55 replies to this topic

[SB]

Surprising to most of the outsiders (including myself) , the event DO indeed take place in next weekend ( 20-22 Nov ) !

 

https://www.macau.gr...n/info/schedule

 

The premium event of the weekend will be Formula 4 races among local (Macau, Hong Kong , China) drivers due to the travel restrictions. Therefore friends in Europe or America do not need to wake up early to follow the races ( ammm , unless you are sleepless in that night) .

 

 

 

[Rodaknee]

The motorcycle races were binned a couple of weeks ago, because the riders and teams were expected to arrive in Macau 2 weeks before the event and stay under lockdown in hotels, until they were released to race.

[noikeee]

The motorcycle races should've been binned many years ago, because they are an insane risk and can easily kill riders as they've done in the past.

 

Shame we don't have the traditional international Macau F3 race, which is one of my favourite races of the year, but it's obviously impossible.

[BRG]

Ridiculous race track.  We are better off without it.

[AlexPrime]

I like it and I hope for a F4, GT and touring cars race.

[William Hunt]

The motorcycle races should've been binned many years ago, because they are an insane risk and can easily kill riders as they've done in the past.

 

Agree that it is too dangerous for motorcycles. But what should have been banned a LONG time ago is the Isle of Man TT, average around 3-4 competitors die per year, it's a slaughter. In 2011 there were 6 deaths, in 2014 5.... It causes so much pain & grief to so many families.

[AlexPrime]

Not a fan of banning... nobody is forcing people to go to Macau or the Isle of Mann.

[thiscocks]

The motorcycle races should've been binned many years ago, because they are an insane risk and can easily kill riders as they've done in the past.

 

Shame we don't have the traditional international Macau F3 race, which is one of my favourite races of the year, but it's obviously impossible.

Awww, too dangerous for you to watch? The TT also then? 

[noikeee]

Awww, too dangerous for you to watch? The TT also then?

What is this, are you calling me a softie for not being particularly keen to watch people die in live television?

I see the TT in a slightly different light than the Macau bikes race, because it's its own event with its own culture. Wanna live in the 1960s culture and get smashed at 300kph against a tree, I don't like it but be my guest, it's consensual adults taking risks they understand. But in the Macau race, it's a little different because it's a support race to the main event. Not sure it paints the main international F3 event in great light, when the commentators are like "oh and over there, that's the corner in which some random guy got his corpse cut in 3 different parts against the guardrail yesterday. Anyway, here in the fight for P4..."

[thiscocks]

What is this, are you calling me a softie for not being particularly keen to watch people die in live television?

I see the TT in a slightly different light than the Macau bikes race, because it's its own event with its own culture. Wanna live in the 1960s culture and get smashed at 300kph against a tree, I don't like it but be my guest, it's consensual adults taking risks they understand. But in the Macau race, it's a little different because it's a support race to the main event. Not sure it paints the main international F3 event in great light, when the commentators are like "oh and over there, that's the corner in which some random guy got his corpse cut in 3 different parts against the guardrail yesterday. Anyway, here in the fight for P4..."

Ok, so he's some random guy because he happens to not race in the 'main event'. Even so it still doesnt give you any right to think an event should be banned because you as a viewer think its too dangerous. You obviously dont like watching racers who have a different attitude to racing than yourself so just turn over and watch something else. Personally I have more respect for a 'random guy' who races at Macau on a bike than any current F1 driver. 

[noikeee]

Ok, so he's some random guy because he happens to not race in the 'main event'. Even so it still doesnt give you any right to think an event should be banned because you as a viewer think its too dangerous. You obviously dont like watching racers who have a different attitude to racing than yourself so just turn over and watch something else. Personally I have more respect for a 'random guy' who races at Macau on a bike than any current F1 driver.

Who pissed in your cereal this morning?

My point isn't that he's a random guy, or that his life is worth any less than an international star. If I didn't care about different levels of motorsport I wouldn't be watching Formula 3 in which I get acquainted with a lot of drivers that later move on to all kinds of different racing. My point is that it doesn't suit the culture of an international race event which isn't trying to sell itself as the ultimate daredevil experience like the TT is.

Either way sometimes standards change as time moves on, and what was deemed acceptable no longer is. All motorsport - far from being just F1 - has increased safety dramatically because it is no longer acceptable for people to be trying to cheat death at each and every corner, and this will catch up with events like the TT as well. At the very least it's... dodgy.

[thiscocks]

Who pissed in your cereal this morning?

My point isn't that he's a random guy, or that his life is worth any less than an international star. If I didn't care about different levels of motorsport I wouldn't be watching Formula 3 in which I get acquainted with a lot of drivers that later move on to all kinds of different racing. My point is that it doesn't suit the culture of an international race event which isn't trying to sell itself as the ultimate daredevil experience like the TT is.

Either way sometimes standards change as time moves on, and what was deemed acceptable no longer is. All motorsport - far from being just F1 - has increased safety dramatically because it is no longer acceptable for people to be trying to cheat death at each and every corner, and this will catch up with events like the TT as well. At the very least it's... dodgy.

You mean it is no longer acceptable to have any risk / danger / excitement in motorsport. Macau has been running bike races since the 60's and most of the great riders have won there (Schwantz / Hislop..) and have considered it a unique challenge and place to race. I guess if you have grown up just watching watered down series of motorsports and never seen bikes there before (not saying you havent) then you'll likely see them and think 'oh my god thats dangerous' when the riders who have grown up riding tracks like that think it totally normal. Saying a track should be banned because you as a viewer think its too dangerous is pretty shortsighted and disrespectfull to anyone who races there. Not least being a rather totalitarian way of thinking.

 

The TT isnt trying to sell it's self as anything other than the TT race. The fact that the worlds attitude to safety in motorsports has changed doesnt mean the TT or any other old circuits mantra has changed.  As for car racing I think it is still a good track to watch races even if a little hard to overtake but would suit an F1 race. With some rain, would be perfect.  

[thiscocks]

Ridiculous race track.  We are better off without it.

Are you speaking for the human race as a whole, or just yourself?

[thiscocks]

Agree that it is too dangerous for motorcycles. But what should have been banned a LONG time ago is the Isle of Man TT, average around 3-4 competitors die per year, it's a slaughter. In 2011 there were 6 deaths, in 2014 5.... It causes so much pain & grief to so many families.

The amount of ignorance and self importance in this post is just incredible. 

[M66R]

Is the F4 race being streamed live this weekend?

[smitten]

Agree that it is too dangerous for motorcycles. But what should have been banned a LONG time ago is the Isle of Man TT, average around 3-4 competitors die per year, it's a slaughter. In 2011 there were 6 deaths, in 2014 5.... It causes so much pain & grief to so many families.

I suspect you don't spend much time around motorcyclists, especially racers.

[SB]

Is the F4 race being streamed live this weekend?

 

I don't know. But it would be shown in TV channels like TVB (Hong Kong) , Fox Sport Asia (paid TV in Asia)

[Rodaknee]

Agree that it is too dangerous for motorcycles. But what should have been banned a LONG time ago is the Isle of Man TT, average around 3-4 competitors die per year, it's a slaughter. In 2011 there were 6 deaths, in 2014 5.... It causes so much pain & grief to so many families.

And what do you know about the Irish road racing scene and the 'tracks' they race on?

[AlexPrime]

Life is full of would be dictators. Macau or Isle of Mann are not more dangerous than climbing Everest. I am sure that certain people want that banned too. 

Truth is that motorsport in general is much safer than what it was in the 60s and 70s and few extreme races can't change that, Leave the people who want to participate in them to have the time of their life, like the surfers who climb on monstrous waves or the guys who hike in the Himalayas. For them it is incredible and if it is so bad for you, don't watch.

Edited by AlexPrime, 17 November 2020 - 15:25.

[BRG]

Are you speaking for the human race as a whole, or just yourself?

I am speaking for myself - obviously. 

 

My view is that global society - or the human race, if your prefer - is better off without the Macau race.  Because it is a crappy race circuit and provides no proper racing.  It has a permanent yellow flag zone for heaven's sake, because one of the corners is too tight to allow racing. Half the circuit is too narrow and twisty to allow racing.  And it breeds massive pile-ups which wreck expensive racing machinery for no good reason.  

[Sterzo]

...and drivers keep going back repeatedly because they love it, and many of us watch it on TV from afar because we love it.

[jonpollak]

Agree that it is too dangerous for motorcycles. But what should have been banned a LONG time ago is the Isle of Man TT, average around 3-4 competitors die per year, it's a slaughter. In 2011 there were 6 deaths, in 2014 5.... It causes so much pain & grief to so many families.

meh.
Mumsnet is two doors down on the left.

Jp

[SB]

 

 

The Facebook Memories reminding me this historic moment happened exactly in three years ago ( Nov 18 ).

 

May be we could see a few more similar incidents this year,  as we have even more local (amateur)  drivers  .

[ANF]

Same corner last year:

[SB]

There's official live stream

 

https://www.macau.gr....gov.mo/en/live

[noikeee]

That crash with GT cars was hilarious.

Repeat it with bikes and it's ****ing terrifying. Can't help but just cringe watching that.

[SB]

The track is just too wide and too large for the Formula 4 cars. They don't need to use the full width of the track for the fast corners around the 'harbour'. 

[danwellsracing]

Sigh. Macau GP is a special event, as is the TT. Yes, it is dangerous. No, riders and drivers are not forced to take part in it. If they wish to do so, let them. 

[thiscocks]

Quite a good article on Autosport about some highlights of the F3 races over the years. Quite a good extract:

 

Mike Conway:  I don't give a stuff what anyone else tells me about motor racing: Macau is the hardest race and the only one I've ever wanted to win.

[Kalmake]

He must have had a rough time in WEC getting all those wins he didn't want.

[ANF]

There's official live stream
 
https://www.macau.gr....gov.mo/en/live

It's live streamed and archived on Motorsport.tv as well:

8:25 hours from earlier today: https://www.motorspo...ix-friday/54082
Saturday: https://www.motorspo...-saturday/54087
Sunday: https://www.motorspo...ix-sunday/54091

Edited by ANF, 20 November 2020 - 19:02.

[ANF]

F4 is going to be a mess. Of the 17 drivers, two or three seem to be quicker than the rest and a couple of them seem to be very, very, very slow. And there's a 10-second spread among the rest.

[William Hunt]

Sigh. Macau GP is a special event, as is the TT. Yes, it is dangerous. No, riders and drivers are not forced to take part in it. If they wish to do so, let them. 

 

That is a riciculous argument, aka as a fallacy. 

You're using a huge falacy here. The main one you are using is called "argumentum ad populum" , a very popular false argument that people use to defened a situation that is inherently wrong (and this one is because people die).

 

'Let them die doing what they love' is another example of an "argumentum ad populum", it also ignores the grief it causes to family & friends when someones dies in the process 'doing what he loves', also he won't have any kind of life anymore if he dies so there is no positive effect because of the action

 

A fallacy is never a valid argument. They are used either to cover up a false statement of to justify something that is wrong (people dieing and lots of them).

 

To show how wrong your statement is, I can simply show that by replacing some words in your sentence.

 

"Killing people is dangerous. No people are forced to kill people or take part in it. If they wish to do so, let them"

That is a complete false statement I am making there, a very false one. You immediately can see that yet I used exactly the same argument as you did, it's called a fallacy (drogreden in Dutch).

 

I will make a counter argument:

 

'Would you agree (I am not talking about a motorsport event or any other event that is sports related) that if I want to organise an event on a yearly basis that will kill 4 to 6 people per year? Do you think that would be a fun event to participate in or watch?'

 

Most likely you would tell me: 'you are crazy, events that kill people can't be a good thing.'

 

Then I will tell you 'I'm not forcing people to participate in it but I'm sure many people will be interested because they wish to do the event'. Most likely you will still tell me I'm crazy and that what I am suggesting is completely unethical because there will be cassualties.You probably will even tell me that it's illegal to organise events that will certainly kill a number of participants.

 

Now change my sentence to 'the Isle of Mann' instead of a non-motorsport event.  And see what happens with your line of thought, you will now most likely start to defend the event and say that it has to be organised.

Why is this? Because you are a motorsports fan and that blurs your vision. In the case of a non-motorsport event you will be able to judge objectively. The fallacy argument you made, an 'argumentum ad populum' (an argument that will be popular within the motorsport world), is clearly not objective but subjective.
You are trying to defend a situation that is inherently wrong and you are doing this because you are reacting out of an emotion and then you are rationalising your emotion instead of rationalising first and then formulating your argument.

Edited by William Hunt, 20 November 2020 - 18:02.

[RobNNN]

Is this on TV or on live streaming only?

[AlexPrime]

 

Now change my sentence to 'the Isle of Mann' instead of a non-motorsport event.  And see what happens with your line of thought, you will now most likely start to defend the event and say that it has to be organised.

 

Climbing Mt Everest is not motorsport, kills more people, we allow it, because it is something incredible. 

 

BTW the slippery slope is clear for anyone to see. Macau GP is NOT as dangerous as TT, but safety crusaders want to ban both. What's next? Oval races? Rallys? Suzuka? 
Thanks, but I prefer freedom.

Edited by AlexPrime, 20 November 2020 - 18:36.

[AlexPrime]

F4 is going to be a mess. Of the 17 drivers, two or three seem to be quicker than the rest and a couple of them seem to be very, very, very slow. And there's a 10-second spread among the rest.

Where did you watch the cars?

[ANF]

Where did you watch the cars?

https://www.motorspo...ix-friday/54082

[William Hunt]

Climbing Mt Everest is not motorsport, kills more people, we allow it, because it is something incredible. 

 

BTW the slippery slope is clear for anyone to see. Macau GP is NOT as dangerous as TT, but safety crusaders want to ban both. What's next? Oval races? Rallys? Suzuka? 
Thanks, but I prefer freedom.

 

I fully agree with you that the Macao GP is not as dangerous as the TT, that is exactly why I only mentioned the Ilse of Mann TT and focussed on that race. My argumentation was not a slippery slope since I only mentioned the TT and not other races in my arguments, I did not even mention Macao.

 

You are however using a major fallacy yourself and therefor they are not valid arguments. You are changing the subject (to other races or to the Mount Everest), that is however not the subject, the subject where I talked about is specifically the Isle of Mann TT.
The fallacy you used is called 'whataboutism'. 'But whatabout....' (a popular falacy constantly used by Fox News).

 

I am not a safety crussader, like you I am a motorsport fan and I am not against a small amount of danger involved.

 

Your sentence 'I prefer freedom' is also a fallacy,

 

It is also an "argumentum ad populum", it's a false cheap settler.

It's also what they call a 'false dillema', George W. Bush  used this fallacy with his 'if you are not with us, you are against us statement'.

This is a particulary dirty and dishonest fallacey. You are using a variant and basically saying 'if you don't agree with me you are against freedom' or the variant 'if you are against the Isle of Mann you are against freedom'. A very untrue argument.

The dillema here is not choosing between a race and giving up our freedom, the dillema is choosing between a race and allowing people to do an event that will kill a number of participants in it. That is the dillema and that does not bring our freedom, which is a human right, in danger. In fact it protects a human right, the right to live. The right to kill yourself is not a human right.
And for your information: I hold a degree in law and am specialised in human rights and constitutional law (state law).

 

You are also using 'false correlation' with that statement because not beiing able to participate in the Isle of Mann TT because it is canceled does not mean that your freedom is taken away from you since there is no correlation between that race and a human right (freedom).

You are also using an 'ad hominum' with that, you suggest that I am against freedom but I am merely stating that we should not organise events that kill an average of 4 participants per year. That does not show that I would be against freedom. So you are making a personal attack on me by saying that 'ad hominum', you are claiming that you are for freedom and that I am against it, false argument.

 

Again you are doing exactly the same as the first person I originally replied to. You are reaction out of your emotion. So you feel an emotion because of my statement and you form an opinion out of that emotion and then you try to justify that opinion by rationalising it. That is exactly what Trump voters (not that I am comparing you with them in any way) are currently doing with their false accusations of voter fraud in the US. What you should do is let that emotion be what it is, look at different viewpoints at the statement then rationalise without the emotion influencing it or attaching your personal value to it, and then rationalise you argument based upon that process. You stated your argumentation using your emotion (and your hobby, watching motorsport, that triggers an emotion with you) as baseline and not using rationalising as baseline. That is why you react subjectively.

 

But the Isle of Man TT is a matter of a different order, if you look at the casualty / death rate it is plain for everyone to see that it kills a massive amount of people and people die there every year, usually around 3-4 and sometimes up to 6.

If you analise those fatalities numbers and look at the average amount of deaths per year, the facts or there but you won't be able to accept those numbers because you are allowing your emotion to influence the way you look at those facts and that clouds your judgement, hence the reason why people use fallacies to justify and rationalise their thinking:

https://en.wikipedia...urse_fatalities

Edited by William Hunt, 20 November 2020 - 20:34.

[Peat]

I like Macau. 

I got to take silly photographs like:

[William Hunt]

Rob Huff is the only driver not coming from China, Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macao participating in any of the events. He is driving an MG in the Macao Guia race.

[jonpollak]

Darryl O'Young is in the GT Cup !

Ex-Christina team mate in the Asian series !

 

Jp

[ANF]

And Charles Leong is in the F4 race.

[SB]

Darryl O'Young is in the GT Cup !

Ex-Christina team mate in the Asian series !

 

Jp

 

Although Darryl has a 'Scottish' family name, he is a 100% Hong Kong-Chinese (by race) with a Canadian passport.

[SB]

I'm pretty sure there's no Clan O'Young. You might be confusing it with Irish who like their names with 'O' at the start - but even then I don't think O'Young is a name you'll find in the Belfast phonebook.

 

According to wiki it's just the anglicization of his Chinese name - and more commonly written as Ouyang.

 

Yeah you are correct, sorry I did not have my morning coffee yet when I wrote that  . 

 

On the other hand, Darryl's family name is 歐陽 and should be commonly written as "Au-Yeung" for (Cantonese speaking) Hong Kongers while "Ou-Yang" would be for those speaking mandarin.

[danwellsracing]

I like how you think I'm acting out of emotion etc. I support the Macau GP, have raced in it 3 times including F3. If you would like to cancel events where people are at risk, where would you like to draw the line? How many deaths is acceptable? If it is zero, then F1 is cancelled. Moto GP is cancelled. Rallying is cancelled.

So, how many people are ok to die and you be happy to watch? Who should decide this?

Society's growing aversion to risk and almost distaste for the fact that the death rate of humans is 100% is quite interesting. Living life is not the same as avoiding death. Long live the TT, Macau GP, and any other "dangerous activity" which allows the very best to show their skill and bravery.

[AlexPrime]

I fully agree with you that the Macao GP is not as dangerous as the TT, that is exactly why I only mentioned the Ilse of Mann TT and focussed on that race. My argumentation was not a slippery slope since I only mentioned the TT and not other races in my arguments, I did not even mention Macao.

 

You are however using a major fallacy yourself and therefor they are not valid arguments. You are changing the subject (to other races or to the Mount Everest), that is however not the subject, the subject where I talked about is specifically the Isle of Mann TT.
The fallacy you used is called 'whataboutism'. 'But whatabout....' (a popular falacy constantly used by Fox News).

 

I am not a safety crussader, like you I am a motorsport fan and I am not against a small amount of danger involved.

 

Your sentence 'I prefer freedom' is also a fallacy,

 

It is also an "argumentum ad populum", it's a false cheap settler.

It's also what they call a 'false dillema', George W. Bush  used this fallacy with his 'if you are not with us, you are against us statement'.

This is a particulary dirty and dishonest fallacey. You are using a variant and basically saying 'if you don't agree with me you are against freedom' or the variant 'if you are against the Isle of Mann you are against freedom'. A very untrue argument.

The dillema here is not choosing between a race and giving up our freedom, the dillema is choosing between a race and allowing people to do an event that will kill a number of participants in it. That is the dillema and that does not bring our freedom, which is a human right, in danger. In fact it protects a human right, the right to live. The right to kill yourself is not a human right.
And for your information: I hold a degree in law and am specialised in human rights and constitutional law (state law).

 

You are also using 'false correlation' with that statement because not beiing able to participate in the Isle of Mann TT because it is canceled does not mean that your freedom is taken away from you since there is no correlation between that race and a human right (freedom).

You are also using an 'ad hominum' with that, you suggest that I am against freedom but I am merely stating that we should not organise events that kill an average of 4 participants per year. That does not show that I would be against freedom. So you are making a personal attack on me by saying that 'ad hominum', you are claiming that you are for freedom and that I am against it, false argument.

 

Again you are doing exactly the same as the first person I originally replied to. You are reaction out of your emotion. So you feel an emotion because of my statement and you form an opinion out of that emotion and then you try to justify that opinion by rationalising it. That is exactly what Trump voters (not that I am comparing you with them in any way) are currently doing with their false accusations of voter fraud in the US. What you should do is let that emotion be what it is, look at different viewpoints at the statement then rationalise without the emotion influencing it or attaching your personal value to it, and then rationalise you argument based upon that process. You stated your argumentation using your emotion (and your hobby, watching motorsport, that triggers an emotion with you) as baseline and not using rationalising as baseline. That is why you react subjectively.

 

But the Isle of Man TT is a matter of a different order, if you look at the casualty / death rate it is plain for everyone to see that it kills a massive amount of people and people die there every year, usually around 3-4 and sometimes up to 6.

If you analise those fatalities numbers and look at the average amount of deaths per year, the facts or there but you won't be able to accept those numbers because you are allowing your emotion to influence the way you look at those facts and that clouds your judgement, hence the reason why people use fallacies to justify and rationalise their thinking:

https://en.wikipedia...urse_fatalities

Dude, there is racing this weekend. I don't have time to read your philosophical ponderings. I am not interested in engaging is sophistry (sorry if the spelling is wrong, not a native speaker). You asked about non-motorsports event, would I allow them, if they are deadly. I mentioned Everest because it is a non-motorsport lethal challenge. That's all.

However, we are now very much off topic with the TT! This is the Macau GP! I am against banning either event and frankly, it is up for the Isle of Mann and the city of Macau to decide. We are mostly armchair experts here although it seems that there are some competitors...

[AlexPrime]

One of the touring car races was without commentary. Shocking.

[MattK9]

What is this, are you calling me a softie for not being particularly keen to watch people die in live television?

I see the TT in a slightly different light than the Macau bikes race, because it's its own event with its own culture. Wanna live in the 1960s culture and get smashed at 300kph against a tree, I don't like it but be my guest, it's consensual adults taking risks they understand. But in the Macau race, it's a little different because it's a support race to the main event. Not sure it paints the main international F3 event in great light, when the commentators are like "oh and over there, that's the corner in which some random guy got his corpse cut in 3 different parts against the guardrail yesterday. Anyway, here in the fight for P4..."

I very much agree with this post. The dangers & risk involved in road racing bikes is unacceptable to the FIA and to the majority of racers involved in the F3, GT or touring car races.

Im not saying the bike races at Macau shouldn't exist, but that it should not be associated with the cars and not held on the same race weekend.

[SB]

One of the touring car races was without commentary. Shocking.

 

Does it really matter ? 

 

I doubt how many (non Chinese) people, including the commentator himself, could remember or identify so many new but all similar Chinese names ? 

[jonpollak]

O’Ward on pole barring race control penalty
Jp