42 replies to this topic

[Branislav]

Ferrari now support engine freeze, suggest possibility of ‘converging’ performance

 

https://www.racefans...ng-performance/

 

 

 

FIA definitely read this forum!

[milestone 11]

Ferrari now support engine freeze, suggest possibility of ‘converging’ performance
 
https://www.racefans...ng-performance/
 
 
 
FIA definitely read this forum!

Yeah, after they've caught up.

[Pete_f1]

Ooh, what have the FIA on them!

[FTB]

I mean, why should they accept to ruin their next few years for the sake of Red Bull? Of course they would want a guarantee of catching up. Which is good, because I see more potential in Ferrari than Red Bull for the future. After all, Ferrari challenged Mercedes in 2017-2018, unlike Red Bull. 

Edited by FTB, 27 November 2020 - 18:34.

[masa90]

In a way I agree with this. BUT only if the engines are really equal.

 

Just stupid to spend hundreds, hundreds of millions and just then equal everything.

[MortenF1]

First thing I thought was if this means somehow, that Red Bull has reached an agreement with Honda, to run/take over the PU.

[Requiem84]

I mean, why should they accept to ruin their next few years for the sake of Red Bull? Of course they would want a guarantee of catching up. Which is good, because I see more potential in Ferrari than Red Bull for the future. After all, Ferrari challenged Mercedes in 2017-2018, unlike Red Bull.

I don’t think using those years is a good reference given.. you know what.

[Garndell]

Probably spitting into the wind but I hope Ferrari & Red Bull (Honda) don't get free performance upgrades or Merc hauled back just because they can't engineer (without dubious methods) the PU as well.

[NixxxoN]

If they do so, I hope its totally equal performance tested in a mule if necessary.

 

In the V8 engine freeze era they were supposed to be equal but Renault was slightly better

[masa90]

The mainpoint for me is that why did they allow that ridiculous built in advantage for so long ?? And then had teams spend millions after million just for this?

[vlado]

The mainpoint for me is that why did they allow that ridiculous built in advantage for so long ?? And then had teams spend millions after million just for this?

 

yes it makes no sense from 2020 point of view but in 18/19 maybe they thought someone can actually catch up ? They were wrong lol 

[absinthedude]

I do not quite understand the whole concept that F1 engines should be equal. 

 

Likely Ferrari know they can't legally catch up.

[Astandahl]

As usual the media didn't report this news within the right context. The engine freeze was already planned and agreed by all teams for 2023. Ferrari is accepting to move the freeze to 2022 if the new engine regulations will be introduced in 2025 instead of 2026.

Edited by Astandahl, 27 November 2020 - 21:08.

[pdac]

As usual the media didn't report this news within the right context. The engine freeze was already planned and agreed by all teams for 2023. Ferrari is accepting to move the freeze to 2022 if the new engine regulations will be introduced in 2025 instead of 2026.

 

Yes, this is what I was thinking was the case - it's both of these or none.

Edited by pdac, 27 November 2020 - 21:17.

[Chillimeister]

Probably spitting into the wind but I hope Ferrari & Red Bull (Honda) don't get free performance upgrades or Merc hauled back just because they can't engineer (without dubious methods) the PU as well.

 

Nobody knows for sure what Ferrari were doing with their 'dodgy' PU. It may well have been something to do with harvesting (and then deploying) excess electrical energy outside of the parameters the FIA currently measures, not anything on the ICE part of the PU.

[Branislav]

I just watch on TV that Ferrari found 60 bhp in thermal energy with new motor for 2021.

[TheAviator]

I just watch on TV that Ferrari found 60 bhp in thermal energy with new motor for 2021.

Would not be surprised. Not like Ferrari doesnt know ins and outs of these engines, they just got that rocket engine banned too late + covid to deliver it for this season.

[Rodaknee]

I just watch on TV that Ferrari found 60 bhp in thermal energy with new motor for 2021.

Hot air from Binotto ?

[pdac]

I just watch on TV that Ferrari found 60 bhp in thermal energy with new motor for 2021.

 

I thoroughly believe they have made a big step forward - they would not consider supporting an early freeze unless they had.

[HP]

I do not quite understand the whole concept that F1 engines should be equal. 

 

Likely Ferrari know they can't legally catch up.

They could catch up (Renault too), but that requires a redesign of the engine that probably will need to have the same philosophy as Merc behind it. That will be too expensive, especially with budget cap restrictions falling in place.

 

We've seen at the beginning of the hybrid era that the overall placing of the different parts of the hybrid engine is important.

 

What we've also seen is that Mercedes never rested on the initial success of their engine design and improved it year by year. Other teams couldn't really catch up. Good for Merc, they are to be applauded for that commitment to push boundaries. Bad for F1 however.

 

As a company selling cars, Mercedes strategy is absolutely sound. It just seems to me that the rules around the hybrid engines are too narrow, so that only one configuration is superior to all the others. And when teams start to copy to get close to Merc, there will be issues creeping in of intellectual property, etc. For a true competition the rules should be a bit more flexible IMO. So that manufacturers are encouraged and forced to find different approaches. One way to do that would have been to drop the fuel flow limit. Keep the limit of how much fuel they can use during the race. And even during qualifying.

 

Unfortunately it's too late for changes like that.

 

However, what happened to development tokens? They were to be applied until engines were about the same in power.

Edited by HP, 28 November 2020 - 09:39.

[Requiem84]

There is no intellectual property in F1...

[Nemo1965]

They could catch up (Renault too), but that requires a redesign of the engine that probably will need to have the same philosophy as Merc behind it. That will be too expensive, especially with budget cap restrictions falling in place.

 

We've seen at the beginning of the hybrid era that the overall placing of the different parts of the hybrid engine is important.

 

What we've also seen is that Mercedes never rested on the initial success of their engine design and improved it year by year. Other teams couldn't really catch up. Good for Merc, they are to be applauded for that commitment to push boundaries. Bad for F1 however.

 

As a company selling cars, Mercedes strategy is absolutely sound. It just seems to me that the rules around the hybrid engines are too narrow, so that only one configuration is superior to all the others. And when teams start to copy to get close to Merc, there will be issues creeping in of intellectual property, etc. For a true competition the rules should be a bit more flexible IMO. So that manufacturers are encouraged and forced to find different approaches. One way to do that would have been to drop the fuel flow limit. Keep the limit of how much fuel they can use during the race. And even during qualifying.

 

Unfortunately it's too late for changes like that.

 

However, what happened to development tokens? They were to be applied until engines were about the same in power.

 

I've said it many times and I will say it again: if F1 is REALLY about innovation and the advance of technology, all F1-technology should be open source. My proposal: a F1 team will have to publish any innovation in full on the website on the FIA-website on the Friday before any race-weekend if they want to use that gizmo in qualifying and the race. That way any F1-team can have an advantage one weekend, perhaps a month, but not for years and years.

 

It would also end the whole: is this legal or not legal... if the FIA approves an innovation, it has to be public info for all engineers and they can all copy it.

[Winterapfel]

I've said it many times and I will say it again: if F1 is REALLY about innovation and the advance of technology, all F1-technology should be open source. My proposal: a F1 team will have to publish any innovation in full on the website on the FIA-website on the Friday before any race-weekend if they want to use that gizmo in qualifying and the race. That way any F1-team can have an advantage one weekend, perhaps a month, but not for years and years.

 

It would also end the whole: is this legal or not legal... if the FIA approves an innovation, it has to be public info for all engineers and they can all copy it.

 

Fully support this! Add fully open technical scrutineering, teams allowed to observe. 

[Requiem84]

I've said it many times and I will say it again: if F1 is REALLY about innovation and the advance of technology, all F1-technology should be open source. My proposal: a F1 team will have to publish any innovation in full on the website on the FIA-website on the Friday before any race-weekend if they want to use that gizmo in qualifying and the race. That way any F1-team can have an advantage one weekend, perhaps a month, but not for years and years.

It would also end the whole: is this legal or not legal... if the FIA approves an innovation, it has to be public info for all engineers and they can all copy it.

This has been proposed many times before, but it doesnt work.

Nobody will spend money to develop something others can use the next race. It’s not a good idea.

[Nemo1965]

This has been proposed many times before, but it doesnt work.

Nobody will spend money to develop something others can use the next race. It’s not a good idea.

 

So? That used to be the way how F1 kept the costs low in the past. If an F1-team decided that an idea would be beneficial but the costs would not weigh up against the short term advantage... they would not do it. That is the reason why so many top-teams waited with adapting to turbo's end of the seventies, end of the 80's. They knew they could get the competitive advantage with other, cheaper measures. The moment they were not enough any more...etcetera.

[Requiem84]

So? That used to be the way how F1 kept the costs low in the past. If an F1-team decided that an idea would be beneficial but the costs would not weigh up against the short term advantage... they would not do it. That is the reason why so many top-teams waited with adapting to turbo's end of the seventies, end of the 80's. They knew they could get the competitive advantage with other, cheaper measures. The moment they were not enough any more...etcetera.

What it will do is kill innovation.

Because basically the innovative team is making the costs which other teams will benefit off.

It’s the same reason communism didnt work out in a sustainable way.

[Pimpwerx]

I honestly don't like the idea of an engine freeze, even if that locks in a Merc advantage. I prefer to see the engine suppliers continue to refine their engines. However, I understand cost is a major issue, and Honda leaving really reinforces that. Whatever they decide, I'll keep watching anyway.

[statman]

Hot air from Binotto ?

 

[shure]

This has been proposed many times before, but it doesnt work.

Nobody will spend money to develop something others can use the next race. It’s not a good idea.

It's possible that teams would change their approach, though.  If they have to publish everything then they might be more reluctant to throw bags of money at it just for somebody else to benefit.  Could be self-policing from a financial perspective to a certain extent

[ferrarista]

https://translate.go...LHVZM2pWf5J1XDQ

[Hellenic tifosi]

Just make scrutineering public and open to everyone. Every team can innovate and reap the rewards of their innovation, as others will surely need some time to catch up.

 

At the same time, it will surely be easier to spot potential loophole exploitations and close them much quicker than now.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I've said it many times and I will say it again: if F1 is REALLY about innovation and the advance of technology, all F1-technology should be open source. My proposal: a F1 team will have to publish any innovation in full on the website on the FIA-website on the Friday before any race-weekend if they want to use that gizmo in qualifying and the race. That way any F1-team can have an advantage one weekend, perhaps a month, but not for years and years.

It would also end the whole: is this legal or not legal... if the FIA approves an innovation, it has to be public info for all engineers and they can all copy it.

Just No, why would a team try and research an idea only to give it away for FREE, it makes no business sense!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 28 November 2020 - 15:04.

[pdac]

Just No, why would a team try and research an idea only to give it away for FREE, it makes no business sense!

 

Er, perhaps one race win is worth it. Who knows. Unless you try it you will not know. One thing is for sure, they are not going to spend the bucket-loads of money that they are now, which can only be a good thing. Also, don't forget that if team A comes up with something and team B comes up with something else, then team B benefits from team A's work and vice versa.

[Clatter]

If they do so, I hope its totally equal performance tested in a mule if necessary.

 

In the V8 engine freeze era they were supposed to be equal but Renault was slightly better

 

That depends on what the measure on equal performance is. Renault were down on power and allowed to catch up a bit, but they had other attributes that gave them an edge.

[NixxxoN]

That depends on what the measure on equal performance is. Renault were down on power and allowed to catch up a bit, but they had other attributes that gave them an edge.

That's what I mean, Renault had better driveability or something. Its not only about power figures, its about the whole package, and I think those complex hybrid engines can be really tricky to equal them all

[Requiem84]

We have been there already... remember the famous Barcelona test where the FIA established Merc/Fer/Ren PU’s were within a few tenths?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Er, perhaps one race win is worth it. Who knows. Unless you try it you will not know. One thing is for sure, they are not going to spend the bucket-loads of money that they are now, which can only be a good thing. Also, don't forget that if team A comes up with something and team B comes up with something else, then team B benefits from team A's work and vice versa.

we can agree it would probably stop teams spending big money on ideas - but is that a good idea..?!?.

[pdac]

we can agree it would probably stop teams spending big money on ideas - but is that a good idea..?!?.

 

In my view, yes. The closer they can get to that $40m budget, the better.

Edited by pdac, 28 November 2020 - 17:09.

[AlexPrime]

Make the engines equal and you may have three or even four or five competitive teams. F1 will become fun again.

So won't happen. It must be pure and because of covid, there is no audience anyway.

[Clatter]

Make the engines equal and you may have three or even four or five competitive teams. F1 will become fun again.

So won't happen. It must be pure and because of covid, there is no audience anyway.

 

Of course there's an audience, just not a trackside one (in most locations).

[pdac]

Make the engines equal and you may have three or even four or five competitive teams. F1 will become fun again.

So won't happen. It must be pure and because of covid, there is no audience anyway.

 

I know where you're coming from, but there are other factors involved too (otherwise, why don't we have 3 competitive teams, because right now 3 teams have the supposed best PU)

Edited by pdac, 28 November 2020 - 21:17.

[CountDooku]

Ironic that the cheating team now supports equal engines. Why should they be rewarded with better competitiveness because they cheated? Binotto has no shame and I’m glad Toto called them out on it.

[pdac]

Ironic that the cheating team now supports equal engines. Why should they be rewarded with better competitiveness because they cheated? Binotto has no shame and I’m glad Toto called them out on it.

 

Playing devils advocate here, I think the reason is because they were caught, they were given a punishment (of sorts) and now everyone has drawn a line under it and is just moving on.