133 replies to this topic

[raceannouncer2003]

In the 1950s, before Westwood was built, races were run at the Abbotsford airport, about an hour east of Vancouver.  In 2005, we held an "Abbotsford Retrospective."  Several drivers of that era attended.  The gentleman from the airport who hosted us kindly took us around the three runways that formed the triangular shape of the original track, albeit with grass growing up through the cracks.  Here is Tommy Meehan in the Pooper with owner Denny Aker riding shotgun.

 

 

And here's the t-shirt, with cartoon done in period by well known Vancouver cartoonist Len Morris...

 

 

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 28 November 2020 - 06:42.

[john aston]

I don't know how, but I was sent an index by Julian (alias Fuzzi)

 I have an index from Fuzzi and if anybody wants the pdf please PM me

[SamoanAttorney]

Back in 2006 I accompanied the late Brian Laban to Le Mans as Renault were preparing celebrations to mark the centenary of their victory in the first Grand Prix. While most of the public roads used still exist in some form, there is nothing left of the paddock/pits area except these tunnels.

 

 

Renault brought along a contemporary racer, though it competed in the Vanderbilt Cup. Of course Brian had to get into the act as the photo below illustrates. His piece can be seen HERE

 

[Michael Ferner]

That car never ran in the Vanderbilt Cup, a common misconception. It's called a "Vanderbilt Renault" because it was a small run of sporty production cars ordered by Willie Vanderbilt in 1908. Sources differ about how many were built, somewhere between ten and twenty most likely. I have also seen different info about their techncal specifications, but it was definitely a small four-cylinder engine of no more than 60 hp (likely even less), so not at all a competitive proposition for the Vanderbilt Cup, where Lewis Strang raced a 105 hp Grand Prix type Renault and was still only marginally competitive.

[Tim Murray]

As discussed in this earlier thread:

1907 Renault ‘Vanderbilt’

The car in the photo is the well-known ‘Agatha’.

[SamoanAttorney]

Once more TNF's warriors come to the rescue.

 

Thank you for the illumination, I did not have time to reread Brian's prose this morning with other pressing tasks. 

 

Also, this period of competition is not of great interest to me, even if one admires the sheer bravery that was involved.

[Vitesse2]

Global warming?

 

DCN

 

Nah, crap circuit, drowned at birth 

Neither. Much of it is probably spread around the highways of the UK. Tarmac bought the site and extracted more than two million tonnes of sand and gravel from it.

 

The restoration and rehabilitation of the site won an award in 2013: https://www.agg-net....storation-award

[Vitesse2]

In the 1950s, before Westwood was built, races were run at the Abbotsford airport, about an hour east of Vancouver.  In 2005, we held an "Abbotsford Retrospective."  Several drivers of that era attended.  The gentleman from the airport who hosted us kindly took us around the three runways that formed the triangular shape of the original track, albeit with grass growing up through the cracks.  Here is Tommy Meehan in the Pooper with owner Denny Aker riding shotgun.

 

 

And here's the t-shirt, with cartoon done in period by well known Vancouver cartoonist Len Morris...

 

 

Vince H.

O/T My late father did much of his RAF training at Abbotsford in 1945.

[Jim Thurman]

I remember ITV showed the NASCAR WInston Cup in the late 80s....and watching what they said would be the last ever race at Riverside. If memory serves a car ploughed off the track, through a rather rickety brick or concrete barrier and into a spectator enclosure - thankfully the spectators scrambled to safety. Riverside was demolished soon after, with nothing at all remaining. 

 

A lot of myths about Riverside seem to have come from ESPN's telecast of that race, which was rather hyperbolic. They had the bulldozers ready and waiting to move in immediately after the checkered flag to make way for "luxury homes with swimming pools." Hardly. While bulldozers did soon take out a good chunk of the backstretch, a modified circuit at RIR hosted Cal Club events and drivers schools for another year! Beyond that, even after closure, it was more months before the grandstands and bleachers came down and a large amount of turn 9, the start/finish straight, turn 1 and pit road, including the concrete pit wall, were still around for almost another decade!

 

And the homes are hardly luxury. I guess ESPN's Jerry Punch didn't realize how much the cost of a very average suburban home was even in 1988 Southern California.

 

While different housing tracts covers much of the Riverside International Raceway property, the Moreno Valley Mall covers the northern end (turn 6, turn 7A) and there is also some other commercial development.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 29 November 2020 - 04:13.

[raceannouncer2003]

O/T My late father did much of his RAF training at Abbotsford in 1945.

 

Abbotsford International Airport is now the second largest airport on the Lower Mainland of BC.  It also hosts Canada's largest airshow each year.

 

The late former racer John Nissen said:

 

"I do believe that I hold a record of sorts at Abbotsford Airport. I don’t believe anyone will ever break that record. I’m the only one, I think, that has:

1. raced sports cars there 

2. participated in Abbotsford full scale Air Show 

3. participated in Abbotsford Air Show with radio control model airplanes 

Think anyone will ever top that?” 

 

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 29 November 2020 - 06:38.

[john aston]

That part of the circuit is still there and looks very drivable. 

 

 

Using Google earth, you can make out the circuit clearly for Linton on Ouse, same with Catterick but it is close to the A6055 which might cause a problem or two back in the day…

 Rockingham in the UK has now closed forever, I am not sure if they have started to redevelop the site yet. I dread to think how much money was lost with that project.

 Indeed - both were active aerodromes until recently . The A6055 was formerly  the  A1 /Gt North Road and one of the main reasons Catterick was only used briefly was that crowds of people parked on the A 1 to watch the racing , with ensuing chaos. The former RAF Topcliffe is another local venue which is still in use by the Yorkshire Air Ambulance  and until very recently by RAF Tucanos. In our world  it is most famous as a very fast sprint course, with cars such as F5000s being used there . Topcliffe's other claim to fame is that it was the site of a well documented UFO sighting in the Fifties ( on the topic of which may  I recommend 'UFO Drawings from the National Archives'.  It's  both  charming and fascinating ) 

[F1matt]

 Indeed - both were active aerodromes until recently . The A6055 was formerly  the  A1 /Gt North Road and one of the main reasons Catterick was only used briefly was that crowds of people parked on the A 1 to watch the racing , with ensuing chaos. The former RAF Topcliffe is another local venue which is still in use by the Yorkshire Air Ambulance  and until very recently by RAF Tucanos. In our world  it is most famous as a very fast sprint course, with cars such as F5000s being used there . Topcliffe's other claim to fame is that it was the site of a well documented UFO sighting in the Fifties ( on the topic of which may  I recommend 'UFO Drawings from the National Archives'.  It's  both  charming and fascinating ) 

 

 

I am not familiar with RAF Topcliffe, obviously not to be confused with RAF Leeming or RAF Ditchforth which is also near Thirsk? 

[john aston]

Yes , the former RAF Dishforth is down the road from Thirsk . The old A1 -now the A168 - runs parallel to it, about 100yards from the old perimeter track . Now decommissioned , of course , last used for helicopters until about 4 years ago , and would make a great sprint track .   Back in the mid 80s , regular as clockwork, a pair of USAF F111s would briefly and and take off , just as I was driving home from work - I then lived in Rainton, about 2.5 miles away  

[Stephen W]

The first circuit I ever attended was Crystal Palace - a grievous loss - though bits remain.

Another category is wholly intact venues waiting to be revived - Firle Hill Climb - a joyous revival 2015-2019 - and hopefully to return in 2021. More or less as before, if a little overgrown.

 

RGDS RLT

 

You can add Baitings Dam & Durris hillclimbs although you would need a massive budget to restore and modernise both venues.

 

On the subject of Sprint venues a lot of the old airfield venues are still extant and would be relatively easy to resurrect just so long as the RAF were willing to play ball. 

[Sterzo]

I must thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.  The response has been enormous and frankly overwhelming.

As the "Like" button simply isn't powerful enough, allow me to express my appreciation of this "madness in a silken thread."

[DogEarred]

The ‘Ring’ is also almost completely covered in painted graffiti these days.

Won’t do much for grip, especially in der Regen...

[SKL]

Greenwood Raceway, south of Indianola, IA.     I was just getting into an interest in racing when in high school in the mid to late '60's.  Many famous people raced there including Jim Hall and the Chaparrals.  It closed before I had a chance to go to a race.

I moved to Des Moines in 1979 and the track is only 25 or so miles south so I went exploring.   The "track" is still there but I had to dodge a few bulls and a lot of weeds.  During the 80's a few sport car groups would go and try and drive around the track but by then it was better suited for a Jeep...  almost kind of eerie to drive by it.

[BRG]

You can add Baitings Dam & Durris hillclimbs although you would need a massive budget to restore and modernise both venues.

 

On the subject of Sprint venues a lot of the old airfield venues are still extant and would be relatively easy to resurrect just so long as the RAF were willing to play ball. 

More to the point, with the legislation now finally in place in the UK to allow close public road events - already used for a number of rallies - there is huge scope for far better sprint and hillclimb venues.

[Jim Thurman]

Here's a contribution from California, courtesy of the superb site, Tam's Old Race Car site: http://tamsoldracecarsite.net/. The track was/is Vaca Valley Raceway (the oft used name Vacaville, for short) north of San Francisco & just shy of Sacramento. It was an active SCCA track until the end came in 1971, whereupon Sears Point (current name: Sonoma Raceway) took up the slack. Vaca Valley had a road corse, oval & drag strip---& a lake that you could just reach, if you tried hard enough.

 

The odd part is that the property was supposed to be turned into housing, yet nothing, I repeat, nothing has happened to the land since the last road race in 1971. The track is still there, albeit in horrible condition. Seems odd to let it sit, unused for almost 50 years. A lot of big names ran there & spectator attendance was strong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pleased to see someone bring up Vaca Valley. It was doomed by poor pavement, which was such an issue that the SF Region moved their racing back to the abandoned airfield at Cotati for a while. When forced to return to VVR a couple of times, the pavement had deteriorated even further. The owner wasn't interested in the expense of repaving, despite the Region offering to chip in. The last races were held after a closure of Sears Point forced a final return. Over the years, folks looked into reviving the track, but the owner was reportedly uncooperative and wanted a ridiculous sum.

[Jim Thurman]

Didn't we have a thread like this once before? There are several road courses and countless ovals sitting in decay around the U.S.

 

Road courses: the already mentioned Greenwood and Vaca Valley, Hilltop in Louisiana, some parts of Oregon International Raceway are visible, despite much of it being covered by a landfill.

 

There have been a couple of books by Pete Hylton ("Ghost Tracks" and "More Ghost Tracks"), on the remains (as they were at time of publication).

[Bob Riebe]

I am sure many topics have been repeated but. been there-done that,  does not apply to new members who do not know what is here and probably do not want to spend , or not have, hours search archives.

 

I went to track forum trying to find an old post about a sprint car race held at a large Southern speedway and it is not there, cannot even find it on-line any more so , people posting old new stuff is good to me.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 01 December 2020 - 23:39.

[LittleChris]

I think the problem is that we've veered away from Barry's original terms of reference as I read them ( ie discuss individual corners / bends that could be resurrected or not ) onto discussing whole tracks that could or could not.

Edited by LittleChris, 01 December 2020 - 21:46.

[Barry Boor]

That's true, Chris, but it's okay. Threads have a life of their own and must be allowed to 'wander' around on the whim of the members.

 

I'm just delighted that this thread has received such a large amount of interest.  TNF rules!

[Jim Thurman]

I am sure many topics have been repeated but. been there-done that,  does not apply to new members who do not know what is here and probably do not want to spend , or not have, hours search archives.

 

I went to track forum trying to find an old post about a spring car race held at a large Southern speedway and itis not there, cannot even find it on line any more so , people posting old new stuff is good to me.

Well, sure, that forum can be incredibly difficult to search (which isn't to say that this one can't be)

 

1964 IMCA sprint car race at Atlanta Motor Speedway, by any chance?  https://www.trackfor...293#post1916293

[Lee Nicolle]

The Nordschliefe is a toll road where you apy a few euros per lap.  There are compendious terms and conditions posted at the entrancecovering its use which doubtless include zero liability for the Ring!

 

That is the Young Drivers course for teenagers too young to get a licence.  It is part of the Mercedes World empire.  Just as in the 1920s, you would see privileged youngsters at play.

All the signs in the world still do not absolve liability though may limit it.

While the Ring may be a 'toll road' at the very mininum every person in these cars should be wearing at bare mininum long sleeve attire and a helmet. Having seen severe crashes on You Tube the one that stands out was a small convertible that knocked 3 corners off. Killed it totally.

And the driver gets out wearing a T shirt and shorts,, the girlfriend little shorts and a crop top. Both seemed ok,, but very lucky.

I suspect the liabilty insurer would love to see that, especially if there had been a fire or a rollover

[Bob Riebe]

Well, sure, that forum can be incredibly difficult to search (which isn't to say that this one can't be)

 

1964 IMCA sprint car race at Atlanta Motor Speedway, by any chance?  https://www.trackfor...293#post1916293

Thank you very, very, very much.  

I had that page book marked on an old computer but lost it years ago.

It also gives me info on IMCA running paved tracks I could not find as Google and other search engines, are fixated on NASCAR when one searches for stock car information.

I thought I had copied and pasted that info on this site many years ago,   but was not sure. 

Edited by Bob Riebe, 02 December 2020 - 00:05.

[Lee Nicolle]

Another lost track is Pt Wakefield. A very average place that held an AGP. 

There is still a shadow of the track in a paddock, I believe was up for sale/ auction in the last year or three.

[raceannouncer2003]

Didn't we have a thread like this once before? There are several road courses and countless ovals sitting in decay around the U.S.

 

Road courses: the already mentioned Greenwood and Vaca Valley, Hilltop in Louisiana, some parts of Oregon International Raceway are visible, despite much of it being covered by a landfill.

 

There have been a couple of books by Pete Hylton ("Ghost Tracks" and "More Ghost Tracks"), on the remains (as they were at time of publication).

 

Martin Rudow's "Lost Road Courses" (2016) covers Greenwood, Hilltop, and fifteen others.

 

Vince H.

[Stephen W]

More to the point, with the legislation now finally in place in the UK to allow close public road events - already used for a number of rallies - there is huge scope for far better sprint and hillclimb venues.

 

Nimby supporters permitting. 

[BRG]

All the signs in the world still do not absolve liability though may limit it.

While the Ring may be a 'toll road' at the very mininum every person in these cars should be wearing at bare mininum long sleeve attire and a helmet. Having seen severe crashes on You Tube the one that stands out was a small convertible that knocked 3 corners off. Killed it totally.

And the driver gets out wearing a T shirt and shorts,, the girlfriend little shorts and a crop top. Both seemed ok,, but very lucky.

I suspect the liabilty insurer would love to see that, especially if there had been a fire or a rollover

The Nordschliefe is open to the public most days of the week except perhaps deep winter and has been for decades with many dozens of cars lapping it every day.  look at YouTube if you want to see what they get up to.  There is clearly no problem with liability as generally one or two of the numpties manage to stuff their cars or bikes every day.  It is deemed a public road under German regulations, even if you pay a toll.  There is therefore no more issue for liability than there is on a regular autobahn, where you don't sue the state if you crash.

 

Nimby supporters permitting. 

True, & I would have said exactly the same as you, but the evidence so far is surprising with local people at first a little sceptical but usually becoming enthusiastic.  The Tendring-Clacton rally has run three times now and seems to be a popular event in that part of Essex, where admittedly little else ever happens.  There are always some dissenters but once organisers have got the local authorities and emergency services on side, half the battle is won.  

[PZR]

I've visited Fuji Speedway on and off since the late 1980s, and always try to take a walk over to the old 30 Degree banking 1st corner. On my early visits there used to be quite a lot left of it, even the following banked - effectively straight - section, guard rails and a couple of marshalling posts. All quite eerie, and gradually being reclaimed by nature.

 

The track changes and Toyota's big redevelopment meant that more of it got lost, but they've at least made an effort to preserve a section which remains behind the 'Short Circuit'. I was there last year - just myself and the local wildlife - and took some shots:

 

 

It is visible top right corner in this Google Earth image:

 

     

Edited by PZR, 02 December 2020 - 15:22.

[wolf sun]

The ‘Ring’ is also almost completely covered in painted graffiti these days.

Won’t do much for grip, especially in der Regen...

 

...and of course – as are other spots on the Ring – old Brünnchen is gone forever.

[Jim Thurman]

Martin Rudow's "Lost Road Courses" (2016) covers Greenwood, Hilltop, and fifteen others.

 

 

I knew there was another, similar book that came after Hylton's two, but I could not recall it. When I took a look at the nearest automotive specialist book store, I was greatly disappointed and underwhelmed by his Ontario and Riverside chapters.

 

I forget all the tracks Hylton covered in his books, though I recall Austin Raceway Park in Texas is another he wrote of.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 03 December 2020 - 17:44.

[E1pix]

What Don Panoz did to Road Atlanta is awful if not hard to take.

(though OT, his true legacy should be what he did to squelch cancer drugs — see “Burzynski” on YouTube)