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DTM electric announced for 2023 (GT3s for 2021-22) [split]


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#1 Viryfan

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 09:59

DTM goes in 2021 full GT3 regs, Mercedes comes back.

 

DTM goes electric for 2023 with a support series as a  1000hp car, same power train, bodywork adapted in function of manufacturers.

 

https://f1-insider.c...ktro-zukunft-1/

 

https://www.touringc...set-start-2023/

 

30 minutes sprint races, way more exciting than Formula E imho if it happens.


Edited by Viryfan, 06 November 2020 - 10:02.


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#2 balage06

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:18

I was just about to create a new topic for that, but nevermind. :p



#3 Risil

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:21

Let's do it, this is big news

#4 Risil

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:23

1200 horsepower is the new 1000 horsepower.



#5 balage06

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:29

Also, a race on the Nordschleife next year

 

b5Uc8K4.jpg



#6 Risil

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:30

This feels like one of those situations where when you hit rock bottom, it can actually free you up to make good decisions.



#7 Lennat

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:48

Would "full GT3 regs" mean the extra power (600 horsepower) for DTM ain't happening?



#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:54

Wouldn't be the first time a series has taken a step back for a couple of years to ensure entries before coming back with a new formula.

 

 

 

DTM goes electric for 2023 with a support series as a  1000hp car, same power train, bodywork adapted in function of manufacturers.

 

 

 

I assume you mean there will be a support series dedicated to the DTM, but it's the DTM that will be 1000hp electric beasts.



#9 Vielleicht

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 10:54

I think this will secure DTM's long term future now. Sounds like a pretty sensible set of steps to take for the next five years.



#10 Viryfan

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:00

Wouldn't be the first time a series has taken a step back for a couple of years to ensure entries before coming back with a new formula.

 

 

 

I assume you mean there will be a support series dedicated to the DTM, but it's the DTM that will be 1000hp electric beasts.

 

my take is that dtm electric will be a support series to dtm.

 

 

 

The plan for the series is to have sprint races of 30 minutes with the possibility of automated battery changes during mandatory pit stops.


#11 noikeee

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:02

Well this is a bit random all over the place. GT3s as DTM and on the Norschleiffe... what?



#12 efuloni

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:03

This is awesome.

#13 Vielleicht

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:09

Berger: “It is our aim not only to showcase the latest technology in DTM Electric, but also to bring central innovations to the race track that allow for spectacular racing. Thus, we also want to convince the classic motorsport fans about future technologies and fascinate them with attractive racing.”

Sounds good. Nice to see an atempt to win over the 'classic fan' - the EV racing space is in need of that diversity of approach in my opinon.

 

30 minute sprint races sounds good too. If they can make autmotated battery swaps work to up the power levels... why not?

 

Launch from 2023 is pleasantly early, even as a spec/support series. Gives time to learn how to get these things working at their best and get the fans used to them before the time comes to graduate them to being the headline billing.

 

I'm hopeful.



#14 Viryfan

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:12

Sounds good. Nice to see an atempt to win over the 'classic fan' - the EV racing space is in need of that diversity of approach in my opinon.

 

30 minute sprint races sounds good too. If they can make autmotated battery swaps work to up the power levels... why not?

 

Launch from 2023 is pleasantly early, even as a spec/support series. Gives time to learn how to get these things working at their best and get the fans used to them before the time comes to graduate them to being the headline billing.

 

I'm hopeful.

 

Berger is taking the same approach as Trophée Andros in the last decade.



#15 Risil

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:13

I always said DTM needed more snow machines.



#16 Ben1445

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:22

Cool. Sounds like a good plan. 

 

And a prototype already exists no less 

 

DTMHock2020-3-2-1-696x464.jpg

(https://f1-insider.c...ktro-zukunft-1/)



#17 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 11:33

"The plan for the series is to have sprint races of 30 minutes with the possibility of automated battery changes during mandatory pit stops."

 

Sounds nice, I imagine the car will be lifted by maybe a few industrial robots that replace the pit crew. Then two more robots go below the car to remove the battery and place a fresh one.



#18 Branislav

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 12:11

DTM goes in 2021 full GT3 regs, Mercedes comes back.

 

DTM goes electric for 2023 with a support series as a  1000hp car, same power train, bodywork adapted in function of manufacturers.

 

https://f1-insider.c...ktro-zukunft-1/

 

https://www.touringc...set-start-2023/

 

30 minutes sprint races, way more exciting than Formula E imho if it happens.

And way faster!!!!

 

This is great news.

 

What did I said. Future is electric

 

And now DTM electric car may be even faster than F1 :eek:



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 12:59

 

And now DTM electric car may be even faster than F1 :eek:

 

You cannot change the laws of physics, Bran.



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#20 Lennat

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 13:11

IF they actually make the cars super powerful while not super heavy, it could be cool. Let's wait and see...



#21 juicy sushi

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 14:21

Interesting.  They seem to have finally hit on the correct direction, but we'll see if it's too little, too late, or manufacturers want to continue to do business with ITR.



#22 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 16:29

So this is like Blancpain GT Sprint without driver changes?

 

If they do/have a good media package why wouldn't lots of mfgs or at least teams running those cars sign up? If it's GT3 and a strong media market, roll up with an NSX? Or is it meant to be just a German series(ignoring previous Alfa forays).

 

Tbf BMW v Porsche vs Audi vs Merc gong show would be amazing.

 

I just hope they stop doing that manufacturer-team-orders BS. 



#23 Anja

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 16:38

Wait, I'm confused. Is the electric DTM going to be the main series or a support one? 



#24 Vielleicht

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 16:52

Wait, I'm confused. Is the electric DTM going to be the main series or a support one? 

I'm reading it as DTM Electric starting in 2023 as a support series whilst now unmodified GT3s will be the main series starting from next year.

 

There is the thick layer of assumption that DTM Electric will likely become the main series at some unspecified time in the future unless there's compelling reasons not to.



#25 ARTGP

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 17:33

Cool. Sounds like a good plan. 

 

And a prototype already exists no less 

 

DTMHock2020-3-2-1-696x464.jpg

(https://f1-insider.c...ktro-zukunft-1/)

 

 

Can't help but think of Nikola


Edited by ARTGP, 06 November 2020 - 17:34.


#26 Branislav

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 17:58

Wait, I'm confused. Is the electric DTM going to be the main series or a support one? 

I can't imagine support one to be faster than first one...



#27 Disgrace

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 18:07

This feels like one of those situations where when you hit rock bottom, it can actually free you up to make good decisions.

 

Yeah. Though it didn't necessarily have to lead to this point. A good decision, but years late.



#28 OvDrone

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 18:07

Ok, I can get behind a eDTM. Not so with the GT3 '21-'22 version.

 

But for the love of god - make the race watchable, streamable. Somewhere, anywhere.



#29 Kev00

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 18:07

So what manufacturers are running GT3 cars next year and what manufacturers will be developing Electric engines for 2023?

#30 Ben1445

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 19:18

Here's the Future of the DTM livestream from this morning

 



#31 Dolph

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 01:18

So Audi will be then in DTM. I'm a bit confused... Didn't they want to leave DTM so as not to race non-electric cars. All rules have been changed. Now they are back racing non-electric cars in DTM. I don't get it...



#32 ARTGP

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 05:14

Out of curiosity....Did SuperGT get ****ed?

 

Didn't SGT change engines and chassis for "unification" with the now dead DTM Class one cars?



#33 boomn

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 05:29

Out of curiosity....Did SuperGT get ****ed?

Didn't SGT change engines and chassis for "unification" with the now dead DTM Class one cars?

I think Super GT has been most of the way towards the proposed class one specs for years. DTM was the one dragging their feet and delaying their technical changes, esp the four cylinder engines. Super GT has been doing fine in the years since they moved to these chassis and aero specs and four cylinder engines. I think they will continue to be ok unless something changes within the Japanese market and/or racing culture

Edited by boomn, 07 November 2020 - 05:30.


#34 Pingguest

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 07:24

As the new, electric DTM will be standardized, it will be meaningless. Becoming electric will be for marketing only in stead of technical reasons.



#35 Ben1445

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 10:44

Well, 4WD many-horsepowered acceleration is quite a thing I guess... 

 

https://twitter.com/...8556790785?s=20



#36 Ben1445

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 10:50

So Audi will be then in DTM. I'm a bit confused... Didn't they want to leave DTM so as not to race non-electric cars. All rules have been changed. Now they are back racing non-electric cars in DTM. I don't get it...

DTM won't be open competition with manufacture funded teams in this new era. They will be standard GT3 cars run by customer teams. 

 

Audi weren't happy to spend tens of millions developing engines and running cars in the 'old' DTM, but are quite happy to sell an existing customer racing product to teams for them to race in this 'new' DTM. 


Edited by Ben1445, 07 November 2020 - 12:48.


#37 Ben1445

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 10:58

As the new, electric DTM will be standardized, it will be meaningless. Becoming electric will be for marketing only in stead of technical reasons.

Spec powertrains has become a pretty common way to launch all these electric series. Once launched, there's nothing stopping them opening up technical competition.  

 

Also, the main DTM will be standard GT3 so... that's not particularly technical either. 



#38 Vielleicht

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 11:58

Lucas di Grassi @LucasdiGrassi
The DTM prototype electric car proudly uses the actual MGUs I have won some races in Formula E during season 2-3 from Schaeffler



#39 BRG

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 12:36

DTM won't be open competition with manufacture funded teams in this new era. They will be standard GT3 cars run by customer teams. 

 

And therein may lie DTM's salvation.  Now anyone can field a GT3 car, no more team orders for the manufacturer, no more running last year's cars, anyone can win if they are good enough.

 

Of course the e-DTM will probably drag them back into those bad old ways but that is for the future.



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#40 Viryfan

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 12:44

Seems like DTM gt3 stance is appreciated by tv broadcasters.

#41 Pingguest

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 13:30

Spec powertrains has become a pretty common way to launch all these electric series. Once launched, there's nothing stopping them opening up technical competition.  

 

Also, the main DTM will be standard GT3 so... that's not particularly technical either. 

 

I did never say that any standardized series contributes to something (potentially) relevant. Having said that, if motor sports is to embrace electric drive, it should not only be done for marketing purposes only.



#42 uzsjgb

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 11:19

I was somewhat confused about what was going on and tried to understand it. Now I know what is going on and still cannot understand it.

 

DTM in it's best times was a saloon car championship. Tourenwagen = Saloon Car. Like the BTCC nowadays. That is where they should have gone back to. Instead they wanted to do a beefed up GT3, find out that nobody wants that and reverted back to a normal GT3. But we already have two GT3 championships in Germany: the GT Masters, which is the official German GT3 championship and NLS (formerly VLN) at the Nürburgring. So, who is going to race in the DTM? Same cars, but higher costs, because the DTM races outside of Germany. Who outside of Germany will have an interest in the DTM, when we already have the GT World Challenge? Also, I think continuing with the name DTM is a very bad idea. While watching GT cars people will always be reminded of the saloon car past.

 

I fully expect this new DTM to fail. Are many teams really going to take the risk of signing up, without knowing who else will sign up? Or won't they rather sign up for the cheaper and/or more established other GT series? Why should fans also watch the DTM? Same GT3 rules, only customer teams, no difference to the other series.

 

If nobody knows how the DTM is going to work out, who is going to sign up for the support races? I assume even less teams.

 

In my opinion DTM only has two viable paths:

1. Go full electric. Make the DTM electric the real DTM.

2. Do a German BTCC.



#43 Ben1445

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 12:22

That's kind of what I think the 'DTM Electric' is fairly integral to making this work.

 

The GT3 plan is a good way to keep going short term but it is a compromise position and puts them on the back foot. It's directly competing with pre-existing German GT3 based championships and given up a piece of the touring car heritage. 

 

DTM Electric is giving the future direction, it's just not ready to take over as the full DTM yet. It gives teams and manufacturers/investors a reason to stick with the GT3 DTM until they can deliver something unique and distinct which works for the future. Without it, the GT3 plan might fall flat and/or struggle to compete within an already highly saturated GT3 scene. 

 

Hopefully ITR can carry through an appreciation for the value of the privateer/customer teams into Electric DTM because they might be about to carry them trough an otherwise really tough time for the organisation. 



#44 Kev00

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 12:56

I was somewhat confused about what was going on and tried to understand it. Now I know what is going on and still cannot understand it.

DTM in it's best times was a saloon car championship. Tourenwagen = Saloon Car. Like the BTCC nowadays. That is where they should have gone back to. Instead they wanted to do a beefed up GT3, find out that nobody wants that and reverted back to a normal GT3. But we already have two GT3 championships in Germany: the GT Masters, which is the official German GT3 championship and NLS (formerly VLN) at the Nürburgring. So, who is going to race in the DTM? Same cars, but higher costs, because the DTM races outside of Germany. Who outside of Germany will have an interest in the DTM, when we already have the GT World Challenge? Also, I think continuing with the name DTM is a very bad idea. While watching GT cars people will always be reminded of the saloon car past.

I fully expect this new DTM to fail. Are many teams really going to take the risk of signing up, without knowing who else will sign up? Or won't they rather sign up for the cheaper and/or more established other GT series? Why should fans also watch the DTM? Same GT3 rules, only customer teams, no difference to the other series.

If nobody knows how the DTM is going to work out, who is going to sign up for the support races? I assume even less teams.

In my opinion DTM only has two viable paths:
1. Go full electric. Make the DTM electric the real DTM.
2. Do a German BTCC.


I think as a GT series it will be pretty unique as it should be single drivers in sprint races. Doing a German BTCC would basically be an amateur series and there wouldn’t really be much interest in that. I’m intrigued to see what kind of cars and drivers we get next year. Will the get the likes of Marciello and Engel be in a Mercedes? Will we see Audi bring in the likes of Van der Linde and Vanthoor who are more used to GT3’s than the likes of Green and Rockenfeller. I don’t know what championships the manufacturers will prioritise.

#45 AlexPrime

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 13:49

Brilliant



#46 BRG

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 17:14

Doing a German BTCC would basically be an amateur series and there wouldn’t really be much interest in that

It works in the UK.  FTA TV coverage and the largest crowds trackside outside the GP and Goodwood Revival.  Why shouldn't it work in Germany?  There are BMWs, Audis, VWs and Mercedes in the BTCC so the German crowd would have something to cheer for, even if they don't recognise the other cars.  And if by amatuer, you mean, not dominated and controlled by a few big manufacturers, why is that a bad thing?  The BTCC is thriving, even in these difficult times,and the DTM is dying. Go figure.



#47 r4mses

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 17:18

"The plan for the series is to have sprint races of 30 minutes with the possibility of automated battery changes during mandatory pit stops."

 

Sounds nice, I imagine the car will be lifted by maybe a few industrial robots that replace the pit crew. Then two more robots go below the car to remove the battery and place a fresh one.

 

You know this video? 



#48 TennisUK

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 17:49

The GT3 option was the only viable option. It keeps Audi and BMW involved - even if not quite in the same way as before. It means the top line drivers will still be involved. The likes of Mercedes, Porsche, Nissan, Honda and Toyota already have eligible cars and now have a cheap way in. The cars are cool (and there will still be mainstream manufacturers involved). The DTM was always a step above the BTCC (except, arguably 97-98 when the STW probably wasn’t quite as strong) which is largely an amateur series these days. I really don’t think the DTM see much point is emulating that.

The big losers here will be the other GT3 series in Germany. Running DTM with its TV deal will bring a far bigger RoI than the other series.

Then in a 3/4 years time they can switch to electric. Personally a spec platform with silhouettes would hold zero interest whatsoever but let’s see where we are.

#49 statman

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Posted 09 November 2020 - 09:53

German Speedweek has polled the fans and....it didn't go down well for the most part:

 

https://www.speedwee...-Sargnagel.html

 

(transl. )

 

“Certainly a great experience for drivers. It becomes completely uninteresting for viewers. As many have noted here, the majority come to these races for the sound. If that is no longer the case, I can also go to a drone competition ... »

Edited by statman, 09 November 2020 - 09:54.


#50 Ben1445

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Posted 09 November 2020 - 10:20

DTM has a particularly hard job in that they now want to actively convince large parts of their existing, traditional motorsports fan base that electric is cool and exciting. And the truth is they will not convince everyone. It's fairly likely, even, that they might not even convince enough to survive on the existing fanbase alone (which is already not the strongest). 

 

I'm not going to say that these fans opinions do not matter and they should 'get with the program' because that's not true. A lot of traditional motorsport/DTM fans do not feel an emotional connection or have an interest in electric racing. How do they now start to provide that? Is it really just about the sound? Will that connection come with top drivers/team taking part? Is all this just the fiercely and inescapably political problem of our time? 

 

Like it or not, I think they need to be clever on how they market this.