158 replies to this topic

[Tim Murray]

https://www.autospor...0529.1313540281

Three examples of the famous BRM V16 Grand Prix car of the early 1950s will be built to celebrate the marque's 70th anniversary of its Formula 1 debut.

The bold plan to build continuation examples of the 600bhp F1 car is the result of a partnership between restoration specialists Hall and Hall and members of the Owen family.

John Owen, now 81 and the son of period BRM principal Sir Alfred Owen, will have the first car while the other two will be sold and, under FIA rules for continuation cars, could be raced.

Britain's original Formula 1 team, British Racing Motors (BRM), is celebrating its 70th anniversary with the construction of the three examples of the Type 15 Mk1 BRM V16, considered to be among the best sounding racing cars in the sport's history.

Hall and Hall will use the complete collection of original documents, letters, cuttings and up to 20,000 original drawings that remain under BRM ownership.

Founder Rick Hall was part of the original BRM Formula 1 team in the early 1970s, and with his son, Rob, has since been providing parts and technical support for the remaining BRMs still in private hands.

The first car, which is expected to be delivered during 2021, will go to the Owen family and will fulfil a long-held ambition of John Owen to see and hear the car in action once again.

The only surviving V16 MK1 in existence is a museum piece and is too valuable to race.

The project began when three of Sir Alfred Owen's grandsons, Simon, Paul and Nick, discussed how BRM should be revived and preserved for future generations.

The discovery of several chassis numbers, which had been allocated by the BRM team in 1950 but never built due to a change in Formula 1 technical regulations, presented a unique opportunity.

BRM's V16 Grand Prix engine was a marvel of technical development when it was designed by a team headed by Peter Berthon in 1947.

As a 1500cc supercharged unit revving to 12,000rpm, it was very complex and inherent reliability issues prevented it from ever achieving its full potential.

The V16 was used by the works team from 1950 onwards and showed flashes of great potential, particularly when driven by Juan Manuel Fangio. But reliability thwarted an engine that, when running cleanly, makes a truly incredible noise.

(with thanks to thiscocks who first posted the news here in the Technical Forum.)

[jcbc3]

money grab much?

 

It's a rich mans game/world and they can do anything they like with it for all I care. I just fail to see the attraction of it.

[ensign14]

You can get a simulacrum of an iconic GP car, and see and hear it racing in anger, without risking the original article itself.

 

It's the paradox of historic racing.  Had I something like a 250GTO, I'd be happy enough with it in historic events, but just for exercise, I would not be going all out to win.  Let the supertuned A40s fight that out.

[Lee Nicolle]

It seems anything out of the box from the UK is becoming a continuation. 

With 70 years and modern technology the thing may run properly,, though maybe not.

With 16 93.75cc cylinders to me will never make sense. It has 10 more cylinders than it needs, probably 12!

[Tom Glowacki]

They will be good company for the continuation Vanwalls:

 

https://vintageracec...ls-to-be-built/

 

https://www.vanwallgroup.com/

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 04 November 2020 - 12:39.

[Risil]

What's the difference between a continuation and a replica? Branding?

 

In any case, even a replica of the BRM V16 is the kind of thing that would get me to go to a historics meeting. And I say that as someone who hasn't been to many!

[Sterzo]

A part of me wants to shout "fake,"  keep them away. We just know that these "continuation" (vomit-worthy expression) cars will be way faster than the originals. Eventually historic racing will lose all the original cars; it's already happening but will reach its logical conclusion one day.

 

Another part of me thinks: bow to the inevitable. Racing cars don't last if parked in a garage, they rot away; they don't last if they're used as they wear out and are wrecked. Maybe the only way to see front-engined GP cars racing in fifty years time will be to watch replicas anyway.

 

Perhaps this statement is the ultimate in old-fogeyism, but here goes: the great days of vintage and historic racing are behind us. It will never be as good again.

[D-Type]

It's a difficult question.  "They say" that the Maserati 250F "relpicars" produced by Cameron Millar have more genuine parts than many "genuine" cars that are currently raced in historics - but not a genuine chassis plate.  Then there are stories of well-heeled historic racers having a replica made and keeping the genuine car at home in a climate-controlled gaarage.
But what of the owner of a genuine car, whether original or heavily restored to original spec, even restored from a proverbial "barn find"?  How does he feel after spending more than it would cost to clone thecar and he id blown ito the weeds by highly-developed cars or replicars?

Is it true that some ERAs now incorporate carbon fibre components?

Edited by D-Type, 04 November 2020 - 18:55.

[rl1856]

What's the difference between a continuation and a replica? Branding?

 

 

 

Money.   

 

No money and its a fake.  Modest money and its a replica.   Lots of money and its a continuation.  Even better if you can get someone tangentially associated with the real car to sign off on the project (in exchange for some of that MONEY).   

 

Nouveau wealth gets prickly when their purchases are questioned- hence the trend of using semantic distinctions to separate their purchases from what the hoi polloi can buy.    

 

As a practical matter, anything beyond a sedate exhibition run is too much risk for a 60-70yr old mechanical object of high value.  Condition of moving and stressed parts would or should give one pause before hurtling into a tight corner with smoke pouring from the brakes, suspension parts at full load, and another equally valuable object just a few inches away.

 

Racing of replicas as a way to enjoy a simulation of the real thing is a rational alternative.  Just don't try to convince anyone what they are seeing is the "real thing".  Because it isn't and never will be.

 

As for the V16, it would not surprise me at all if the replicas are proven to be both more reliable and faster than the originals. Much has been learned in 70yrs, and H&H are probably the best at this specialized art.   

Edited by rl1856, 04 November 2020 - 14:45.

[68targa]

It seems that because three chassis numbers that were never used in 1950 means that these continuation cars are the 'real thing' (according to the Owen family).  All parts will be new so when I go to Goodwood in 2022 and see one of these sitting next to a '2021' Vanwall I will think to myself that these are very nice and no doubt beautifully crafted but I will know that Moss, Fangio, Gonzales and Wharton never set eyes on them.  Does it matter? 

 

Whatever way you look at it these are not original and are just copies with no history at all.  I feel the same about continuation, copies, replicas of Daytona Cobras,  Jag D's, C-types - the list is endless. So long as they are clearly identified as such then no harm is done but that is not always the case.

 

If Hall & Hall find it a challenge to build up these 3 cars it is nothing compared to what B.R.M. did in 1950, even though they did not succeed as intended it was a remarkable engineering excercise at that time.

 

ps.  if we can get a replica Bugatti 251, a few continuation Gordinis and maybe a copy of an HWM or two then we could hold a 'continuation' 1950's GP

[ensign14]

ps.  if we can get a replica Bugatti 251, a few continuation Gordinis and maybe a copy of an HWM or two then we could hold a 'continuation' 1950's GP

Hamilton would still win.

[barrykm]

Great news I say, I just hope it happens. 

 

It would be worth travelling some way to see, and more particularly to hear one of these replicas in action, which I'm sure that even the critics of replicas would enjoy.

Edited by barrykm, 04 November 2020 - 16:02.

[sabrejet]

Isn't this story several years old? I'm sure Hall & Hall had one of these recreations at Revival in (2015?) Anyone?

[MartLgn]

The old unused chassis numbers caper   I hear Ferrari have remembered that Enzo planned to build 50 GTO's and left 50 lines free in the book

[Rob Ryder]

Hamilton would still win.

 

Duncan was good, but the continuation version may not be.....

[ensign14]

Duncan was good, but the continuation version may not be.....

I think Adrian counts as a replica.

[rl1856]

It seems that because three chassis numbers that were never used in 1950 means that these continuation cars are the 'real thing' (according to the Owen family).  All parts will be new so when I go to Goodwood in 2022 and see one of these sitting next to a '2021' Vanwall I will think to myself that these are very nice and no doubt beautifully crafted but I will know that Moss, Fangio, Gonzales and Wharton never set eyes on them.  Does it matter? 

 

 

 

Tony Brooks is still with us.  I wonder if he will be invited to lend an endorsement ?

[PayasYouRace]

I love the idea. For those of us who never got to see the original, it’s ideal.

I don’t see a problem with replicas, or continuations or whatever you want to call them. As long as the builder is honest about it. I’d only consider it a fake if the builder claimed it was part of the original run. Same goes for the Vanwalls. The only Vanwall I’ve ever seen running is my Scalextric one.

[sabrejet]

So are these related to the recreation that was at Revival? I guess we need DCN to advise.

[Doug Nye]

I hear that DCN is keeping out of this.

 

CND

[john aston]

I cant say I'm losing any sleep. If I get to hear one more frequently in the future that'd be a good thing  , far better than the privilege I currently enjoy of not hearing the real thing. It has more appeal than the silly James Bond DB5 Aston Martin are churning out for oligarchs and kleptocrats to show off to their implausibly young girlfriends . A gazillion quid for a full size kid's toy you can neither  drive on the road nor race. 

[F1matt]

I cant say I'm losing any sleep. If I get to hear one more frequently in the future that'd be a good thing  , far better than the privilege I currently enjoy of not hearing the real thing. It has more appeal than the silly James Bond DB5 Aston Martin are churning out for oligarchs and kleptocrats to show off to their implausibly young girlfriends . A gazillion quid for a full size kid's toy you can neither  drive on the road nor race. 

is there any difference? They are all satisfying someone’s ego without the hassle of running an original (unreliable) machine. No different to a Rolex copy that people buy in Turkey. 

[Stephen W]

You can get a simulacrum of an iconic GP car, and see and hear it racing in anger, without risking the original article itself.

 

It's the paradox of historic racing.  Had I something like a 250GTO, I'd be happy enough with it in historic events, but just for exercise, I would not be going all out to win.  Let the supertuned A40s fight that out.

 

An acquaintance of mine has a Ferrari 250GT SWB and also a replica which was built from another less popular model of the Italian stallion. The Replica is now his competition car whilst the genuine article is used for day trips etc.

 

I can understand why he did it and you have to inspect the vehicle to see the slight differences between the replica and the real deal. The BRMs are another thing altogether. All I would say is "caveat emptor".

Edited by Stephen W, 05 November 2020 - 09:11.

[Roger Clark]

We are fortunate that the lives and fates of the V16s are well documented in a well known book.

[Derwent Motorsport]

If you take any of the ERAs that were built in the 30s, how much of them is original? Modified parts, improved when still racing in the 50s, replaced etc. Possibly Romulus is the only original car.  Andy are there not going to be some ERAs built as well? 

There is (or was) was a running original Vanwall, it raced at the Silverstone Classic in about 1990 with John Harper driving, was it Indian owned?  It mixed it with the red cars at the front and got big cheers when it moved up the leader board. I don't think it won but it was a memorable race. 

[Myhinpaa]

Hope it will mean we can hear one on full song a bit more frequently, I might even consider going to Goodwood again for that....

 

This was exactly what happened because of George Beale's Honda RC174 ("Six") replicas, sanctioned by Honda, who even bought one themselves.

Without those 8 replicas we would probably never been able to see or hear one again ever. https://www.georgebe...rcycle-replicas

 

Quite some feat it was too : https://www.motorcyc...c174-rc-reborn/

 

Well worth it if it means we can hear the BRM V16 on full song again, Nick Mason's example always seemed to be plagued with some form of misfire(?)

Here's the sound recording from his "Into The Red" project : https://youtu.be/rRNoRlLlsD8?t=121

 

Ulsterman Ralph Bryans works Honda "Six" however ran perfectly sweet during the '67 Lightweight TT 250 race : https://youtu.be/jNew83i4XOY?t=133*

Without the replicas from Beale it is very unlikely a RC174 would have been run in anger ever again, so with that in mind I'm in favour of the BRM V16 continuation project. 

 

But not without some level of apprehension though...

 

*(The commentator wrongly claims the rider @ 2:40 is Bill Ivy, it's in fact Hailwood on another "Six". Unlike Bryans he's already in 7th and going at full chat!

Edited by Myhinpaa, 07 November 2020 - 10:29.

[Red Socks]

Tony Brooks is still with us.  I wonder if he will be invited to lend an endorsement ?

At that point cloning should be no problem-drivers to suit the cars- gosh we could have complete races of  single clone  drivers/cars.

Truly heaven on earth.

[Arjan de Roos]

We are fortunate that the lives and fates of the V16s are well documented in a well known book.

One book? Three actually and there seems to be a continuation.

And Karl wrote a Piccolo.

And there is a "In Camera" book. 

All replicas I have shelved...hehe

;-)

[GreenMachine]

Well, the up-side is that we can now start getting excited about the forthcoming Volume 5 of a certain marque history ...

 

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Never mind, I'll get my hat and coat, and see myself out 

[ensign14]

Here's hoping for a continuation P207 then.

[BRG]

There does seem to be a bit of a mania for continuations & replicas at the moment.  A glance at the current Motor Sport shows an article on buying a second hand Lynx D-Type if you can't afford the real thing (who can?) or getting a new one as production is resuming, whilst alternatives such as a continuation Shelby Daytona Coupe, and recreation of the Cobra, Stratos and Porsche 917 are suggested.  Then there is news of continuation Allard JRs and of course the Vanwall replicuation.  We have continuation XKSS, E-types, Astons,and Knobbly Listers.  There is clearly a market for such things!  

 

I don't mind very much as long as people are honest about the provenance of these vehicles.  If it means we see and hear a car that was otherwise consigned to history, then so much the better.  For example, Mr Pittaway's FIAT S76 was a cause of some comment, but it is a wondrous thing to behold and surely worth it just for that?

 

Until some low-life tries to pass off a replica as the real thing claiming that it uses the original door handles.

[Darren Galpin]

I personally dislike the term continuation models, because they are not - even if it is made to the exact same measurements to the micron, the materials can't be and won't be the same, because casting processes have improved, material understanding has been improved, and no-one would go back and cast an engine block say to the standards of yesteryear. I'd prefer they were just more honest and called it a replica. If people want to have replicas and show them, then great, no problem, but continuation implies that it is the same thing. It is not......

[Red Socks]

There does seem to be a bit of a mania for continuations & replicas at the moment. A glance at the current Motor Sport shows an article on buying a second hand Lynx D-Type if you can't afford the real thing (who can?) or getting a new one as production is resuming, whilst alternatives such as a continuation Shelby Daytona Coupe, and recreation of the Cobra, Stratos and Porsche 917 are suggested. Then there is news of continuation Allard JRs and of course the Vanwall replicuation. We have continuation XKSS, E-types, Astons,and Knobbly Listers. There is clearly a market for such things!

I don't mind very much as long as people are honest about the provenance of these vehicles. If it means we see and hear a car that was otherwise consigned to history, then so much the better. For example, Mr Pittaway's FIAT S76 was a cause of some comment, but it is a wondrous thing to behold and surely worth it just for that?

Until some low-life tries to pass off a replica as the real thing claiming that it uses the original door handles.

What a relief to be confident - in the light of the repeated assertions by its management that we will never have this trash imposed on us at Goodwood in the light of its total blanket no replica policy.

[sabrejet]

So apart from speculation and opinion, does anyone know if these are related to the 'Revival' car? Just wanted without prejudice to know. 

[68targa]

What a relief to be confident - in the light of the repeated assertions by its management that we will never have this trash imposed on us at Goodwood in the light of its total blanket no replica policy.

The Goodwood FoS seems to attract original cars, with one or two exceptions (Chris Rea's Sharknose Ferrari and a Lancia-Ferrari D50 spring to mind). Surely because there is no pressure of racing them.  However the Revival has become something of a win at all costs type of event. As excellent as it is there is just too much cut and thrust. I'm not even sure that the owner of a replica/continuation B.R.M./Vanwall would even want to complete since the cost of these is likely to be six figures plus anyway   I do remember Colin Crabbe racing his newly restored Mercedes W125  back in the 1970s.  Now can you imagine that today?

 

 

 

[Tom Glowacki]

I personally dislike the term continuation models, because they are not - even if it is made to the exact same measurements to the micron, the materials can't be and won't be the same, because casting processes have improved, material understanding has been improved, and no-one would go back and cast an engine block say to the standards of yesteryear. I'd prefer they were just more honest and called it a replica. If people want to have replicas and show them, then great, no problem, but continuation implies that it is the same thing. It is not......

Just to play with you, Darren.  I was reading about the F-15X that the USAF is about to procure.  The article described how McDonnell-Douglas built the early F-15A, B, and C in the early to mid-1970s, including workers using hand drills.  By contrast, Boeing, which  has long since swallowed up McD-D, builds them today with computer guided, laser cutting and drilling, and bonding processes on up-date alloy components, some of which have been re-designed in light of experience.

 

So, is the 2020 F-15X a continuation, or a replica, of the 1975 F-15A?  As my law school exam questions used to say, "Decide and discuss".

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 05 November 2020 - 21:37.

[nca]

I personally dislike the term continuation models, because they are not - even if it is made to the exact same measurements to the micron, the materials can't be and won't be the same, because casting processes have improved, material understanding has been improved, and no-one would go back and cast an engine block say to the standards of yesteryear. I'd prefer they were just more honest and called it a replica. If people want to have replicas and show them, then great, no problem, but continuation implies that it is the same thing. It is not......

 

When I visited the Jaguar Land Rover Classic facility in May '19, I asked the question regarding material specifications while watching a mechanic building a new D type.

The tour guide, an old Jaguar man of many years, was adamant that they were using original material specifications in the vast majority of components.

The exceptions were mainly in plastic / rubber materials where modern materials were vastly superior to their equivalents in period.

The guide stressed that where exceptions were made, the performance of the vehicle was not enhanced, but newer material would function satisfactorily for much longer than the old.

 

Where the new car is built by the original manufacture, or in Jaguar's case the Corporate Descendent, I have no problem with the term Continuation, but where the builder is a completely new and separate company Repllca is, for me, the appropriate name. Having said that, were not Frazer-Nash not the first company to build Replicas? 

 

nca

[Darren Galpin]

Ah, but in that case it is the same as the Ford Escort, we just have a Mark 1, Mark 2 etc etc. The difference is that with today's technology, we would be building the car to a specification it never could be in period, hence it isn't a continuation, it's a replica.

[RA Historian]

 

 

I don't mind very much as long as people are honest about the provenance of these vehicles. ----Until some low-life tries to pass off a replica as the real thing claiming that it uses the original door handles.

Ah, and therein lies the rub!  I think that we are all of the same mind to agree with the first part of BRG's statement, but we all know that the second half is also true. It is inevitable, as it has happened time and time before, that somewhere along the line someone will claim that the replica, or whatever you wish to call it, is original and the real thing. Greed seems to always rear its ugly head---

 

Tom

[Bikr7549]

Just to play with you, Darren. I was reading about the F-15X that the USAF is about to procure. The article described how McDonnell-Douglas built the early F-15A, B, and C in the early to mid-1970s, including workers using hand drills. By contrast, Boeing, which has long since swallowed up McD-D, builds them today with computer guided, laser cutting and drilling, and bonding processes on up-date alloy components, some of which have been re-designed in light of experience.

So, is the 2020 F-15X a continuation, or a replica, of the 1975 F-15A? As my law school exam questions used to say, "Decide and discuss">

Unfortunately I need to interject a new word into this discussion.

The new F-15 is a 'continuED' machine. It's being made in the same facility as it was when production started in 1972, at least some of the people who were there working on it in the 80's are still there and the management entity (despite the Boeing take over) is a direct decedent of the original MD. Yes, its not the same airplane anymore, but it has been in production non-stop since its intro, thanks to many of our allies, and the new one is still an F-15.

The VW Beetle, Ford T and Peugot 404 were all in production for decades, and those at the end of the line were all continuED versions of the first, despite many changes made along the line.

How about the Lola and Chevron cars being made today? Probably in the same facilities, some of the same people, original drawings, maybe even tooling. Just that they are made today and not 40 years ago.

The BRM? Most likely the original drawings will be used, but materials will be modern 'equivalents', with naturally updated properties. Does the original BRM facility still exist in some form? Better machining, better electrical components, tweaks to clearances and fit of the parts. And most importantly, a far better understanding of how the machines are supposed to work - the original was at the forefront of technology and they were learning as they went. If the original cars were still running and an unavailable spare part was needed it would be made as just described, using all the latest stuff.

So we have fake, copy, replica, continuation, continued. Oh yes, original as well, however you want to define that.

Personally I am just happy to see that the cars will be run. Although documents exist describing what was done when, what will still exist of that in 100 years??? We know now what is what but at some point those that know will not be here, and the cars will be.

[Sterzo]

...I do remember Colin Crabbe racing his newly restored Mercedes W125  back in the 1970s.  Now can you imagine that today?

And in the eighties, Philip Mann managed to spin the 1914 GP winning Mercedes at Woodcote, causing a great intake of breath by the massed spectators.

[Gregor Marshall]

Always worth posting and watching the first minute with the sound turned up.  One of Dad's career highlights thanks to Nick Mason:-

My 2p worth is that I have no problem with a new build (and I don't think Dad would've done either), just as long as it is known that it is a new build and that it is not raced against originals.
I'd love a new build Vauxhall Firenza to match those new build Ford Escorts and Capris out there... 

Edited by Gregor Marshall, 08 November 2020 - 14:30.

[Concreteconrods]

How many V16 BRM's  (including genuine/reconstructions/replicas etc) are currently in existence?

[sabrejet]

How many V16 BRM's  (including genuine/reconstructions/replicas etc) are currently in existence?

 

Six built in period, of which only eleven survive. 

[PayasYouRace]

I personally dislike the term continuation models, because they are not - even if it is made to the exact same measurements to the micron, the materials can't be and won't be the same, because casting processes have improved, material understanding has been improved, and no-one would go back and cast an engine block say to the standards of yesteryear. I'd prefer they were just more honest and called it a replica. If people want to have replicas and show them, then great, no problem, but continuation implies that it is the same thing. It is not......

Surely, if there had never been a break in production, the progress in manufacturing and material technology would have found its way into the model over time anyway.

[rl1856]

Interesting to bring up the F15x.    Should a distinction be made for old models in continuous production vs models that have not been made for 30-40-50yrs ?   The F15x is a development of a model still in production, or recently in production.   This is quite different from the corporate descendant of North American Aviation deciding to introduce a "Continuation" of the P51D Mustang, or if Supermarine were to introduce a "Continuation" of the Spitfire.

[BRG]

The Boeing 737 first flew in 1967 and has been in continuous production every since, until the 737 Max issue anyway.  The current model carries more passengers, uses less fuel, flies further and is quieter than the first model.  Both are 737s.  It's just that, due to modern technology, the current one is horrendously unsafe.

[PayasYouRace]

The Boeing 737 first flew in 1967 and has been in continuous production every since, until the 737 Max issue anyway.  The current model carries more passengers, uses less fuel, flies further and is quieter than the first model.  Both are 737s.  It's just that, due to modern technology, the current one is horrendously unsafe.

Not due to modern technology. Due to poor design choices stemming from trying to keep a 50 year old airframe design relevant to today. But that’s for another thread.

[Lee Nicolle]

Always worth posting and watching the first minute witht he sound turend up.  One of Dad's career highlights thanks to Nick Mason:-


My 2p worth is that I have no problem with a new build (and I don;t think Dad would've done either), just as long as it is known that it is a new build and that it is not raced against originals.
I'd love a new build Vauxhall Firenza to match those new build Ford Escorts and Capris out there... 

You do not need a new one,, just cubic dollars to make an old one go fast. Which ofcourse means throwing away anything mechanical or modifying it a LOT.

Though unlike an Escort you cannot buy a new shell.

Just take the old one to say RetroPower [on You Tube]  and they can it seem to near anything. And I am sure the cubic dollars [or for you quids] will make it fast

[AJB]

Interesting to bring up the F15x. Should a distinction be made for old models in continuous production vs models that have not been made for 30-40-50yrs ? The F15x is a development of a model still in production, or recently in production. This is quite different from the corporate descendant of North American Aviation deciding to introduce a "Continuation" of the P51D Mustang, or if Supermarine were to introduce a "Continuation" of the Spitfire.

In America they probably could. But if Supermarine (2020) Ltd built a new Spitfire it would be in the same situation as these expensive "continuation" cars which cannot be used on the road - it couldn't be used in the air!
BUT, you can dig up a crashed, rotted, 1940 Spitfire from the mud of the English Channel and "rebuild" it. A brand-new airframe is a very reasonable £250,000, and the authorities seem very relaxed about the percentage of new parts being used.