97 replies to this topic

[NixxxoN]

What did BE do to stop those dominations?

Only himself knows exactly all the details, those are "inside jobs" and not public information.... but the bottom line and fact is, the dominations did stop

Edited by NixxxoN, 13 November 2020 - 11:14.

[Clatter]

Only himself knows exactly all the details, those are "inside jobs" and not public information.... but the bottom line and fact is, the dominations did stop

 

I know they stopped, but I'm not sure who should actually get the credit for making the changes that ended them.

[NixxxoN]

I know they stopped, but I'm not sure who should actually get the credit for making the changes that ended them.

Who else then? He was the F1 supremo, the one who moved the strings.

Probably he had technical advisors and stuff, but ultimately the "excecuter" was him.

 

In the last domination stopping, there were both aero and engince changes that did not suit Red Bull at all, for example.

Where is the techical reg change to stop Merc? I haven't seen any so far in 7 years. Good job LM!

Edited by NixxxoN, 13 November 2020 - 11:24.

[Clatter]

Who else then? He was the F1 supremo, the one who moved the strings.

Probably he had technical advisors and stuff, but ultimately the "excecuter" was him.

 

In the last domination stopping, there were both aero and engince changes that did not suit Red Bull at all, for example.

Where is the techical reg change to stop Merc? I haven't seen any so far in 7 years. Good job LM!

 

FIA?

[F1matt]

TV ratings are up, Social Media is thriving, Netflix boosted it too, it's quite evident unless you live under a rock.

BS about Bernie: what has he done to stop Mercedes? they only really stopped Ferrari after 6 years too. The myth of Bernie being powerful needs to stop, he is the one who made the teams too powerful in the first place, and now Liberty has to live with his failures of the last 15 years (of his otherwise succesful time).

The only thing Liberty has done really bad is the streaming offer. But that's still better than what Bernie ever managed. The Saudi deal is the next one, but again nothing Bernie wouldnt have done either.

 

 

If you discount Liberty's figures and look at other figures that are available on the net then F1 figures are declining YOY, hardly surprising moving the sport behind a pay wall. Liberty have increased the sports social media presence but I am not sure if that helps the end result, does that mean people will part with their money to watch the sport or do they just watch the 30 second free clip and press like? As Bernie said it is better to aim the sport at people who can afford to buy the Rolex, not just look at the advert. (sic)

[NixxxoN]

FIA?

Probably yes too, but in the end FIA doesn't own or manage F1.

[Rodaknee]

Having to endure all of the hideous national anthems?

That started under Bernie.  Probably when he was brown nosing Putin.

[Imperial]

That started under Bernie. Probably when he was brown nosing Putin.

It did start in Russia but was restricted to it. I'm fairly sure it was only standardised under Liberty.

[pdac]

Oh please. Have you all been following F1 for years and not understood the separation of duties and responsibilities??

 

Liberty own the commercial rights It is Liberty's job to bring the money in. They seem to be doing fine with that. Even in this pandemic, they've managed to get a little bit of cash.

 

The FIA are responsibly for the sporting aspects - like the fact that Mercedes are dominating. Sure Liberty, as the commercial rights holder will have great sway with the FIA, but if the money is rolling in and they can project it to do so into the future, then it's not of too much concern to them if Mercedes are beating the pants off of everyone else.

[Rodaknee]

Oh please. Have you all been following F1 for years and not understood the separation of duties and responsibilities??

 

Liberty own the commercial rights It is Liberty's job to bring the money in. They seem to be doing fine with that. Even in this pandemic, they've managed to get a little bit of cash.

 

The FIA are responsibly for the sporting aspects - like the fact that Mercedes are dominating. Sure Liberty, as the commercial rights holder will have great sway with the FIA, but if the money is rolling in and they can project it to do so into the future, then it's not of too much concern to them if Mercedes are beating the pants off of everyone else.

 

Ross Brawn heads a group (Pat Symonds, Rob Smedley and Jason Somerville) who he claims are looking at changing the rules to make F1 more competitive.  When Brawn's 3/4/6/8 year plan is complete, he will take his ideas to the FIA who will implement them.  F1 & the FIA work hand in glove.

[NixxxoN]

It was discussed some years ago that they could ban the split turbo design (Mercedes were the only ones to made it work well, and it gave them benefits) and that could have hurt them a lot, thus probably ending their domination. That could have been done, lets say a couple of years after 2014, to give some margin...

 

Obviously didn't happen

Edited by NixxxoN, 13 November 2020 - 12:59.

[Rodaknee]

It was discussed some years ago that they could ban the split turbo design (Mercedes were the only ones to made it work well, and it gave them benefits) and that could have hurt them a lot, thus probably ending their domination. That could have been done, lets say a couple of years after 2014, to give some margin...

 

Obviously didn't happen

That's Luddite thinking.  I assume the 'discussion' took part in a forum.  Did they vote on it too?

[Fastcake]

What Liberty have actually done is turn a sport whose management were solely focused on extracting profit with no plan for the future, into something approaching a normal business that seeks to market and grow itself, with secure management and long term aims that tries to keep itself going beyond the next few years.

Some of the changes under new management have not been popular, but there’s at least been a plan behind them beyond making Bernie’s wallet thicker.

[Sterzo]

Ross Brawn heads a group (Pat Symonds, Rob Smedley and Jason Somerville) who he claims are looking at changing the rules to make F1 more competitive.  When Brawn's 3/4/6/8 year plan is complete, he will take his ideas to the FIA who will implement them.  F1 & the FIA work hand in glove.

Correct, but pdac is also correct that the sporting and technical rules are squarely the FIA's responsibility.

 

What have Liberty done for F1? They have:

1. Invested in research to help the FIA prepare new rules aimed at improving overtaking.
2. Appointed people with real experience to consider new ideas.
3. Subsidised the teams in a period of unprecedented crisis.
4. Achieved the massive task of organising an F1 season out of a shredded calendar.
5. Worked with the FIA to introduce the first cost cap.
6. Focused on negotiating more realistic contracts with circuits.
7. Taken the first (wobbly) steps to an on-line presence.

I wish there were no owner of F1 and no commercial rights. But there are both, and that's the work of Ecclestone and Mosley, not Liberty. We're going to have a profit-seeking owner whether we like it or not, Unlike Ecclestone, Liberty are seeking sustainability, not screwing the maximum out of it.

 

To those who slag off the various Liberty managers: I'm sure some criticism is due, but where are the examples of all these detrimental changes Ross Brawn has allegedly made to F1?

Has everyone forgotten Liberty was tied into existing contracts until this year?

Has no-one noticed Covid-19 affecting when changes could be made?

Does no-one understand revolutionising a sport full of vested interests cannot be done overnight?

Would anyone prefer to see CVC back?

[masa90]

Liberty are taking a huge gamble here if they bought it just for a quick buck. The whole sport is losing interest all over seemingly. And loads of teams are on the brink of destruction or them leaving completely.

Under their direction I feel more distant to the whole sport than I have ever been. And seeing them just make more and more obvious mistakes makes me worry for the whole sport.

[Clatter]

Probably yes too, but in the end FIA doesn't own or manage F1.

 

Liberty have the commercial rights, FIA are supposed to control the rules.

Edited by Clatter, 13 November 2020 - 13:35.

[aportinga]

Having to endure all of the hideous national anthems?

 

LOL having lived through the Schumi era I have too say everytime I hear the German anthem I automatically kickstart the Italian anthem right at the end - never fails!

[NixxxoN]

That's Luddite thinking.  I assume the 'discussion' took part in a forum.  Did they vote on it too?

Luddite, you mean technophobe?
Many innovative tech has been banned in the past for the good of F1 - For example the Brabham fan car or the Williams active suspension, and so on.

And yes IIRC it was discussed here, no voting

Edited by NixxxoN, 13 November 2020 - 14:40.

[loki]

Other than the removal of the grid girls, what has Liberty bought to F1?

They stopped paying them.  They didn’t forbid them.  Any promoter or sponsor that wants to use the same sorts of models is free to pay them and do the same.  The fact only a few have indicates they don’t find it to be worthy of paying for.

 

If someone is surprised by the appearance of the second in command of the person that controls F1 it shows more ignorance and/or naivety of how multi billion dollar public companies operate.  The value of the company, that is the product, is the stock.  The racing is a means to that end.  It’s the same with all public companies.  A cursory bit of research into FWONK will yield much more reliable information than a Brit ex-pat blogger living in France.

[FLB]

 

If someone is surprised by the appearance of the second in command of the person that controls F1 it shows more ignorance and/or naivety of how multi billion dollar public companies operate.  The value of the company, that is the product, is the stock.  The racing is a means to that end.  It’s the same with all public companies.  A cursory bit of research into FWONK will yield much more reliable information than a Brit ex-pat blogger living in France.

A lot of people should read on what Jack Welch did for GE:

 

https://fortune.com/...h-ge-ceo-death/

 

 

 

Success did not consist of making the company bigger; success wasmaking the company more valuable. You didn’t get there by hiring strategists at headquarters to tell operating chiefs what to do, or by adopting new procedures for everyone to follow, or by holding more meetings or adding more layers of management, all of which had happened in the decade before Welch took over. You got there by freeing managers to create value.

That to me is why Maffei is getting involved. They can't free it up. Too many stakeholders with varying and vested interests.

Edited by FLB, 13 November 2020 - 19:25.

[Afterburner]

I think this is all a front and F1 is planning to buy Bernie Ecclestone.

[boomn]

I think this is all a front and F1 is planning to buy Bernie Ecclestone.

Haha!  Someone could have made a lot of money if they had bought the TV rights to Bernie

[ARTGP]

A ten minute delay to the race start, so that TV companies can throw a few more ads in.

So THAT’s was that’s about? Lol. I knew something was off all year. Why are these races starting 10-15 minutes after the hour. drives me insane.

Edited by ARTGP, 14 November 2020 - 07:01.

[slackster]

https://www.forbes.c...sh=679e743e5a66

 

"Formula One has revealed that it lost 19.2 million viewers worldwide last year as it began a new contract in Britain which sees Pay TV network Sky Sports exclusively broadcasting all but one of the races live.

F1’s audience reversed by 3.9% to 471 million last year meaning that it has lost a staggering 129 million viewers since 2008 driven by a move towards Pay TV."

 

No wonder they are trying to offload it

[Rodaknee]

https://www.forbes.c...sh=679e743e5a66

 

"Formula One has revealed that it lost 19.2 million viewers worldwide last year as it began a new contract in Britain which sees Pay TV network Sky Sports exclusively broadcasting all but one of the races live.

F1’s audience reversed by 3.9% to 471 million last year meaning that it has lost a staggering 129 million viewers since 2008 driven by a move towards Pay TV."

 

No wonder they are trying to offload it

I don't usually bother with Sylt's articles, but I did read this one.  Since taking over F1, Liberty measure viewer numbers differently.  Should you watch 3 minutes of F1 over a season, you are counted as a unique viewer.  I know TV companies like/need to boost their figures, but jeez!

[Rodaknee]

So THAT’s was that’s about? Lol. I knew something was off all year. Why are these races starting 10-15 minutes after the hour. drives me insane.

Not all TV companies do a Sky with lengthy pre-race programmes, many broadcast the race in the smallest gap possible - ie start at 2pm, so now they fill the 10 minutes with ads, as they do when the cars are off on their warm up lap,  That's why Liberty have been playing with 2 races per weekend, as I doubt if all broadcasters bother with showing qualifying.

[Rodaknee]

They stopped paying them.  They didn’t forbid them.  Any promoter or sponsor that wants to use the same sorts of models is free to pay them and do the same.  The fact only a few have indicates they don’t find it to be worthy of paying for.

 

If someone is surprised by the appearance of the second in command of the person that controls F1 it shows more ignorance and/or naivety of how multi billion dollar public companies operate.  The value of the company, that is the product, is the stock.  The racing is a means to that end.  It’s the same with all public companies.  A cursory bit of research into FWONK will yield much more reliable information than a Brit ex-pat blogger living in France.

Grid girls went, but they thought it was okay for the scantily dressed cheer leaders at the US GP.  A year of grid girls never showed as much bare flesh as we saw when they carried that old fart onto the stage.  One of the most excruciating events ever seen at F1.  We must be thankful Liberty saw the error of it's ways with that crap.

 

So Joe Saward publishes rumours.  This place and most F1 sites would be dead without rumours, fake news and all round silliness, some of it barely above teenage fantasy levels at times.

[PayasYouRace]

So THAT’s was that’s about? Lol. I knew something was off all year. Why are these races starting 10-15 minutes after the hour. drives me insane.

 

They were very about about why they did it. I'm surprised you're only just finding out.

[pdac]

https://www.forbes.c...sh=679e743e5a66

 

"Formula One has revealed that it lost 19.2 million viewers worldwide last year as it began a new contract in Britain which sees Pay TV network Sky Sports exclusively broadcasting all but one of the races live.

F1’s audience reversed by 3.9% to 471 million last year meaning that it has lost a staggering 129 million viewers since 2008 driven by a move towards Pay TV."

 

No wonder they are trying to offload it

 

From my understanding (I may be wrong) the Sky contract is something that Bernie put in place, so if there is audience loss (and I've no doubt there is), it's down to Bernie.

 

Liberty have inherited the mess that Bernie made selling F1's soul in order to make himself, Mosley and a few of the TP's very rich (but, mainly, himself). He did that, but he screwed up in that he's now no longer in charge - and he's now realising that the money is no good without the being in charge bit.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 14 November 2020 - 10:09.

[Rodaknee]

From my understanding (I may be wrong) the Sky contract is something that Bernie put in place, so if there is audience loss (and I've no doubt there is), it's down to Bernie.

 

Liberty have inherited the mess that Bernie made selling F1's soul in order to make himself, Mosley and a few of the TP's very rich (but, mainly, himself). He did that, but he screwed up in that he's now no longer in charge - and he's now realising that the money is no good without the being in charge bit.

 

 

Liberty knew exactly what they were buying.  They had access to all the contracts and should have known the potential for expansion of the business.  Mosley didn't make any money from F1.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 14 November 2020 - 10:19.

[FirstnameLastname]

Did Bernie not sew up some awful contracts as leaving presents? The Sky contract being one of them. Thankfully Sky arranged something with channel 4 themselves to at least have the highlights available.

[Victor]

I am against the exhumation of Bernie Ecclestone. Please leave the carcass alone.

[pdac]

Liberty knew exactly what they were buying.  They had access to all the contracts and should have known the potential for expansion of the business.  Mosley didn't make any money from F1.

 

True, but one certainly cannot (honestly) say that it would be different if Bernie were still in charge.

[pdac]

Did Bernie not sew up some awful contracts as leaving presents? The Sky contract being one of them. Thankfully Sky arranged something with channel 4 themselves to at least have the highlights available.

 

Well, whether they are 'awful' depends on your perspective. Looking at the Sky contract from one perspective you see something that has alienated a lot of potential TV viewers. Looking at if from another perspective, it's brought billions into F1's coffers.

[FLB]

Liberty apparently declined an offer from Saudi investors to buy F1 for over $20B: https://www.bloomber...f1-motor-racing

Edited by FLB, 20 January 2023 - 17:31.

[pdac]

Liberty apparently declined an offer from Saudi investors to buy F1 for over $20B: https://www.bloomber...f1-motor-racing

 

Shame. I'd have loved to have seen this board explode if F1 became the property of a Saudi.

[ConsiderAndGo]

20 billion?!

And I thought Man Utd going for 5-7 billion was a lot. Blimey.

[Anja]

I'm not surprised, the rich ME countries think they can just buy everything. I'm just surprised that they haven't bought a team or two (or seven or eight) yet. 

[noikeee]

I'm not surprised, the rich ME countries think they can just buy everything. I'm just surprised that they haven't bought a team or two (or seven or eight) yet.

Bahrain have a chunk of McLaren.

[Anja]

Oh yeah, completely forgot about that. 

[Bloggsworth]

Simple solution, go back to simple naturally aspirated engines and manual gearboxes... That'll reduce costs.

[pdac]

Simple solution, go back to simple naturally aspirated engines and manual gearboxes... That'll reduce costs.

 

No, it'll just allow the senior people to pay themselves more money. Doing this AND reducing the cost cap will help.

Edited by pdac, 20 January 2023 - 18:57.

[pup]

Bahrain have a chunk of McLaren.

Saudis as well.

Something which I’m not terribly comfortable about.

[Widefoot2]

Saudis as well.

Something which I’m not terribly comfortable about.

Same. I'm a fan of the team, but they'll never get a penny from me for merchandise or similar. I already regret any funds of mine that flow to Saudi coffers, I'll not voluntarily add to it.

[kumo7]

If Liberty sells the Formula 1 as the business, it is a bit too short a period to take full cash from the business. Perhaps it is aiming to "bubble" the Formula 1's price, which is ultimately dangerous for us fans.

Say If Liberty sells it to Saudi, the it sells to Bahrain, I think none can buy it back from them. 

[Bloggsworth]

The latest idea to keep costs down is active aerodynamics - That'll work...

[FLB]

Saudis as well.

Something which I’m not terribly comfortable about.

 

You could also argue the Qataris have money in Audi through VAG: Shareholder Structure (volkswagenag.com)

 

Audi Now Becomes Wholly Owned by Volkswagen - The Car Guide (guideautoweb.com)

Edited by FLB, 21 January 2023 - 12:16.

[kumo7]

The latest idea to keep costs down is active aerodynamics - That'll work...

cough, cynics... 

 

I actually said at Andretti thread that Indy and F1 needs to adopt it to become a competitive World Series. 
I will not cut the cost at th F1 side, tho, obviously, while at Indy due one-make it will.