70 replies to this topic

[midgrid]

The Tyrrells (Ken and son Bob) left the team prior to the 1998 season starting, ostensibly due to a dispute over whether Verstappen or Rosset should partner Takagi. Here's a contemporary news article that explains the situation.

[BRG]

Is this even relevant? Work out Renault and Mercedes as well then.

You're right.

 

I forgot one.  It should have been Ferrari - Lancia - Ferrari - NART - Ferrari - FIAT  -FIAT Chrysler- Ferrari

[Dunc]

Personally I would have Tyrrell's team lineage going from Tyrrell (-67) to Matra (68-69) to Tyrrell (70-98) to BAR (99-05), etc.

Tyrrell was first a self-standing junior formula team running Matras and other cars too, even entering the F2 cars in a couple of F1 races. Then they became Matra's F1 works team "Matra International" in 68. That's a bit of a similar story as the Enstone team getting renamed Renault in 2002. It wasn't the same team as the works Renault from France in 77-85, but the Enstone team ran Renault the constructor's factory F1 operations 2002-2010 anyway. The distinction between a team and a cobstructor is important. (Ok, so the added confusion is that on 1968 and 69 there was the French Matra team running works Matras too - just treat them as the same constructor, but separate teams!)

And then in 1970 Tyrrell no longer were a Matra factory team but again a privateer outfit called Tyrrell - this time running running customer Marches, until starting to field their own cars later in the year. But anyway, I think the Tyrrell lineage is reasonably clear cut.

The Scuderia Ferrari one is less clear cut though. After its founding in the early 30ies it was an independent privateer team that not even strictly limiting itself to running Alfas at first. But then Alfa quit racing and Ferrari started running the factory GP Alfas, and soon the Ferrari outfit got sorta merged with Alfa, and at some point of the 30ies kinda even renamed to Alfa Romeo, but soon after the almost merger Enzo quit Alfa and began building his own race cars and set up a shop in Maranello. You'd think this leaving Alfa part was the natural start point for team history but Ferrari itself seems very much intent of considering the Alfa years a part of its history too, so go figure.

So I'd go with Ferrari - - > Alfa Romeo - - -> Ferrari. Though I'm sure even Ferrari and Alfa themselves are rather unsure how that period should really be interpreted, which years they were separate entities and which years they were the same...

 

Wasn't there also some kind of Lancia connection to Ferrari in the 1950s?

[noriaki]

Wasn't there also some kind of Lancia connection to Ferrari in the 1950s?

As far as I know, Lancia started their own racing team in the early fifties and in 1954 hired Ascari to drive the new Lancia D50 in F1, finally debuting the car in the last round of the Championship. Things looked promising, but then Ascari died after Monaco 55. The devastated Lancia soon closed up their racing operations and sold the cars on to Ferrari, who started running developed versions of the Lancia D50 in 1956, and won the title as well.

Dont think Lancia the company was ever involved with the running of the Ferrari *team* though, nor were the teams involved with each other while they still existed. The extent of the Lancia involvement was that Scuderia Ferrari just ran rebadged and Ferrari-developed old Lancias for a bit. But to be honest I'm not that versed to this story so there might well be errors to my re-telling of it.

Edited by noriaki, 24 November 2020 - 18:10.

[DeKnyff]

You're right.

 

I forgot one.  It should have been Ferrari - Lancia - Ferrari - NART - Ferrari - FIAT  -FIAT Chrysler- Ferrari

And not a minor collaboration, Ferrari won a World Championship through NART !

[noriaki]

You're right.

I forgot one. It should have been Ferrari - Lancia - Ferrari - NART - Ferrari - FIAT -FIAT Chrysler- Ferrari

Lets not forget about the gloried history of McLaren - - > P4 Racing - - > TAG Group - - -> DaimlerChrysler - - -> Bahraini Investment Group either.

[BRG]

Dont think Lancia the company was ever involved with the running of the Ferrari *team* though, nor were the teams involved with each other while they still existed. The extent of the Lancia involvement was that Scuderia Ferrari just ran rebadged and Ferrari-developed old Lancias for a bit. But to be honest I'm not that versed to this story so there might well be errors to my re-telling of it.

But those beating the Racing Point/Mercedes drum seem to forget about when Ferrari essentially copied a Lancia!

[noriaki]

But those beating the Racing Point/Mercedes drum seem to forget about when Ferrari essentially copied a Lancia!

I don't mind the Racing Point concept myself, but to be fair that was an entirely different age altogether. Only since the early Eighties have you been entirely required to design and build your own unique cars. Prior to that, customer cars (which the Ferraris were more than copies) and effective copies were entirely normal.

[Sterzo]

As far as I know, Lancia started their own racing team in the early fifties and in 1954 hired Ascari to drive the new Lancia D50 in F1, finally debuting the car in the last round of the Championship. Things looked promising, but then Ascari died after Monaco 55. The devastated Lancia soon closed up their racing operations and sold the cars on to Ferrari, who started running developed versions of the Lancia D50 in 1956, and won the title as well.

Dont think Lancia the company was ever involved with the running of the Ferrari *team* though, nor were the teams involved with each other while they still existed. The extent of the Lancia involvement was that Scuderia Ferrari just ran rebadged and Ferrari-developed old Lancias for a bit. But to be honest I'm not that versed to this story so there might well be errors to my re-telling of it.

Well versed or not, you are correct. Lancia were on the verge of bankruptcy, which might be why they pulled out, but Ascari's death is usually cited as at least a contributing factor. The transfer of the brilliantly-designed cars was funded, I believe, by Fiat. They considered the prestige of all Italian cars benefited from Italian success in GP racing.

 

Just to continue the "incest" theme: Vincenzo Lancia worked for Fiat and raced for them in GPs before founding Lancia. The 1955 cars were designed by Vittorio Jano, best known as Alfa Romeo's lead designer for many years.

[Beri]

Well versed or not, you are correct. Lancia were on the verge of bankruptcy, which might be why they pulled out, but Ascari's death is usually cited as at least a contributing factor. The transfer of the brilliantly-designed cars was funded, I believe, by Fiat. They considered the prestige of all Italian cars benefited from Italian success in GP racing.

Just to continue the "incest" theme: Vincenzo Lancia worked for Fiat and raced for them in GPs before founding Lancia. The 1955 cars were designed by Vittorio Jano, best known as Alfa Romeo's lead designer for many years.

So in effect; Ferrari is a team that did rise from the ashes, or at that moment; still burning remains, of Lancia. Which in turn were designed by the most important Alfista of his age. Sounds a lot like the holy grail was thrown at il commendatore and he handsomely took all the successes for it. Looking at it like that, it is nowhere near as impressive as Sir Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Ken Tyrrell or Colin Chapman had to go through to become successful.

Edited by Beri, 24 November 2020 - 23:16.

[Izzyeviel]

chapman, Dennis, Williams etc, they all built a f1 team. Ferrari had to build a f1 team, a business, and have a multi-discipline racing empire. 

[Gareth]

On Mercedes/Tyrrell, it seems worth pointing out that the company that (at least to my knowledge) holds the F1 entry is still the same that was established by Tyrrell in 1964. See also here: https://find-and-upd...ompany/00787446

In a similar vein, if you are doing it by legal entity Racing Point is a fresh start (all the names listed beforehand were entries by the same company - RP was an entry by a different company).

I appreciate there are good arguments why ‘which company’ isn’t the most important factor, but thought I’d mention it as a (potentially) interesting tid bit/quirk in OP’s list.

[Beri]

chapman, Dennis, Williams etc, they all built a f1 team. Ferrari had to build a f1 team, a business, and have a multi-discipline racing empire.

By the looks of it, Ferrari got his hands on a team that would be the equal of Mercedes today, and had to fund racing it by continuing building and selling road cars.
It's impressive none the less. But he was quite fortunate to have it all handed over to him. Hindsight.

[lustigson]

Taking original constructor names, and using the classic sponsor-constructor-engine format, the 2021 entry list would look something like this:

• Petronas Tyrrell Mercedes
• Red Bull Stewart Honda
• BWT Jordan Mercedes
• A Better Tomorrow McLaren Mercedes
• DP World Toleman Renault
• Scuderia Ferrari
• AlphaTauri Minardi Honda
• Orlen Sauber Ferrari
• Haas Dallara Ferrari (I know, this is strictly not right, but it looks kind of cool)
• Sofina Williams Mercedes

[Sterzo]

By the looks of it, Ferrari got his hands on a team that would be the equal of Mercedes today, and had to fund racing it by continuing building and selling road cars.
It's impressive none the less. But he was quite fortunate to have it all handed over to him. Hindsight.

To split a hair, both Alfa Romeo and Lancia were roundly beaten by Mercedes at the time. We shouldn't under-estimate Enzo Ferrari's contribution in setting up his own independent organisation with his own engineers, arranging finance by Count Trossi, and turning Lancia's raw material into regular winners.

[Ivanhoe]

 Taking original constructor names, and using the classic sponsor-constructor-engine format, the 2021 entry list would look something like this:

 

• DP World Toleman Renault  Alpine

 

[lustigson]

 

 Taking original constructor names, and using the classic sponsor-constructor-engine format, the 2021 entry list would look something like this:

 

• DP World Toleman Renault  Alpine

 

 

 

Heh heh! I was wondering where to put Alpine in there, but it certainly ain't the engine manufacturer. In real life, the cars will likely be called Alpine–Renault, so perhaps in the list above it should be Alpine Toleman Renault. 

[noriaki]

So in effect; Ferrari is a team that did rise from the ashes, or at that moment; still burning remains, of Lancia. Which in turn were designed by the most important Alfista of his age. Sounds a lot like the holy grail was thrown at il commendatore and he handsomely took all the successes for it. Looking at it like that, it is nowhere near as impressive as Sir Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Ken Tyrrell or Colin Chapman had to go through to become successful.

Eh that's an over-exaggeration if I've ever seen one. Before 1955, Ferrari had already constructed a car that scared the Alfa Romeo juggernaut off the sport and were already double World Champions, double Le Mans winners, double World Sportscar champions, many time Mille Miglia winners... Whereas Lancia's legacy to them was the young Castellotti who died too soon and and the car that won the 1956 world title.

Yes, undoubtedly the 1956 title was not won with a car of their own doing; no, I don't think Ferrari's long history would look that much different even without the Lancia affair, for there was not that much Lancia left in the late 50's Ferraris anymore at all.

You would really be better off "accusing" Tyrrell for piggybacking off Matra's cars or Dennis/Project 4 for getting a major head start off getting hold off the existing McLaren team...

Edited by noriaki, 25 November 2020 - 10:04.

[DeKnyff]

By the looks of it, Ferrari got his hands on a team that would be the equal of Mercedes today, and had to fund racing it by continuing building and selling road cars.
It's impressive none the less. But he was quite fortunate to have it all handed over to him. Hindsight.

The question is: why was it handed to Enzo Ferrari and not to another random guy walking on the streets of Modena?

[absinthedude]

On Mercedes/Tyrrell, it seems worth pointing out that the company that (at least to my knowledge) holds the F1 entry is still the same that was established by Tyrrell in 1964. See also here: https://find-and-upd...ompany/00787446

 

I do not know if it is still the case, but there were still a few Tyrrell employees at the team when it became Mercedes. In the immediate post-Honda time, Ross Brawn was reluctant to use his own name on the car and seriously considered reverting to Tyrrell. 

 

BTW the old Tyrrell shed where the title wining cars were built still stands and is in use as a storage facility. 

Edited by absinthedude, 25 November 2020 - 12:41.

[Beri]

To split a hair, both Alfa Romeo and Lancia were roundly beaten by Mercedes at the time. We shouldn't under-estimate Enzo Ferrari's contribution in setting up his own independent organisation with his own engineers, arranging finance by Count Trossi, and turning Lancia's raw material into regular winners.

Point taken. And I duly think I have to read a bit (underestimated) more on the early Grand Prix racing era. Will do in a while. When the time is right. When the grass is green. When I have time. When pigs can fly. You'll get my point, need to find time to do so 😉