117 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

2005. Kimi Raikkonen vs the accursed Mclaren MP4-20 drivetrain....oh....and Alonso I guess.

Edited by ARTGP, 23 November 2020 - 20:48.

[MLC]

1986 for sure. Prost won against the Williams FW11, which was superior all year. The Williams drivers were no slouches either! This was one of those those rare years where you couldn't say the driver simply won because of his car. Alain earned that championship.

[as65p]

1986 for sure. Prost won against the Williams FW11, which was superior all year. The Williams drivers were no slouches either! This was one of those those rare years where you couldn't say the driver simply won because of his car. Alain earned that championship.

It was just one of those seasons when everything fell into place for the well performing underdog with the inferior car. 2003 and 2012 were nearly the same, but then, they just weren't, by a whisker. Nemo just recently made a case for Lauda in 1977 being from the same mould, but I'd really need to dig into those old reports to form my own opinion on that one. At the time I recall viewing it differently, but that might have been influenced by the impression of previous years '75 and '76 when Ferrari was kind of dominant. Maybe in '77 they really weren't that good anymore and Lauda really did a super job. Being only 13 at the time and in love with the Lotus color scheme wouldn't have helped my objectivity...

[KinkyMasta]

2005. Kimi Raikkonen vs the accursed Mclaren MP4-20 drivetrain....oh....and Alonso I guess.

 

If what you said was true, why the other McLaren had way less problems with the drive train that year?

 

He had no mechanical simpathy back then, so most of the curse was self-inflicted.

Edited by KinkyMasta, 24 November 2020 - 07:34.

[shure]

If what you said was true, why the other McLaren had way less problems with the drive train that year?

 

He had no mechanical simpathy back then, so most of the curse was self-inflicted.

Montoya had his fair share of problems, too.

 

Kimi had a brand new engine fail on him in practice.  He then suffered an oil leak at the following race.  Are you really trying to claim these are driver inflicted?  Does he tighten the bolts, too?

 

Kimi's not had a career reputation as a car wrecker.  Do you have any evidence that in 2005 he abused his machinery or are you just making wild guesses?

[Vesuvius]

Montoya had his fair share of problems, too.

Kimi had a brand new engine fail on him in practice. He then suffered an oil leak at the following race. Are you really trying to claim these are driver inflicted? Does he tighten the bolts, too?

Kimi's not had a career reputation as a car wrecker. Do you have any evidence that in 2005 he abused his machinery or are you just making wild guesses?

He is just making it up, Haug, Withmarsh and Newey all have said that Kimi isn't a car wrecker and that they owe him at least two titles.

Car also should have handled Imola curbs, there was a manufacture problems in those parts.

Edited by Vesuvius, 24 November 2020 - 09:28.

[PlayboyRacer]

He is just making it up, Haug, Withmarsh and Newey all have said that Kimi isn't a car wrecker and that they owe him at least two titles.

Owe him two titles? A bit dramatic.

Winning in 2007 makes up for one of them. I also think the right man won in 2003. If anything it was Montoya and Williams not doing enough when needed.

2005 really should have been Raikkonens. His best year imo.

[Anuity]

2005 was a very strange one, but ultimately there was no real title fight.

When in top Form and without problems Kimi was usually racing in his own league. The speed advantage they had was massive. Can’t remember it all, but just wonder if they ever had any on track battle with Alonso that year.

But in the end Alonso also drove great that year and deserved it. Although I personally rate his 2006 title much higher. And that was a much tougher battle. It’s a pity that Michael retired in Suzuka otherwise it would be a cracking last race title battle.
I’m not sure who would have won, but if Alonso still did it would be monumental.

[PayasYouRace]

If what you said was true, why the other McLaren had way less problems with the drive train that year?

He had no mechanical simpathy back then, so most of the curse was self-inflicted.

What was Kimi doing wrong? Pinging the gear change paddle too hard? But 2005 a driver couldn’t break a drivetrain. He was too far removed from the mechanical side of things to be a car breaker.

[absinthedude]

I just call it as I see it. McLaren team members themselves were massively disappointed with Sennas antics at Suzuka 1990. Not sure how, even as a fan, you can defend that. Nothing justifies smashing into a rival like that. Ayrton had that throttle pinned.

Prost was no angel. But there is a line you simply don't cross. Senna started it all with squeezing Alain into the pitwall at Estoril in '88. He crossed the line too many times.

 

Some of us are old enough to remember just how shocking that move at Estoril was. At the time we'd seen nothing like it......it was unimaginable that any racing driver in any category would do such a thing....let alone someone who was becoming a top F1 driver and title contender. It is a damning verdict on F1 today that it seems ordinary now. 

[garoidb]

Some of us are old enough to remember just how shocking that move at Estoril was. At the time we'd seen nothing like it......it was unimaginable that any racing driver in any category would do such a thing....let alone someone who was becoming a top F1 driver and title contender. It is a damning verdict on F1 today that it seems ordinary now. 

 

It is because Senna chose to do it that day that it is ordinary now.

[FTB]

Renault simply played it safe after building a big margin after the first 3 races in 2005. In China when they needed to beat Mclaren to secure WCC, Alonso dominated the weekend. Alonso could have won at Suzuka without the confusion with Klien too. ( He overtook Klien, then let him past because they thought it was illegal but overtook him again - and his first overtake was actually legal so he didn't need to let him past )

 

Kimi also DNF'd in Nurburgring after flat spotting the tyres which caused a suspension failure and Newey attributes the DNF in Imola to him, though Alonso crashed out in Canada and also had a bad weekend in Hungary ( can't remember if the lap 1 contact was his own fault though ). Kimi also had a spin in Monza at race and also stalled(?) his car at the start in Australia IIRC.

From Imola to Interlagos Mclaren was simply in another league in terms of pace.

 

So it is a bit biased to say Kimi should have won 2005. Both drivers drove really well in my opinion, with a only a few errors here or there and they both showed great speed. I think Alonso was better by a slight margin but I'm also biased.

Edited by FTB, 24 November 2020 - 13:20.

[as65p]

Some of us are old enough to remember just how shocking that move at Estoril was. At the time we'd seen nothing like it......it was unimaginable that any racing driver in any category would do such a thing....
 

 

I know it's a cool story many like to cling on to, but... really?

 

There was never, ever any squeezing (with room to spare and ultimately resulting in an allmighty accident nothing)  in any category during all the 90-something years of racing all over the world, before Estoril 1988?

 

Wow.

[Atreiu]

You can literally bang wheels if you're white and speak french.

 

 

 

I refer to Villeneuve of course.

[Risil]

As I understand it may seasoned pros were shocked at the way Villeneuve and Arnoux carried on at the 1979 French GP. Of course the pit wall is where all the people are, so squeezing a rival there is something a bit different.

You had to bump people quite hard to pass at Monaco back in the 1950s and 60s, and there are photos of bent cars to prove it.

[FortiFord]

Renault simply played it safe after building a big margin after the first 3 races in 2005. In China when they needed to beat Mclaren to secure WCC, Alonso dominated the weekend. Alonso could have won at Suzuka without the confusion with Klien too. ( He overtook Klien, then let him past because they thought it was illegal but overtook him again - and his first overtake was actually legal so he didn't need to let him past )

 

Kimi also DNF'd in Nurburgring after flat spotting the tyres which caused a suspension failure and Newey attributes the DNF in Imola to him, though Alonso crashed out in Canada and also had a bad weekend in Hungary ( can't remember if the lap 1 contact was his own fault though ). Kimi also had a spin in Monza at race and also stalled(?) his car at the start in Australia IIRC.

From Imola to Interlagos Mclaren was simply in another league in terms of pace.

 

So it is a bit biased to say Kimi should have won 2005. Both drivers drove really well in my opinion, with a only a few errors here or there and they both showed great speed. I think Alonso was better by a slight margin but I'm also biased.

 

Agree. I'm not sure how having an unreliable car is seen as more unlucky than having a slower car. 

[as65p]

As I understand it may seasoned pros were shocked at the way Villeneuve and Arnoux carried on at the 1979 French GP. Of course the pit wall is where all the people are, so squeezing a rival there is something a bit different.

Short clip. A few notable things:

a) Prost away form the grid squeezes Senna close to the track edge, Senna had two wheels on the white line for a moment.

b) next time, Senna returns the favour, but this time it's the other side where the pit wall is. He also, presumably because of the pitwall, leaves more space than Prost the previous lap

c) listen to Murray and James. Murray as usual is all excited about the overtake as such, and that's it, Hunt calls it F3 tactics but also recognizes that Senna left a cars width. Neither of the two goes "oh my god, never in the history of racing have we seen such a thing!"

[Frank Tuesday]

Lauda in 1976 was the hardest fought, if ultimately unsuccessful, F1 Championship challenge.