrmann. Meanwhile, practice begins with last-minute entry Jody Scheckter setting the initial pace...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 November 2020 - 20:33.

[Henk Vasmel]

Understood. But there have been developments, and rumours are filtering through that the boat from America is not coming in. The organizing AdH (Automobilclub des Himmels) has decided to accept the following reserve entries in case those rumours prove to be true:

 

Unlikely. We have global warming, so the boat being ice-locked is a very remote chance. Maybe the race could be on Antarctica Beach, if the tires can stand the heat.

I know a lot of people who would be very surprised when German turned out to be the standard language in heaven?

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 02 November 2020 - 20:58.

[Michael Ferner]

Controversy flares up, as Nelson Piquet arrives with the Williams team, he having stayed in Holland with a girl friend and thus not affected by the non-arrival of the boat from America. Both Williams take to the track immediately, incurring the wrath of the stewards (not to mention Stewart, who is held up at the pit exit as there are already 30 cars on the track!). An emergeny meeting of Alfred Oldfarmer and Bernhard Eckstein of the team principals and Herr von und zu und auf und davon from the AdH tries to resolve the confusion, and practice is terminated for the rest of the day, after only two of the five scheduled hours, and with only four more practice days remaining.

 

Wednesday is a complete washout with drizzle all day and low hanging clouds, and a bit of a scandal developing when the mist finally lifts at the end of the day, and the authorities note that someone had stolen the castle. Finally, on Thursday morning a revised entry list is published, with (1955) Mercedes-Benz and (1914) Peugeot now down to one car each (von Brauchitsch refusing to drive along a plebeian Englishman, and Goux receiving six bottles of champagne in return for his forfait), while both the reserve teams are on full song, along with the other 13 teams not affected, with Hunt indeed now in the second McLaren (late in leaving the pits after some delays while a hangover from the previous evening was being "repaired"), and everyone else in his allotted place. The pace is hot right from the start, with Varzi and de Knyff setting an early pace, and Hulme, Piquet, Clark and Rosemeyer not far behind. But, the surprise of the five-hour session is a late scorcher of a lap by Wimille, dropping the lap record by ten seconds. Rosemeyer is second, followed by Varzi, Piquet, Prost, Scheckter, Stewart, with Boillot, Lautenschlager and Hunt completing the top ten.

[Michael Ferner]

Friday is a bit of a disappointment for the crowd of tens of thousands of souls, as an on-and-off rain keeps the track damp enough for the entire day to prevent really fast laps. Raymond Sommer subs for Wimille who calls in sick with a case of Vichy fever, and surprises everybody by going quickets in the tricky conditions! Farina in fourth makes it a good day for the younger Alfa Romeo team, while Nuvolari and Hill are also on the leaderboard, but the times are generally down by several minutes. On Saturday, though, the sun is beating down and in glorious weather a superb fight over starting positions ensues. In the end, it's Fernand Charron from Ascari, father and son, with Gabriel fourth and Clark completing the front row. Moss is sixth, with Scheckter, Prost and Villoresi completing row 2. Boillot, recovering just in time from a bout of moustache cold, is tenth, then Bordino, Lang, Hunt and Lautenschlager, who amazes everybody by completing every lap he does in the same time, to the one-fifth of a second! Caracciola, Stewart, Hill and Piquet follow in row four, with Hulme, Brabham, de Knyff, Farina and a recovered Wimille in the fifth. Varzi is duly disappointed in lining up 24th, but at least he's ahead of Nuvolari and Fagioli, with a very dejected Rosemeyer completing row six. Only three cars will start from row seven, led by McLaren, with Campari and Nazzaro bringing up the rear.

 

Sunday morning dawns wet from overnight rain, but with the sun breaking through it looks like a glorious day for racing is on the cards when, completely out of the blue and at noon, the race is suddenly cancelled due to a CoViD outbreak in heaven.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 November 2020 - 23:11.

[2F-001]

Unlikely. We have global warming...

 

There is global warming in heaven? (See post n. 1). So the future is less bright than even cynics like me suspected...!

:-)

[Tim Murray]

Pretty obvious really. Heaven is above the earth. As we know, the earth is warming, and heat rises ...

[Charlieman]

I'd like to reinvent the first years of 2.5 litre F1, using some wealth from the magic money tree to fund teams to create even more splendid grids. Coventry Climax would continue the FPE project, of course, so Kieft would be a new entrant, and HWM and Connaught would have much better prospects. In Italy, Lancia would pursue the D50 design with Jano in control, Ferrari would create a new chassis from scratch and Maserati would have to accelerate their development of the 250F. Gordini would have a chance to crack reliability problems and employ better drivers. 

 

I fear that Cooper would fluff the opportunity and propose building a car based on the Cooper-Bristol which might not appeal to Coventry Climax who would already be committed to supplying engines for six or so cars. A rear engined Cooper-Climax FPE might not be realised for another season. Vanwall will have proved themselves to be competent in their first season, but there will be a lot of competition for talented British or Commonwealth drivers. BRM, of course, will be BRM...

 

I have decided that the time transporter for drivers only works in a forward direction. ie drivers from the past may be entered but not from after the 1955 season.

 

My entry for the 1955 Belgian Grand Prix will thus be:

 

Mercedes-Benz (Juan Manuel Fangio & Richard Seaman)

Kieft-Climax (Stirling Moss)

HWM-Climax (John Fitch & Lance Macklin)

Connaught-Climax (Andre Pilette & Prince Bira)

Ferrari (Mike Hawthorn & Giuseppe Farina)

Lancia (Alberto Ascari & Vincenzo Lancia)

Gordini (Jean Behra & Paul Frere)

Maserati (Luigi Musso & Froilan Gonzalez)

BRM (Ken Wharton & Hans Stuck)

Vanwall (Peter Collins)

 

In spite of the number of entries from works teams, there's still room on the grid for private entrants (eg Jacques Swaters on a Ferrari, Johnny Claes on a Maserati). It's 1955 so drivers are on the car rather than in it.

 

Practice is a mixture of wet and dry weather, but it looks like Mercedes and Connaught have made a mistake bringing the slipstreamers to this race. The grid is drawn by ballot with Lancia (Lancia) on pole alongside Horace Gould (private Maserati) and Robert O'Brien (private Gordini). Horace makes his typically fast start on a slippery track, for two miles heading the 'big boys' (who with the exception of Gonzalez are smaller than him). Fangio's Mercedes with its closed body is unsuited to drizzle and track spray and is quickly passed by Moss, Frere and Behra on their nimble less powerful cars. Frere takes the lead in the group for an hour, ten seconds ahead, and it looks to be his race. However wind drives away the clouds and dries the track. From 90 seconds behind, Fangio eases his way past the three cars and takes control for the final 20 minutes. All three contenders are in trouble, alas. Gordini may have magically made his cars reliable but the tyres are worn, whilst the Kieft has an intermittent ignition problem. Farina catches up, passing three strugglers in the final mile.

 

Result:

Fangio (Mercedes)

Moss (Kieft-Climax)

Farina (Ferrari)

Frere (Gordini)

Behra (Gordini)

Trintignant (Ferrari)

[RCH]

Speaking as a confirmed born again atheist there seems to be a couple of problems with this concept. First of all there are certain drivers who cannot possibly be there. Why? Because they are in another place, naming no names of course we all know who we mean. Then, surely, in heaven there can be no losers? 

 

Sorry I'm in a funny sort of mood at the moment.....

[Glengavel]

Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart in Rob Walker's Team Scotland running Lotus 72s 

 

Nice idea, but I'd rather see Jim in a Lotus 72 versus Jackie in Tyrrell 003, or a 49 versus an MS10/MS80.

[cpbell]

Interesting idea...

Formula: 750Kg.

Entrants:

 

Renault:  Szisz and Alonso

Ferrari: Villeneuve (G) and Ickx

Maserati: Campari and Fangio

Alfa Romeo: Nuvolari and Farina

Lotus: Clark and Senna

Williams: Hill (D) and Reggazzoni

Mercedes: Lang and Hamilton

Brabham: Hulme and Piquet

Peugeot: Boillot and Goux

Auto Union: Rosemeyer as a single entry

Bugatti: Chiron and Bordino

McLaren: Prost and Fittipaldi

RRC Walker (Cooper): Moss as a single entry

BRM: Siffert and Hill (G)

Tyrrell (Matra): Stewart and Cevert

Panhard: Charron as a single-car entry

Lancia: Ascari as a single-car entry

 

Circuit:  1924 Lyons GP

 

Grid and results to follow.

Edited by cpbell, 03 November 2020 - 16:08.

[cpbell]

Grid:

 

Lang       Fangio      Nuvolari

 

Hamilton   Charron   Clark

 

Senna    Moss    Stewart

 

Alonso   Ickx    Ascari

 

Chiron   Prost   Rosemeyer

 

Hill (G)  Fittipaldi   Boillot

 

Goux   Bordino  Farina

 

Cevert  Hill (D)   Piquet

 

Siffert   Hulme   Szisz

 

Campari  Reggazzoni  Villeneuve

[cpbell]

Notes:  Villeneuve last on grid due to crashing road car on the way to circuit for the final timed practice session.  Charron effected repairs in pits after hitting stray dog and complained that the course was too short.  Senna argued with Stewart after passing him aggressively at Quatre Chemains.  Lang said he was pleased that both he and second-place Fangio were trained mechanics, saying that a lengthy race on a difficult circuit would suit their mechanical sympathy.  Hulme hurt his feet walking the course and decided to drive barefoot.  Alonso performed illusions for his fellow drivers on Friday night before falling-out with his team management, while Goux provided champagne, Campari the dinner and Graham Hill demonstrated how to dance on a table. 

Edited by cpbell, 03 November 2020 - 18:16.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Circuit. Monza.

Entries.

BRM V16. Hawthorn, Collins, Wharton.
BRM P25. Behra, Schell, Masten Gregory.
Alfa Romeo 159. Fangio, Farina, Fagioli.
Alfa Romeo Tipo B. Nuvolari, Varzi, Bordino.
Lancia D50. Ascari, Castellotti, Ascari (Antonio).
Maserati 250F. Stirling Moss, Luigi Musso, Onofre Marimon.
Ferrari. Villoresi, Gonzalez, Rodriguez, Menditeguy.
Connaught. Bueb, Lewis Evans, Rolt, Macklin.
OSCA. Bira, Rol, Cabianca.

DNA. Mercedes Benz, Auto Union, Vanwall, Cooper, Lotus.

Distance 350 Miles.

Winner. As long as its a BRM, Alfa Romeo, Maserati or Lancia. I dont mind.

[2F-001]

Speaking as a confirmed born again atheist there seems to be a couple of problems with this concept. 

 

Ah... but there is a cruel joke that creation has played on humanity: there is a heaven - of sorts - but it's only open to atheists... so that, if they do get there, they can spend the whole of eternity reflecting on the revelation that they were wrong!

[Doug Nye]

At Jenks's funeral our clergyman friend Lionel Webber said "I can just picture Jenks there in Heaven right now, fiercely arguing with God that He doesn't exist...".  

 

DCN

[john aston]

The menu served on 11- 13 July 1986 at Brands Hatch will suffice for me. Better still, it happened - and I know , because I was there . Or was it all a dream ?   

[Allan Lupton]

At Jenks's funeral our clergyman friend Lionel Webber said "I can just picture Jenks there in Heaven right now, fiercely arguing with God that He doesn't exist...".  

 

DCN

Sometime later someone came up with the idea of Jenks and the Bod in heaven debating how they both came to be somewhere that neither of them believed in.

[jacko]

What fun!

 

My drivers are from the era when I first became interested in the sport until said interest began to wane.

 

The regs are from mid 1980's. Tire changes, refuelling and time travel are all permitted.

 

The only stipulation is that the named driver must have driven, in one series or another, the make of chassis or engine he drives here.

 

Drivers                          Car                                                  Sponsor              Tyre

 

1  Jim Clark                  Lotus Renault                                   JPS                    Dunlop

2  Jochen Rindt

 

3 Jackie Stewart           Tyrrell Ford                                       Elf                      Dunlop

4 Francois Cevert

 

5 Nelson Piquet            Brabham BMW                                 Parmalat            Pirelli

6 Carlos Reutemann

 

7 Dan Gurney               Eagle Weslake                                 Olsonite             Firestone

8 Mario Andretti

 

9 Alain Prost                 Renault                                            None                  Michelin

10 Rene Arnoux

 

11 Emerson Fittipaldi    McLaren TAG                                  Marlboro             Goodyear

12 Niki Lauda

 

13 Keke Rosberg         Williams Honda                                Canon                Goodyear

14 Nigel Mansell

                                                                                                         

15 Gilles Villeneuve     Ferrari                                               Fiat                     Pirelli

16 Michael Schumacher 

 

17 Alan Jones              Benetton Ford                                   Sisley                 Pirelli

18 Gerhard Berger

 

19 Pedro Rodriguez      BRM                                                Yardley               Dunlop

20 Jo Siffert

 

21 Chris Amon              Ligier Matra                                     Gitanes              Michelin

22 Didier Pironi

 

23 Ronnie Peterson       March Alfa Romeo                         Lord Hesketh      Dunlop

24 James Hunt

 

25 Ayrton Senna            Works Honda                                 None                   Goodyear   

26 John Surtees

 

27 Jacky Ickx                 Rob Walker Lotus Ford                  Brook Bond Oxo   Dunlop

 

All engines are fully developed 1.5 litre turbos. The Race distance is 300 miles. The venue the old Spa, 1967 spec. 

 

Thought it would be useful to include sponsor to picture the cars in their possible colours

 

I bet Sky Sports F1 would break some viewing records for a Sunday afternoon!

 

Would anyone care to speculate on the pole sitter and his time?    

Edited by jacko, 04 November 2020 - 15:49.

[Henk Vasmel]

I am thoroughly enjoying all the provided entry lists and the remarks full of humor provided. This is just what I intended to get. Keep them coming.

Am working on my own list as well.

Still waiting for Doug Nye's entry list. He will probably enter 4 BRM's, of which only 3 appear. No.4 still under construction.    

[d j fox]

Two Worlds Trophy Revival- A “New World” v “Old World Clash

Three races make up the event

 

1 Tropheo Martini: Monza Banked Circuit

2 Tropheo AGIP Supercortemaggiore: Monza combined banked and road circuit

3 Tropheo “Birra Moretti: Pescara

 

 Entry List

 

1: AJ Foyt  Eagle Weslake T1G :All American Racers

36: Dan Gurney: Eagle Weslake T1G: All American Racers

3:Hans Stuck (Jnr):Auto-Union D Type:Auto-Union AG

4:Bernd Rosemeyer:Auto-Union D Type:Auto-Union AG

44:Lewis Hamilton:Mercedes-Benz W196 (1):Daimler-Benz AG

5:Rudi Caracciola:Mercedes-Benz W196:Daimler- Benz AG

7:Stirling Moss:Vanwall:Vandervell Products

8:Geoff Duke (2):Vanwall:Vandervell Products

9:Claude Ballot Lena:Alfa Romeo Tipo 158:Autodelta

10:Andrea De Adamich:Alfa Romeo Tipo 158Autodelta

11:Graham Hill:BRM P578 (3):Owen Racing Organisation

12:Pedro Rodriguez:BRM P578 (3):Owen Racing Organisation

14:Jim Clark: Aston Martin DBR4/250:David Brown Corporation

15:Sergio Perez:Aston Martin DBR4/250:David Brown Corporation

16:Maurice Trintignant:Bugatti T 59:Automobiles Ettore Bugatti

17:Henri Pecarolo:Bugatti T 59Automobiles Ettore Bugatti

18:Juan Manuel Fangio:Maserati 250F:Scuderia Centro Sud

19:Juan Pablo Montoya (4):Maserati 250FScuderia Centro Sud

20:Alberto Ascari:Lancia D50:Scuderia Lancia

21:Sandro Munari:Lancia D50:Scuderia Lancia

22:Prince Bira:ERA R2B “Romulus”:White Mouse Stable

23:Hon. Patrick Lindsay:ERA R5B “Remus”:White Mouse Stable

25: Lorenzo BandiniLancia Ferrari D50:North American Racing Team

26: Bob Bondurant:Lancia Ferrari D50:North American Racing Team

27:Carel Godin de Beaufort:Porsche 804:Porsche Systems Engineering

28:Tazio Nuvolari:Porsche 804:Porsche Systems Engineering

29:Chris Amon:Matra Simca MS120 (5):Equipe Matra Elf

30:Jean Pierre Beltoise:Matra Simca MS120:Equipe Matra Elf

56:Jim Hurtubise:Mallard Offenhauser (6):USAC/Team USA

88:Chuck Daigh:Scarab Offenhauser:Reventlow Autos Inc.

89:Augie Pabst:Scarab Offenhauser:Pabst Brewing Co Inc.

98:Parnelli Jones:Watson Offenhauser (7):USAC/Team USA

Notes

1. Typical of Mercedes they had the streamliners for the Monza races and the swb open wheelers for Pescara
2. Part of the Norton engine development deal
3. Stack Exhausts
4. Other than South American no connection…I really want to see JPM in a 250F!
5. Extra runners, organisers discretion “ We like the noise”….
6. “Pepsi Frito Lay Special”
7.  “Willard Battery Special”

Reserve Drivers

Alfa Romeo: Guiseppi Campari

Aston Martin: Roy Salvadori

Auto-Union: Hans Stuck Snr

BRM: Jo Siffert

Bugatti: “Williams”

Eagle: Bobby Unser

ERA: Bob Gerrard

Ferrari: Umberto Maglioli

Lancia Eugenio Castelotti

Maserati : Luigi Musso

Mercedes: Keke Rosberg (Nico doing TV commentary instead….)

Porsche: Jo Siffert

Scarab : Richie Ginther

TEAM USAC: Art Malone + STP Novi

Vanwall: Peter Collins

 

Believe that some of the reserve drivers took part in some races

Don’t have the results—any suggestions? but I reckon “New World “ was in with a good chance!!!

 

Enjoy!

David 

Edited by d j fox, 05 November 2020 - 22:13.

[Henk Vasmel]

Circuit: Monaco, leading onto the Nordschleife. 20 laps

Formula: 2.0 L V12 with two turbo’s and 20% extra electric power. Rear engined, four wheel drive. Every aerodynamic surface must be at least 0.25 m^2, to prevent minor details influencing aero performance

 

14 teams + 2 Private entries

Mercedes                           Lewis Hamilton                  Rudi Carracciola

Auto Union                         Bernd Rosemeyer             Tazio Nuvolari

Ferrari                                Wolfgang von Trips           Gilles Villeneuve

Alfa Romeo                        Juan-Manuel Fangio        Jean-Pierre Wimille

Maserati                             Alberto Ascari                   Achille Varzi

Porsche                             Jo Bonnier                        Carel Godin de Beaufort (Private)

Lotus                                  Jim Clark                          Ayrton Senna

Eagle                                  Dan Gurney                     Bruce McLaren

Brabham                            Jack Brabham                  Carlos Pace

Tyrrell                                 Jackie Stewart                  François Cevert

McLaren                             Niki Lauda                        Jochen Mass

Williams                              Alan Jones                       Damon Hill

Renault                               Alain Prost                        Fernando Alonso

Red Bull                             Max Verstappen                David Coulthard

Rob Walker Delahaye       Stirling Moss

Lord Hesketh Hesketh       James Hunt

 

Grid

1 Alain Prost                                       2 Lewis Hamilton                              3 Jim Clark

                                4 Max Verstappen                           5 Tazio Nuvolari

6 Rudi Carracciola                             7 Juan-Manuel Fangio                    8 Ayrton Senna

                                9 Gilles Villeneuve                           10 Dan Gurney

11 Bernd Rosemeyer                      12 Jackie Stewart                             13 Achille Varzi

                                14 Jean-Pierre Wimille                   15 François Cevert

16 Carlos Pace                                   17 Niki Lauda                                     18 Fernando Alonso

                                19 Alberto Ascari                              20 Alan Jones

21 James Hunt                                   22 David Coulthard                          23 Stirling Moss

                                24 Bruce McLaren                            25 Damon Hill

26 Jack Brabham                              27 Jochen Mass                                28 Wolfgang von Trips

                                29 Jo Bonnier                                     30 Carel Godin de Beaufort

 

In their own words:

Prost: I just did a quick lap, I didn’t realize it was good enough for pole

 

Hamilton: The 3rd sector was key. That’s where I got 6 thousands on Clark.

 

Clark: Front Row. Have a good start and we will beat them all

 

Verstappen: My car should have been 3^rd, but the tires went off in the last part of my Q lap

 

Nuvolari: Practised well. Now we know the circuit. Sunday is the race

 

Carraciola:I will talk to Alfred to see if I can get Lewis’s engine for the race

 

Fangio: I spun off twice, so now I know how fast I can go

 

Senna: I got into a trance in my last lap and almost forgot about the tunnel

 

Villeneuve: The car is bad, but we will fight for it

 

Gurney:If I win this race, I can also run for president

 

Rosemeyer: I slowed down a bit, thinking of Elly. Tomorrow is the big day

 

Stewart: Ay laddie. This wee car is not too quick

 

Varzi: I don’t understand why I’m so slow. But I’ve got something up my sleeve

 

Wimille: Had to save the car a bit for tomorrow. Better make it last then.

 

Cevert: Qualified in the top half. The race is more important anyway

 

Pace: Some car trouble. But my team will repair it.

 

Lauda: I didn’t show them where I’m fast. Tomorrow will be a surprise for them

 

Alonso: Wrong tyres today. And my teammate played a trick on me

 

Ascari: This car runs better at Monza

 

Jones: It’s going to be a tough race. And I’m tough

 

Hunt: Anybody seen Suzy?

 

Coulthard: Honoured to be in the middle of the field with so many great stars

 

Moss: Was reading the pit signs for Mass and didn’t understand what I had to do

 

McLaren: Too bad I couldn’t drive my own car, but Dan was nice enough to ask me.

 

Hill: Nice to have my dad in the pits for once. But his ideas are so old-fashioned

 

Brabham: Qualifying is not so important. Consistency is all.

 

Mass: I was lucky to be asked at the last moment. A bit rusty, but tomorrow will be alright

 

Von Trips: At first I forgot to do the Monaco circuit too. You don’t expect that in the Eifel

 

Bonnier: We are going to have a GPDA meeting about this qualifying

 

De Beaufort: Not bad for a four year old ex-factory car. Tomorrow we will see how far we can get.

 

Result

1              Max Verstappen                              Red Bull

2              Lewis Hamilton                                Mercedes

3              Alain Prost                                       Renault

4              Rudi Carracciola                              Mercedes

5              Bernd Rosemeyer                            Auto Union

6              Jim Clark                                          Lotus

7              Stirling Moss                                    RRC Walker Delahaye

8              Juan-Manuel Fangio                        Alfa Romeo

9              Tazio Nuvolari                                   Auto Union

10           Jochen Mass                                     McLaren

11           Jo Bonnier                                         Porsche

12           Jackie Stewart                                   Tyrrell

13           François Cevert                                 Tyrrell

14           Niki Lauda                                          McLaren

15           Wolfgang von Trips                            Ferrari

16           Fernando Alonso                               Renault

17           Jack Brabham                                   Brabham

18           Alan Jones                                        Williams

19           Bruce McLaren                                  Eagle

20           Carlos Pace                                       Brabham

21           Ayrton Senna                                     Lotus                                   Retired

22           Damon Hill                                         Williams                               Retired

23           Dan Gurney                                       Eagle                                   Retired

24           Jean-Pierre Wimille                           Alfa Romeo                          Retired

25           James Hunt                                       Hesketh                               Retired

26           David Coulthard                                Red Bull                               Retired

27           Alberto Ascari                                    Maserati                              Retired

28           Gilles Villeneuve                               Ferrari                                  Retired

29           Achille Varzi                                      Maserati                               Retired

30           Carel Godin De Beaufort                  Porsche                                Retired

 

In their own words:

 

Max Verstappen: Had a good start A bit boring after that. It’s a long circuit, so no backmarkers to overtake. Kept my tires alive so I could change them late.

 

Lewis Hamilton: Bad start and then I got into dirty air from Max. Had to change tires too early. Nice challenge at the end, but not quite enough. Thought I had fastest lap, but…. Well, I have always been a Senna fan

 

Alain Prost: Smooth run into third. Engine not quite up to power, maybe the fuel?

 

Rudi Caracciola: War Grossartig. After halfway, my hip began to hurt again. It’s not used to lying down so much while driving

 

Bernd Rosemeyer: These tires didn’t suit our cars. But the speed was good.

 

Jim Clark: Was just thinking about having a good chance when a tire blew. Lost a lot of time, but at least I fought back into the points. What do you mean points down to 10^th place?

 

Stirling Moss: Great praise for the mechanics to repair the car overnight. Burnt to the ground is quite some damage. Fortunately, we had a spare tub and lots of spare parts

 

Juan-Manuel Fangio: The team thought we had to change tires 5 times. The others did much less. With these drivers it’s difficult to compensate for the time lost.

 

Tazio Nuvolari: Correrai ancora più veloce per le vie del Cielo.

 

Jochen Mass: A good result, given the lack of preparation.

 

Jo Bonnier: Spun twice, would have been much higher up without that

 

Jackie Stewart: Today we didn’t do well. And I had to pay attention too much to this guy in my mirrors. Smooth driving made me finish at least in this position

 

François Cevert: Not fun looking into the exhaust pipes of Jackie for the whole race, but he didn’t make the mistake that would have allowed me to overtake.

 

Niki Lauda: Didn’t perform as well as I could. This old Nürburgring still gives me the shivers

 

Wolfgang von Trips: As a true gentleman, I let a lot of the others go first

 

Fernando Alonso: Today the engine felt like a Formula 2 machine

 

Jack Brabham: Usually steady does it for me. But the others were too damn fast for me today

 

Alan Jones: I Could have been much faster but I couldn’t bring myself to overtaking grand master Jack

 

Bruce McLaren: The second car of the team wasn’t up to it today, so we were pretty slow. And I forgot about the speed limit in the pitlane, which made me lose a lot of places

 

Carlos Pace: These young boys are mad. Three different drivers hit me in the opening lap, so the repairs made my race really hopeless. At least Carel retired early so I’ve not been 30^th, but still I was last

 

Retirements

 

Ayrton Senna: I was leading late in the race except for Verstappen who shouldn’t have been there because he is too young. I was lapping faster and faster and got into a trance. When I woke up, the car was in the guard rail. At least I’ve got fastest lap

 

Damon Hill: Was following Senna closely, but I had no idea of overtaking him. When he suddenly crashed, I ran over debris and had to retire myself

 

Dan Gurney: Car was running well but the engine went. Ah, well, that’s racing

 

Jean-Pierre Wimille: Car had been misfiring since the start. Maybe dirt in the fuel. My car hadn’t been used for a long time before this race

 

James Hunt: Every lap I was waving to Suzy, but then suddenly I didn’t see her in her usual place, so I had a Shunt

 

David Coulthard: I was being nice to one of those Italian guys, but he just ran me off the track

 

Alberto Ascari: So fragile, these Maseratis, especially when you force them to break lap records

 

Gilles Villeneuve: I spun of more or less, but didn’t want to reduce speed. A tire burst. When I came int the pits there was nothing left to put a new tire onto.

 

Achille Varzi: Started well, and overtook quite a few drivers. Then I started to feel funny, and needed some more medicine. My team didn’t allow me to continue then.

 

Carel Godin De Beaufort: Yes, that’s what you get with an old car. It’s fast enough, but at the start something in the driveline broke and I didn’t even make the first corner. So we finally have to replace that part before the next race.

[LittleChris]

Very good Varzi comments, especially the first one  !

[Michael Ferner]

Following on comments in earlier posts, I understand heaven as an alternate universe in a quantum physics sense, where n possible "universes" exist and there's an m which is smaller than n but bigger than 1 or zero (whatever s supposed to reflect "our" universe) with incremental changes (so I simply picked one m that suited me). Which is I think very close to what the majority of people with a concept of "heaven" think it is like. Anyway, I thought about my choice and decided to pick a different m, with everything the same but the last sentence modified to:

 

Sunday morning dawns wet from overnight rain, but with the sun breaking through it looks like a glorious day for racing is on the cards. Giuseppe Campari is invited to sing the national anthems of all partaking nations, but unfortunately this takes longer than anticipated, and night begins to fall as he finishes, resulting in the race being postponed to the following day. Monday morning the weather is fine, but Hermann Lang is now missing because he has to register at the Mercedes-Benz time clock back in Stuttgart for regular work in the engine shop, and Manfred von Brauchitsch takes over, so it is him who takes the lead after anticipating the flag and rocketing away from the third row to reach the Südkehre even before the front row starters shift into second gear. Prost is last away, waiting in vain for a green light to appear, while Piquet is less affected because he wasn't paying attention to the starting method anyway, but ogling one of the grid girls instead, and mashes the throttle as soon as he hears the noise of the other cars rising. With all engines on full sing, the scene resembles an opera house as the crowd listens attentively to a concerto grosso with a furious fortissimo, until the sound slowly but inevitably ebbs away as the cars funnel through the Südkehre one by one, and then disappear through the dense Eifel woods in direction of Müllenbach, After what feels like eternity, but really takes only a very few minutes, the familiar sound of high revving engines is heard once again from the direction of the Scharfer Kopf, necks are craning and all eyes are staring southwards in an..........................ticipation!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 09 November 2020 - 16:40.

[Parkesi]

Small sidestep after reading Michael Ferner/02.11.2020 ("full Nürburgring incl. Südschleife") plus Emerson Fittipaldi.

There is a Texaco commercial with Emmo/Lotus 72 in YouTube. www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPs_603dUe0

On board Südschleife, must be 1972/73 - never seen before. A

[bradbury west]

In post 44 above, perhaps Jean-Pierre Wimille was driving  the car which someone thought was Maurice Trintignant’s car even though it was the wrong make

Roger Lund

[Michael Ferner]

One thing I neglected to state so far is the formula to which my race is run, the Heavenly Formula One (HFO), which stipulates that all cars are to their well known period specifications, but with their performance adjusted to the same level by some sort of "divine" intervention - of course, we all know it's just physics anyway, and special relativity in particular: in order to get all the participants to compete at their individual prime we have to warp spacetime just a tiny little bit (you don't want to warp it too much, lest you'll have Fred Flintstone enter his Flintstone Special, and if you don't warp it at all you'll end up with a "Black Hole", i.e. a 2020 Mercedes-Benz annihilating its opposition), and thereby create the effect of velocity time dilation (cf Lorentz transformations, Minkowski space etc.). I don't want to bore you with details you'll probably know only too well, so I'll just state that HFO uses rapidity instead of velocity, and proper-timekeeping by inertial observers in parallel non-linear reference frames, obviously.

 

So, to continue with the race report, when the cars arrive back at the start/finish area (only now running the in opposite direction on the straight leading towards the Nordkehre), von B is still leading with his brutish Mercedes-Benz, but the nimble Tyrrell/Ford of Scheckter is hard on his heels, with Charron towering on his Panhard-Levassor only a few feet behind and the tiny Lotus/Climax of Clark in fourth - a sight to behold! Gabriel is next followed by Moss in sixth, and the rest of the closely bunched field passes in one big roaring staccato of sound, too fast to identify individual cars and driving lap chart keepers to despair, once again showing the merits of the smartly devised HFO. Animated discussions on the grandstands follow once Prost, still bringing up the rear, has disappeared through the Nordkehre and down towards the Hatzenbach section, with the mechanics on the pit apron nervously preparing for the eventuality of an unscheduled stop well in advance of the cars reappearing. The tannoy barks away with mostly undistinguishable sounds that can only be supposed to have been words in origin, then, with minutes to spare, the distant roar of racing engines can be heard, accelerating through the Galgenkopf and stretching their legs on the long run towards the Antoniusbuche! Who will be leading at the end of the first lap?

[as65p]

This thread really is TNF in a nutshell. Revealing, interesting, confusing, elite, spooky and nerdy all at the same time.