422 replies to this topic

[shure]

So what actually makes it hard to drive a W125? 

 

The only thing I can imagine is the total lack of power steering - making the steering itself heavy. What else is so physically tiring about driving those cars?

well for starters they were probably a lot less balanced overall than modern technology would allow.  They also used manual gearboxes, which require more force to operate, depressing the heavy clutch multiple times per lap and having to manually adjust for engine speed etc.  In a modern car the driver never has to take his hands off the steering wheel.  The centre of gravity was much, much higher than in today's cars and the brakes wouldn't have been anywhere near as powerful or reliable, either.  Look at the amount of steering correction a driver today has to do even compared with drivers of 20 years ago, then imagine that increasing the further you go into the past as technology and understanding of car behaviour worsens.

[Risil]

I expect it would've been mentally extremely taxing as the W125 would frequently wheelspin in top gear. And the amount of steering input -- without power steering, like you say -- to keep it pointed in the right direction would've required a lot of upper body strength.

[BRG]

I expect it would've been mentally extremely taxing as the W125 would frequently wheelspin in top gear. And the amount of steering input -- without power steering, like you say -- to keep it pointed in the right direction would've required a lot of upper body strength.

Not sure about that.  Given that tyres back then had slightly less grip than the boys had in Turkey the other day and you had a huge steering wheel which reduced the load, I think the effort was not so great.  Remember that hardly any road cars outside the US had power steering until the 1970s and we all managed - little old ladies included - perfectly well.  

[FrontWing]

Time to close this one up.

[Risil]

Not sure about that.  Given that tyres back then had slightly less grip than the boys had in Turkey the other day and you had a huge steering wheel which reduced the load, I think the effort was not so great.  Remember that hardly any road cars outside the US had power steering until the 1970s and we all managed - little old ladies included - perfectly well.  

 

You're probably right. You certainly do read reports of extreme physical exhaustion in past races but they're normally traced back to something wrong with the car -- like the Delages that competed in the early Grands Prix of 1926 where the exhaust passed very close to the driver in the cockpit and especially the pedals, resulting in burns and heat stroke for anyone who tried to drive them.

 

Agree we're getting pretty far from the original topic.

[CountDooku]

Not sure if this has been posted yet but Ed Straw made this video essentially demolishing a lot of arguments used against Lewis:

[shure]

Not sure if this has been posted yet but Ed Straw made this video essentially demolishing a lot of arguments used against Lewis:

I don't think this video adds much new tbh.  And some of it is a bit vague.  The accompanying article in the original source material states:

 

When he wins without having to race other cars in literal terms, he’s effectively done his racing in other ways.

 

which to me is a little creative.  he also states that Lewis is the lead driver in his Mercedes thanks to his performance, not preference, but that doesn't really answer the question on whether he has a compliant team mate.  I don't think anybody is arguing he's not better than Bottas, for example.

 

Ultimately, I don't see any myths debunked but just a bit of padding on existing arguments.  If someone feels Lewis is only winning due to preferential treatment - which I think is wrong btw - then this article doesn't bring in anything new to counter that

[Paul Parker]

So what actually makes it hard to drive a W125? 

 

The only thing I can imagine is the total lack of power steering - making the steering itself heavy. What else is so physically tiring about driving those cars?

The entirety of the car was tiring in period although in 1937 it was the best that could be raced, the tyres were 5.25 x 19 front and 7.00 X 19 rear and on high speed circuits like Avus used 22 inch rear rims, the long straight eight engine that weighed 222 kg despite being steel, the brakes which had to be nursed, the methanol/Benzine fuel which was highly toxic and so on.

 

Of course latter day W125s with modern materials are easier but overall these cars and their counterparts require serious ability.

[Requiem84]

The entirety of the car was tiring in period although in 1937 it was the best that could be raced, the tyres were 5.25 x 19 front and 7.00 X 19 rear and on high speed circuits like Avus used 22 inch rear rims, the long straight eight engine that weighed 222 kg despite being steel, the brakes which had to be nursed, the methanol/Benzine fuel which was highly toxic and so on.

Of course latter day W125s with modern materials are easier but overall these cars and their counterparts require serious ability.

The required ability isn’t questioned, just trying to understand the required physicality.

[ensign14]

The races were a lot longer and there was a lot more heat coming back at you from the engine as well.  With no cool suit/balaclava to help. 

[Jovanotti]

Not sure about that.  Given that tyres back then had slightly less grip than the boys had in Turkey the other day and you had a huge steering wheel which reduced the load, I think the effort was not so great.  Remember that hardly any road cars outside the US had power steering until the 1970s and we all managed - little old ladies included - perfectly well.  

I posted this a while ago:

I just recently came across an interview with Hans Joachim Stuck who drove an Auto Union from his father - he didn't understand how it even was physically possible to race the 30's cars for 3 hours straight at the limit. And he drove everything in the 70's/80's in a much less pampered environment than today.

 Honestly if anything I think the efforts and courage of those 1930's madmen is still underrated.

Edited by Jovanotti, 24 November 2020 - 14:08.

[alframsey]

Anybody here who thinks todays drivers wouldn't have been able to handle the physicality of any other era of racing care, are silly. These people are all humans and they would all have adapted to the needs of the time. It is a complete none argument in my mind. To say the supreme athletes of today might not handle the demands of a car driven by Fangio, Stewart, Lauda, Senna and vice versa makes no sense in my mind, its as if you are all saying these drivers wouldn't have approached the sport in a different manner than they did their era.

[ExEd]

Not sure if this has been posted yet but Ed Straw made this video essentially demolishing a lot of arguments used against Lewis:

 

Spot on. Sums it up pretty much 

[Michael Ferner]

Anybody here who thinks todays drivers wouldn't have been able to handle the physicality of any other era of racing care, are silly. These people are all humans and they would all have adapted to the needs of the time. It is a complete none argument in my mind. To say the supreme athletes of today might not handle the demands of a car driven by Fangio, Stewart, Lauda, Senna and vice versa makes no sense in my mind, its as if you are all saying these drivers wouldn't have approached the sport in a different manner than they did their era.

 

Nobody's been saying that, but the vice-versa is apparently taken for granted.

[PayasYouRace]

Nobody's been saying that, but the vice-versa is apparently taken for granted.

 

The thing is, there's a solid argument that today's drivers are much better prepared than those of the past, both physically and mentally. We're simply much better at training racing drivers that we were in the past. The competition to reach the upper series is incredible, and you can see it in how close fields of spec cars are nowadays. I used the example of the BMW Procar series, and how large the gaps were in the race.

 

I don't think it is possible to directly compare a Fangio to a Senna, or a Clark to a Hamilton because of how much the sport has changed. But I think it's an entirely reasonable position to conclude that the field that Fangio faced was a lot worse, on average, than the field Hamilton faces today, and that there would be roughly linear progression over time.

 

I also think it's nonsense for anyone to claim that the cars of any era were particularly easy to drive. The challenge may have changed, but the overall level of skill and physical endurance required has not.

[Michael Ferner]

So, you are willing to grant today's drivers the opportunity to adapt to the needs of the time, but not those of the past? Makes no sense to me.

[PayasYouRace]

So, you are willing to grant today's drivers the opportunity to adapt to the needs of the time, but not those of the past? Makes no sense to me.

That’s not what I’ve said at all, but it’s definitely part of the strawman you’re desperate to set up.

[ensign14]

I don't think it is possible to directly compare a Fangio to a Senna, or a Clark to a Hamilton because of how much the sport has changed. But I think it's an entirely reasonable position to conclude that the field that Fangio faced was a lot worse, on average, than the field Hamilton faces today, and that there would be roughly linear progression over time.

You can also say it was a lot better, on the basis that natural selection would have weeded a lot out...

[paipa]

All hail the new king.

Enjoy the trivial chatter about G-forces, pit stops and power steering. Fangio, Schumacher and Hamilton have infinitely more in common with each other than with their contemporaries.

Kings are kings, peasants are peasants.

[Con1]

The races were a lot longer and there was a lot more heat coming back at you from the engine as well.  With no cool suit/balaclava to help. 

Can I ask the last time you put a fireproof suit and balaclava on to help you cool down?

[ensign14]

It's how Keke Rosberg won in the murderous Dallas heat.

[cpbell]

Not sure about that.  Given that tyres back then had slightly less grip than the boys had in Turkey the other day and you had a huge steering wheel which reduced the load, I think the effort was not so great.  Remember that hardly any road cars outside the US had power steering until the 1970s and we all managed - little old ladies included - perfectly well.  

Ironically, the W125 was one of the first cars where sitting close to the steering was no longer necessary as it had been until that point.  In short, previous GP cars had stiff leaf-spring suspension and flexible chassis; combined with heavy steering, this meant that the driver steered with his upper body and shoulders, as the cars would often switch from understeer to oversteer as the heavy beam axles (massive unsprung weight) moved, imparting road shock through the chassis which flexed torsionally, thereby changing the cross-loads (front left to rear right and front right to rear left or vice versa.)  On the W125, the designers introduced torsion bar suspension for the independently-sprung front end, and re-introduced the de Dion system at the rear  which eliminated the solid beam axle, reducing the unsprung weight, and, with the use of a stiffer chassis, enabled suspension travel to nearly double.  Despite this, the W125 was still tiring to drive, not least because it produced between 550 and 610 bhp depending on fuel specification.

Edited by cpbell, 26 November 2020 - 19:36.

[Dolph]

Lewis can't win them all...

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=LnBbvL8sPmw

Edited by Dolph, 28 November 2020 - 00:05.