Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

2030 UK ban on petrol and diesel new cars sale and the impact on motorsport


  • Please log in to reply
216 replies to this topic

#1 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 15:28

https://www.theguard...-cars-from-2030

 

9 years is not a long time. How can the motorsport world, especially F1, react? Please discuss.

 

In my subjective opinion, electric is not very good for racing at all and if electric does dominate in the future, the motorsport world is doomed. Your thought?



Advertisement

#2 CountDooku

CountDooku
  • Member

  • 11,087 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 17 November 2020 - 15:47

https://www.theguard...-cars-from-2030

9 years is not a long time. How can the motorsport world, especially F1, react? Please discuss.

In my subjective opinion, electric is not very good for racing at all and if electric does dominate in the future, the motorsport world is doomed. Your thought?


Not due to happen for Hybrids until 2035 apparently, and I doubt they will reach that date.
But yeah, this confirms that those pining for the days of simple NA V10s and V8s are living in the past.

#3 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 15:55

I'm actually not living in the UK. British folks out there, what do you think and what do you feel, is it a political statement from the PM or is it gonna be real? As I understood, even hybrid ICE would be banned by this rule, leaving only EVs and hydrogen vehicles and whatever it would be at that time, eligible?

 

In the aspect of electric racing, I don't believe FE would evolve by any significant degree in 9 years time. They are 6 years down the road and still as mediocre as ever, IMO.


Edited by GTR, 17 November 2020 - 15:57.


#4 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 11,176 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:10

I'm very confident in saying that 9 years is a VERY long way off. Governments have a history of promising things that far into the future only to change their minds when the date draws nearer. I will be extremely surprised if this is any different.



#5 F1matt

F1matt
  • Member

  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:15

I cant imagine any manufacturer is still developing ICE now, most of their resources must be on electric so in nine years time they will be the normal. As for the manufacturers who uses motorsport to sell cars? 

 

The sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2030, however people will be able to own and sell them for many years after that and it will take several years before petrol stations become a thing of the past. 



#6 f1paul

f1paul
  • Member

  • 7,833 posts
  • Joined: April 16

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:18

Times are changing, I think electric racing is the way forward for motorsport - definitely rallying, touring cars, GTs. People might not like that but I've come to think over the last few years its the way to go.

 

For teams and manufacturers, drivers even, sponsors want to electric motorsport and I think the FIA will push electric racing too.

 

I think we'll see a rise in the number of electric series over the next decade.



#7 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:19

A ban on new ICE-only car sales by 2030 isn't impossible at all and demand for them might significantly fall before then anyway in favour of hybrids and pure EVs. 

 

As for there impact on motorsport? Well (considering this is about expected UK domestic policy) the BTCC will be going hybrid in 2022 so they're already way ahead of the curve on this. Nice indication of how the right leadership motorsport will just adapt to the times. 


Edited by Ben1445, 17 November 2020 - 16:20.


#8 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 26,208 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:20

I also wonder what percentage of motorsport in the UK is based on new cars. I doubt it's a very large percentage.



#9 Muppetmad

Muppetmad
  • Member

  • 6,498 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:20

To be honest, I'm in the camp of people who thinks 2030 is too late. I sympathise with those who want to keep the ICE in motorsport, but manufacturers will view them in an increasingly dim light as time goes on. Whether that's a good thing or not, I wouldn't wish to say. It's hard to overlook the money that manufacturers bring to F1 and other high-level series though.



#10 CountDooku

CountDooku
  • Member

  • 11,087 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:33

I'm actually not living in the UK. British folks out there, what do you think and what do you feel, is it a political statement from the PM or is it gonna be real? As I understood, even hybrid ICE would be banned by this rule, leaving only EVs and hydrogen vehicles and whatever it would be at that time, eligible?

In the aspect of electric racing, I don't believe FE would evolve by any significant degree in 9 years time. They are 6 years down the road and still as mediocre as ever, IMO.


I think the ICE-only ban is certainly going to happen and is fairly feasible in that time horizon, but I suspect plug-in hybrids will be here for a very, very long time.

EVs and Hydrogen-only by 2030 is a pipe dream. The government have invested just £300m so far in charging infrastructure for EVs and nothing for hydrogen. We need £100-200 billion worth of new infrastructure funding for generation and distribution to meet this demand and the Treasury is empty due to COVID-19.

#11 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 36,933 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:38

I also wonder what percentage of motorsport in the UK is based on new cars. I doubt it's a very large percentage.

 

I doubt it's going to directly affect motorsport, but presumably a lot of manufacturer sponsorship at the dealer/importer level is predicated on shifting new cars to consumers.

 

On a related tangent, I'll be interested to see in the years to come what kind of homebrew electric cars can be built for the club racing scene. Has lawnmower racing gone electric yet?



#12 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 4,533 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:47

I also wonder what percentage of motorsport in the UK is based on new cars. I doubt it's a very large percentage.


Track days, lower class motorsports, amateur races, demolition derbies.. you can name the whole shabang. But in the end, if proven to be true, it will be all affected. The question at hand would be; is motorsports also going to be affected and if so, did the government realize there are millions of people that do attend or participate in earlier mentioned races? If not then I would think that some motorsports might get some coulance.

#13 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 16:47

I'm actually not living in the UK. British folks out there, what do you think and what do you feel, is it a political statement from the PM or is it gonna be real? As I understood, even hybrid ICE would be banned by this rule, leaving only EVs and hydrogen vehicles and whatever it would be at that time, eligible?

I'm actually inclined to believe that this is genuine. The target set by the previous PM a couple of years ago was 2040 not-including hybrids - that was something I did interpret as more of an easy and far away political statement to make. It meant little other than signalling an intended direction.

 

However, bringing that to 2030 and including hybrids to that in around 2035-2040 (this being the more critical/debatable deadline date here) is something which actually requires the groundwork to be laid by the current government within their current term in office. Stakeholders will actually have to hold them to account on it. 

 

In the aspect of electric racing, I don't believe FE would evolve by any significant degree in 9 years time. They are 6 years down the road and still as mediocre as ever, IMO.

Between 2014 and 2020 Formula E has gone from: 

Race power: 150 kW -> 200 kW

Regen power: 100 kW -> 250 kW

Capacity: 28 kWh -> 54 kWh

Stint length: ~25 mins -> 45 mins +1 lap 

Weight: 880 kg -> 900 kg

 

Most of the improvements went into ending the mid-race car swaps. However, Gen3 specs for 2022/23 announced fairly recently will change as follows: 

 

Race power: 200 kW -> 300 kW

Regen power: 250 kW -> 600 kW (that's not a typo) 

Capacity: 54kWh -> ~54 kWh

Weight: 900kg -> 780kg

 

Then, under current plans, we will see Gen4 come into use around 2026/2027 and run to 2030. So the question really is what do you define as 'significant'? 


Edited by Ben1445, 17 November 2020 - 16:55.


#14 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 4,533 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:01

Between 2014 and 2020 Formula E has gone from:
Race power: 150 kW -> 200 kW
Regen power: 100 kW -> 250 kW
Capacity: 28 kWh -> 54 kWh
Stint length: ~25 mins -> 45 mins +1 lap
Weight: 880 kg -> 900 kg

Most of the improvements went into ending the mid-race car swaps. However, Gen3 specs for 2022/23 announced fairly recently will change as follows:

Race power: 200 kW -> 300 kW
Regen power: 250 kW -> 600 kW
Capacity: 54kWh -> ~54 kWh
Weight: 900kg -> 780kg

Then, under current plans, we will see Gen4 come into use around 2026/2027 and run to 2030. So the question really is what do you define as 'significant'?


That's really impressive improvement. Do you know how they will shed 120kgs? Because that's a significant improvement. Brings it to sub Formula 1 standards. Could make for some serious contention to Formula 1 after 2030 if Formula 1 doesn't come up with a good engine formula.

Anyway on topic: the article is about car sales that are going to be banned. It doesn't say anything about banning cars altogether. It does say the net zero greenhouse gases target by 2050 is a hard target. But that can be reached in more ways than banning petrol cars all together.

#15 stairpotato

stairpotato
  • Member

  • 664 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:04

The FIA should kickstart an electric engine arms race.  Restrict ICE power and allow teams unlimited budget and power to be 100% electric.  Imagine what developments manufacturers will come up with that will have direct road relevance.



#16 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 14,573 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:09

The FIA should kickstart an electric engine arms race.  Restrict ICE power and allow teams unlimited budget and power to be 100% electric.  Imagine what developments manufacturers will come up with that will have direct road relevance.

They can't. Whatever is produced for racing is too specific for that purpose. Manufacturers don't go into motosports to develop their consumer products; they go to win.

 

At the costs of developping new tech (an 'arms race'), it's better to spend on actual road car R&D than F1, as Honda have chosen to do.



#17 pitlanepalpatine

pitlanepalpatine
  • Member

  • 2,206 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:11

I'm guessing this is why F1 keeps harping on about the fanbase not having a clue on how these engines actually work in regards to carbon neutrality and why sky keeps spamming that Petronas add. But considering the stance Britain is taking regarding its sovereignty, becoming net neutral off bio fuels is not an achievable goal. But considering the IEA has silly bio fuel expectations aimed at 25% coverage by 2050 and IRENA is headquartered in Abu Dhabi  :clap:  I'm sure all these plans are very realistic  :rolleyes:  :lol:  I mean, humanity never does anything that'd risk life on this plant for something as silly as personal gain...that's why I like to catch my sun tan in Moruroa.  :rotfl:



#18 stairpotato

stairpotato
  • Member

  • 664 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:13

They can't. Whatever is produced for racing is too specific for that purpose. Manufacturers don't go into motosports to develop their consumer products; they go to win.

 

At the costs of developping new tech (an 'arms race'), it's better to spend on actual road car R&D than F1, as Honda have chosen to do.

 

That's demonstrably not true - there have been numerous developments that have transferred directly to road cars a simple google will provide you with evidence, but off the top of my head - semi automatic gearboxes, AWD and active suspension all came from motorsports, but there are others and that doesn't include developments that benefitted pre-existing technologies.



#19 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:14

That's really impressive improvement. Do you know how they will shed 120kgs? Because that's a significant improvement. Brings it to sub Formula 1 standards. Could make for some serious contention to Formula 1 after 2030 if Formula 1 doesn't come up with a good engine formula.

I think a good chunk of it should come from battery chemistry and packaging improvements between mid-2018 and Gen3's introduction much like the step from Gen1 to Gen2, but I wouldn't rule out some weight being shaved from the chassis/powertrain as well.

 

Edit: For some reason I've got the battery weight reduction being from 380kg in Gen2 down to 280kg in Gen3 lurking in my memory from the tender documents but I can't verify that at present. 


Edited by Ben1445, 17 November 2020 - 17:17.


Advertisement

#20 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 4,533 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:15

I'm guessing this is why F1 keeps harping on about the fanbase not having a clue on how these engines actually work in regards to carbon neutrality and why sky keeps spamming that Petronas add. But considering the stance Britain is taking regarding its sovereignty, becoming net neutral off bio fuels is not an achievable goal. But considering the IEA has silly bio fuel expectations aimed at 25% coverage by 2050 and IRENA is headquartered in Abu Dhabi :clap: I'm sure all these plans are very realistic :rolleyes: :lol: I mean, humanity never does anything that'd risk life on this plant for something as silly as personal gain...that's why I like to catch my sun tan in Moruroa. :rotfl:


That tan has another reason if Moruroa is your place to be 😉

#21 Retrofly

Retrofly
  • Member

  • 4,286 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:18

For most racing (im talking national level) I can't see the changes making much difference, people still race MZ Motorcycles :lol:

 

Electric/hybrid will only affect the top levels first then trickle down, hell are 2 stroke motorcycles still racing in some national championships in the UK? Seems to take a long time for wholesale change,talking decades.



#22 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:19

I'm actually inclined to believe that this is genuine. The target set by the previous PM a couple of years ago was 2040 not-including hybrids - that was something I did interpret as more of an easy and far away political statement to make. It meant little other than signalling an intended direction.

However, bringing that to 2030 and including hybrids to that in around 2035-2040 (this being the more critical/debatable deadline date here) is something which actually requires the groundwork to be laid by the current government within their current term in office. Stakeholders will actually have to hold them to account on it.

Between 2014 and 2020 Formula E has gone from:
Race power: 150 kW -> 200 kW
Regen power: 100 kW -> 250 kW
Capacity: 28 kWh -> 54 kWh
Stint length: ~25 mins -> 45 mins +1 lap
Weight: 880 kg -> 900 kg

Most of the improvements went into ending the mid-race car swaps. However, Gen3 specs for 2022/23 announced fairly recently will change as follows:

Race power: 200 kW -> 300 kW
Regen power: 250 kW -> 600 kW (that's not a typo)
Capacity: 54kWh -> ~54 kWh
Weight: 900kg -> 780kg

Then, under current plans, we will see Gen4 come into use around 2026/2027 and run to 2030. So the question really is what do you define as 'significant'?


The numbers are impressive mate. Thanks for providing. Have to admit I don't follow FE that closely in order to notice these improvements in numbers, over time.

Just that I feel the racing is still the same, maybe it is the characteristic of EVs? and the power boost thing is so artificial.

I mean those cars still behave the same way as we know as an EV of the current time, and they do not provide exciting racing.

Any breakthrough coming regarding the nature of EVs that can make them behave closer to ICE race cars thus provide more interesting racing?

#23 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 14,573 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:23

That's demonstrably not true - there have been numerous developments that have transferred directly to road cars a simple google will provide you with evidence, but off the top of my head - semi automatic gearboxes, AWD and active suspension all came from motorsports, but there are others and that doesn't include developments that benefitted pre-existing technologies.

Semi-autos had a long, long, loooonnng history prior to 1989...

 

https://en.wikipedia...ic_transmission

 

Same for active suspension: 

 

https://en.wikipedia...tive_suspension

 

First application of disc brakes? Arguably 1898, though most people think 1902...

 

https://classicsworl...the-disc-brake/


Edited by FLB, 17 November 2020 - 17:28.


#24 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 36,933 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:27

For most racing (im talking national level) I can't see the changes making much difference, people still race MZ Motorcycles :lol:

 

Electric/hybrid will only affect the top levels first then trickle down, hell are 2 stroke motorcycles still racing in some national championships in the UK? Seems to take a long time for wholesale change,talking decades.

 

Yeah, in the smallest bike racing classes four-stroke Moto3 machinery has been gradually replacing two-stroke 125s for the best part of a decade. I can't think of any significant championships where 250cc two-stroke bikes still race but I'm sure it's still happening somewhere.

 

So I think you're right that the more a series relies on private entries, the slower the rate of change will be.



#25 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 36,933 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:27

Semi-autos had a long, long, loooonnng history prior to 1989...

 

https://en.wikipedia...ic_transmission

 

Same for active suspension: 

 

https://en.wikipedia...tive_suspension

 

First disc brakes? 1902...

 

https://classicsworl...the-disc-brake/

 

Did motor racing invent putting an aeroplane engine inside a car though?



#26 thiscocks

thiscocks
  • Member

  • 1,312 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:31

Don't worry it wont happen. Especially if synthetic fuels become more developed.



#27 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 14,573 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:33

Did motor racing invent putting an aeroplane engine inside a car though?

It's actually amazing how many racing innovations came from aviation/aerospace (carbon fiber brakes, anyone?).


Edited by FLB, 17 November 2020 - 17:33.


#28 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 18,686 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:33

I'm guessing this is why F1 keeps harping on about the fanbase not having a clue on how these engines actually work in regards to carbon neutrality and why sky keeps spamming that Petronas add. But considering the stance Britain is taking regarding its sovereignty, becoming net neutral off bio fuels is not an achievable goal. But considering the IEA has silly bio fuel expectations aimed at 25% coverage by 2050 and IRENA is headquartered in Abu Dhabi  :clap:  I'm sure all these plans are very realistic  :rolleyes:  :lol:  I mean, humanity never does anything that'd risk life on this plant for something as silly as personal gain...that's why I like to catch my sun tan in Moruroa.  :rotfl:

Find a politician willing to tell people that they have to cut back their activities. Even COVID doesn't convince many people to do that.

 

Here car ownership has significantly risen in the last decade, while the population stays the same, and starts slowly declining. IMO the bigger issue than the actual type of engine is found elsewhere.

 

Young people didn't want to learn how to drive car for a while to protect the environment, until the electric car revolution came into full swing. That was a lost opportunity to make a real impact by reducing the number of cars on the roads.. Now those young people can drive around, feeling great about their contribution towards the environment. It's just that many of them resolved not to bother with buying a car, but even governments convinced them that having an e-car is better for the environment than having none.

 

These government campaigns need to be carefully examined too, if they truly achieve their goals.

 

Well in a decade we know better about the environmental impact of those cars. Accident studies, car recycling data in big style should help.

 

Until then I'd propose any government does well to think up better plans, how to improve their policies. An interesting study case is from Zürich, Switzerland. People have several choices and public transportation is so competitive with private cars, that many people use public transportation instead of private cars. Of course most people still own a car, but they use it not so often, and then comes the point where people asking themselves if it is worth to maintain and pay for their own private car. That's IMO smart government, giving people better and more options, instead of forcing people into certain patterns. 


Edited by HP, 17 November 2020 - 17:36.


#29 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 14,573 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:34

Don't worry it wont happen. Especially if synthetic fuels become more developed.

That's what I think as well.



#30 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 26,208 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:35

Don't worry it wont happen. Especially if synthetic fuels become more developed.

 

How does synthetic fuels solve the problem of carbon dioxide emissions? Surely they're also carbon based.



#31 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:40

Don't worry it wont happen. Especially if synthetic fuels become more developed.

It would be awesome, as IMO ICE would still be the way to go forward, as long as we can do something with the fuel so that the engine doesn't emit toxic gases.

EVs, on the other hand, at their current form, the way they behave IMO is so anti-racing, and some forms of racing just cannot happen with today's EV technology i.e. Le Mans or Dakar.

Talking about hydrogen cars, why some EV folks are so anti-hydrogen and would hydrogen be better for racing?

Edited by GTR, 17 November 2020 - 17:41.


#32 thiscocks

thiscocks
  • Member

  • 1,312 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:43

How does synthetic fuels solve the problem of carbon dioxide emissions? Surely they're also carbon based.

 CO2 and Hydrogen is the basis. I'm no expert, but most ideas other than producing and discarding millions of lithium iron batteries sound prefereble. 

 

 

https://www.bosch.co...ynthetic-fuels/


Edited by thiscocks, 17 November 2020 - 17:45.


#33 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:45

The numbers are impressive mate. Thanks for providing. Have to admit I don't follow FE that closely in order to notice these improvements in numbers, over time.

Just that I feel the racing is still the same, maybe it is the characteristic of EVs? and the power boost thing is so artificial.

I mean those cars still behave the same way as we know as an EV of the current time, and they do not provide exciting racing.

Any breakthrough coming regarding the nature of EVs that can make them behave closer to ICE race cars thus provide more interesting racing?

 

I suppose, when it comes to it, Gen2 FE cars are sort of just better and longer-range Gen1 cars. They are still rear wheel drive/regen, conventional layout single seaters with a battery where the combustion engine would usually be. There's not really much fundamental difference between them so they do race much the same way.... just a bit quicker than they used to and without needing to swap cars mid-race. If you compare the very first Formula E races to today there is a reasonably noticeable improvement step in pace. 

 

Gen3 is a bigger step as improving battery technology should be able to cope with much higher charging rates and enable the addition of front axle energy recovery under braking. That should make racing both faster and make the required lift-and-coast technique less aggressive (and so closer to traditional racing). Again, though, I think a lot of this depends on what we all define as being the qualities of interesting racing... 



#34 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 14,573 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:45

 

Talking about hydrogen cars, why some EV folks are so anti-hydrogen and would hydrogen be better for racing?

Hydrogen would be possible for Le Mans, at least. For electrics at Le Mans, they would need, IMHO, at least 100km range, at full chat, and then be able to do quick battery swaps in the pits.

 

Charging/refueling times is the key.


Edited by FLB, 17 November 2020 - 17:47.


#35 Retrofly

Retrofly
  • Member

  • 4,286 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:47

Don't worry it wont happen. Especially if synthetic fuels become more developed.

Synthetic fuels?



#36 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 4,533 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:51

Synthetic fuels?


As said by ThisCocks later on:

CO2 and Hydrogen is the basis. I'm no expert, but most ideas other than producing and discarding millions of lithium iron batteries sound prefereble.


https://www.bosch.co...ynthetic-fuels/



#37 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 17:55

CO2 and Hydrogen is the basis. I'm no expert, but most ideas other than producing and discarding millions of lithium iron batteries sound prefereble.

 
Going to point to my post about this from the 2026 F1 powertrain thread: 
 

There is going to be a lot of discussion about hydrogen and bio/synthetic fuels here and in F1’s direct stakeholder boardrooms, so here’s my typical problem statement:

Firstly, we all need to be aware that over 95% of current global hydrogen supply comes as a by-product of the fossil fuel industry (natural gas, oil and coal). 'Green hydrogen' can be created through processes such as electrolysis of water but requires renewably generated electricity as an input. Corollary is that a solution reliant on hydrogen also requires mass adoption of renewable energy if we truly wish to move away from fossil fuel sources.

Biofuels derived from biomass are, in theory, carbon neutral almost by definition; plant takes carbon out of the atmoshpere, plant is turned into usable fuel, carbon gets re-released into atmosphere. However, emission considerations as a result of land use changes, farming/harvesting, transportation and processing into biofuel also need to be factored in. And that’s before you start worrying about how agriculture can support a growing population size and food production alongside biofuel production.

Synthetic fuels are made from the combination of a hydrogen and carbon feedstock to be combined together to make a usable hydrocarbon. These feedstocks usually come from fossil fuel industry, but can come from a combination of ‘green hydrogen’ and biomass. This therefore shares the same issues as the two previously mentioned cases to produce as well as the extra process of energy input while converting to a new synthetic hydrocrbon.

Conclusion is that there isn’t a magic bullet solution on any front. Solving the problem of how to power our transportation needs without the carbon impact being too high (short of rationing their use) is a complicated and nuanced debate which needs to take into account the entire impact. And yes, that goes for battery electric vehicles too.

 

On the subject of battery end of life disposal though... battery recycling is very much a part of the developing EV ecosystem. Fears of mountains of leaking, toxic batteries piling up at landfill sites are generally unfounded. 



#38 CountDooku

CountDooku
  • Member

  • 11,087 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:00

They can't. Whatever is produced for racing is too specific for that purpose. Manufacturers don't go into motosports to develop their consumer products; they go to win.


A battery is a battery and an electric motor is an electric motor. Every piece of electric powertrain development is directly applicable to the road. McLaren for example used their FE motors in the P1 and will likely use the latest gen motors in their sports series hybrids.

#39 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 12,674 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:06

In the "old days" you had new technology ... then you had regulation.

 

Now you have regulation ... and technology is supposed to follow. 

 

This is just hubris by the bureaucrats and the managers of the corporations .... have they heard of something called "the market"?

 

 

.... oh yeah ... and this is bad for racing too.



Advertisement

#40 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:21

Again, though, I think a lot of this depends on what we all define as being the qualities of interesting racing...


Really appreciate your knowhow for FE mate. Very interesting inside that you provided. However, if we have to manage expectations of what is interesting racing, it is not a good sign mate. We should intuitively know when there is good interesting racing going on. Sometimes I wonder are we entering an era in which resources are dwindling and we all have to be reasonable and politically correct and behave, and things are going downhill? Where is the time when V12 and V10 F1 cars just blasting at full speed? Now we are going with batteries and lift & coast techniques and things (this I talk about FE. F1 is still good, but for how long?). I'm not an idiot who is clinging onto the past, but we are supposed to improve things do we?

Edited by GTR, 17 November 2020 - 18:24.


#41 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:32

Really appreciate your knowhow for FE mate. Very interesting inside that you provided. However, if we have to manage expectations of what is interesting racing, it is not a good sign mate. We should intuitively know when there is good interesting racing going on. Sometimes I wonder are we entering an era in which resources are dwindling and we all have to be reasonable and politically correct and behave, and things are going downhill? Where is the time when V12 and V10 F1 cars just blasting at full speed? Now we are going with batteries and lift & coast techniques and things (this I talk about FE. F1 is still good, but for how long?). I'm not an idiot who is clinging onto the past, but we are supposed to improve things do we?

 

I mean, Formula E is my favourite series out there right now. To me the racing is inherently interesting and exciting and I enjoy it more than I used to enjoy F1 (in recent years at least). For you (and others) this does not seem to be the case - and that's ok, I'm not thinking any worse of you for it.  

 

At the end of the day, it's not that much different really from talking about the various appeals of sprint racing vs endurance racing or single seater racing vs touring cars. As you yourself say, it's a subjective opinion. 



#42 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 10,220 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:35

I doubt it's going to directly affect motorsport, but presumably a lot of manufacturer sponsorship at the dealer/importer level is predicated on shifting new cars to consumers.

 

On a related tangent, I'll be interested to see in the years to come what kind of homebrew electric cars can be built for the club racing scene. Has lawnmower racing gone electric yet?

Manufacturer support underpins a lot more motorsport than we care to admit when you look at what the local subsidiaries and dealers do, and they only get involved if they can show what they sell. So yes eventually this will affect all motorsport, if just because the supply of cars will start to run out for anything production based.

 

On your tangent, as long as you can control it someone will race it. I've zero doubts we'll have all forms of racing going on powered by whatever people come up with!



#43 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 5,711 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:48

I wonder if independent servicing/EV retrofit garages could stump up the cash to go national/club racing with EVs? It might be one way to publicise or convince the automotive crowd that they're still knowledgable even in the new world of electrification. 


Edited by Ben1445, 17 November 2020 - 18:49.


#44 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 18:54

I mean, Formula E is my favourite series out there right now. To me the racing is inherently interesting and exciting and I enjoy it more than I used to enjoy F1 (in recent years at least). For you (and others) this does not seem to be the case - and that's ok, I'm not thinking any worse of you for it.

At the end of the day, it's not that much different really from talking about the various appeals of sprint racing vs endurance racing or single seater racing vs touring cars. As you yourself say, it's a subjective opinion.


Good for you mate. It's cool that your favourite racing serie is FE, as I know there always be competitive racing there.

I also don't want to make this thread to be a comparision of this racing series vs that racing series, which one is better, since it would be as pointless as it can be.

I just think that, again, my humble opinion, electric cars do not even make driving interesting, let alone how can they make racing interesting? A basic technique for EV driving is one pedal driving in order to regen. I don't find this technique very exciting at all. It's all about managing expectations really: ahh, I can get used to it, it's not too bad.

Of course, EVs will get better over time. Question is, how much better, to the level that we can intuitively feel this is a good car and we would not care is it an EV or an ICE vehicle anymore, or it would still come down to managing expectations?

A big question for the future indeed.

#45 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 37,864 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 17 November 2020 - 22:26

I'm very confident in saying that 9 years is a VERY long way off. Governments have a history of promising things that far into the future only to change their minds when the date draws nearer. I will be extremely surprised if this is any different.

 


Not forgetting that the government making the promise is unlikely to be the one that has to implement it.

#46 richardprice

richardprice
  • Member

  • 183 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 17 November 2020 - 22:30

https://www.theguard...-cars-from-2030

 

9 years is not a long time. How can the motorsport world, especially F1, react? Please discuss.

 

In my subjective opinion, electric is not very good for racing at all and if electric does dominate in the future, the motorsport world is doomed. Your thought?

 

Why does it need to react at all?

 

Horse racing is still a massive sport in the UK, despite horses not being allowed on many of Britains roads and there being no accommodation for them as actual transport anywhere in the UK.

 

Motorsport will be the same - an anachronism born out of history and continuing as a sport because people enjoy it.



#47 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 3,095 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 November 2020 - 22:35

I think ICE car racing should continue no matter what. Like horse racing as said above



#48 NewMrMe

NewMrMe
  • Member

  • 293 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 17 November 2020 - 22:43

The horse racing analogy doesn't quite work because that is propped up by the betting industry. Motorsport gets a lot of its financial backing from the motor manufacturers and as that industry moves to electric, that is where that investment will go. In fact that is starting to happen already. Formula E has more manufacturers involved than any other series.

 

That doesn't mean that ICE racing will be dead, but it will need to find a different funding model that isn't dependent on the motor industry.



#49 boomn

boomn
  • Member

  • 679 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 17 November 2020 - 22:46

Good for you mate. It's cool that your favourite racing serie is FE, as I know there always be competitive racing there.

I also don't want to make this thread to be a comparision of this racing series vs that racing series, which one is better, since it would be as pointless as it can be.

I just think that, again, my humble opinion, electric cars do not even make driving interesting, let alone how can they make racing interesting? A basic technique for EV driving is one pedal driving in order to regen. I don't find this technique very exciting at all. It's all about managing expectations really: ahh, I can get used to it, it's not too bad.

Of course, EVs will get better over time. Question is, how much better, to the level that we can intuitively feel this is a good car and we would not care is it an EV or an ICE vehicle anymore, or it would still come down to managing expectations?

A big question for the future indeed.

I'm indifferent to this fight, but I think it is relevant and important to note that really high levels of regen can be akin in force to traditional braking.  Any EV race car that relies heavily on regen braking will need a braking system that allows the driver to do what race car drivers do and modulate the regen braking force vs the surface grip, tire condition, car balance, aero load, braking zone vs corner entry vs mid corner, etc.  And acceleration still needs to be in the drivers ability to modulate for the same reasons.  If race car drivers can do what race car drivers are supposed to do and still have opportunities to shine through skill or bin it through mistakes then I think the racing can still be interesting.  I would even propose that there might be a bigger difference in racing between difference ICE race car series that can have ABS, traction control or BOP than between similar cars which only differ in ICE vs EV


Edited by boomn, 17 November 2020 - 22:50.


#50 NoForumForOldPole

NoForumForOldPole
  • Member

  • 687 posts
  • Joined: July 18

Posted 17 November 2020 - 23:02

**** news for petrolheads, but looking on the bright side, we will be able to buy cheap absolete petrol cars, and race them on the track? Maybe, just maybe, under ban on ICE, petrol based grassroot motorsport will flourish? You cannot drive them fast on the road anyway, with all the blackboxes and cameras in 2030.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 17 November 2020 - 23:03.