37 replies to this topic

[Misk]

 

Feel like this deserves it's own thread as it's slightly been forgotten about in the aftermath of the Grosjean crash. One of the closest calls of this kind of incident I've seen in F1 in the nearly 30 years I've been watching. The guy ran straight out in front of an accelerating F1 car FFS. Anyone who has seen or read about the death of Tom Pryce (probably the most bloody in the whole history of F1), will know just how damn moronic and dangerous this is. Don't these idoits get any training?

Edited by Misk, 29 November 2020 - 19:46.

[PayasYouRace]

I said it in another thread. There should be no reason for a marshal to cross a live track. Safety improvements since 1977 would mean Lando would not be another Tom Pryce, but nothing will stop a marshal crossing a track from becoming another case of the marshal Tom hit. I don't recommend anyone look up that incident, because it is properly gruesome.

[redreni]

I think this thread is awfully disrespectful.

 

People sitting on their armchairs criticising unpaid volunteers for running towards the flames to save a man's life is unedifying.

 

Norris saw and avoided the marshal. That's what's supposed to happen under SC deltas.

[PayasYouRace]

I think this thread is awfully disrespectful.

 

People sitting on their armchairs criticising unpaid volunteers for running towards the flames to save a man's life is unedifying.

 

Norris saw and avoided the marshal. That's what's supposed to happen under SC deltas.

 

No. It isn't disrespectful. Safety personnel, volunteers or paid, should always put their own safety above all else. This marshal wasn't even running to save a life. Perez was not trapped in his car.

[l12mcg]

I think this thread is awfully disrespectful.

People sitting on their armchairs criticising unpaid volunteers for running towards the flames to save a man's life is unedifying.

Norris saw and avoided the marshal. That's what's supposed to happen under SC deltas.

I’d hope this isn’t about criticising the decisions of the marshals but rather criticising the procedures which lead to them doing these things.

You can’t say “what a terrible person he tried to help!” But you can say “why did a fire marshal on the other side of a race track feel in that moment they had no choice but to risk the their own life and the lives of drivers and other marshals by doing this”.

The latter is not disrespectful and is a valid question.

[Misk]

I think this thread is awfully disrespectful.

 

People sitting on their armchairs criticising unpaid volunteers for running towards the flames to save a man's life is unedifying.

 

Norris saw and avoided the marshal. That's what's supposed to happen under SC deltas.

 

With all due respect, trying to save someones life (wasn't Perez clearly about to jump out the car unhurt anyway) by seriously putting your own and another driver's at risk isn't very helpful. 

Edited by Misk, 29 November 2020 - 20:04.

[Misk]

I said it in another thread. There should be no reason for a marshal to cross a live track. Safety improvements since 1977 would mean Lando would not be another Tom Pryce, but nothing will stop a marshal crossing a track from becoming another case of the marshal Tom hit. I don't recommend anyone look up that incident, because it is properly gruesome.

 

Agreed, although that wouldn't be of much good for the marshal in question themselves. And while the halo would probably significantly lower the chances of the driver getting injured in such an accident, I'm not sure it totally eliminates it. It's still a pretty shocking thing to see, I didn't realise how close it was until I watched it back after the race.

[FullOppositeLock]

I’d hope this isn’t about criticising the decisions of the marshals but rather criticising the procedures which lead to them doing these things.

You can’t say “what a terrible person he tried to help!” But you can say “why did a fire marshal on the other side of a race track feel in that moment they had no choice but to risk the their own life and the lives of drivers and other marshals by doing this”.

The latter is not disrespectful and is a valid question.

Not exactly how the opening post is phrased though, is it..?

[noikeee]

Clearly something went very wrong here and needs to be investigated. Maybe a marshall that hadn't been given proper training, or was thinking in an emotionally charged way after Grosjean's crash earlier.

[l12mcg]

Not exactly how the opening post is phrased though, is it..?

No, it is categorically stupid and the guy is an idiot and I do wonder if they get any training...

That doesn’t mean he wasn’t trying to be helpful... And it doesn’t make it disrespectful.

The same reason if you see a crash on a busy motorway you don’t run across live traffic to help... Doing so makes you an idiot regardless of the intention.

[Misk]

Yes, I suspect Grosjean's accident played on their thinking here. Either way there needs to be an investigation and a re-evaluation of the training they get.

[ANF]

I posted this in another thread:
 

I do wonder (and I'm only speculating) if the fire marshal crossed the track as a result of new procedures following the F2 accident in Sochi where it took quite some time for fire marshals to get to Luca Ghiotto's burning car on the other side of the track. After that race, Michael Masi said the fire marshals had to wait until the race was red-flagged. However, in the Portuguese GP four weeks later, fire marshals could be seen crossing the track without a red flag.

In Sochi, the nearest marshal post on drivers' right was 150 metres away from the burning car. There was a marshal post nearby but on the other side of the track.

A couple of videos I found from Sochi (a fire truck with more marshals and extinguishers arrived after the second video ended):
 

Here's a short video that shows the fire marshal (singular?) crossing the track from the marshal post on drivers' left to get to Ghiotto's burning car. https://youtu.be/UvnmNZ9SLaE
This was at least 1:45 minutes after the impact.

And here's a longer video showing Ghiotto walking away from the accident and the medical car. And the single fire marshal. As the camera pans back the fire marshal has left and probably crossed the track. https://ren.tv/news/...ossii-formuly-2

No ambulance or other vehicle than the medical car was to be seen, so I guess Ghiotto walked to the marshal post 150 metres away, the one that Michael Masi wouldn't want to be running from with a fire extinguisher.

Some more details on marshal posts etc: https://forums.autos...11#entry9243000

Edited by ANF, 29 November 2020 - 20:14.

[noikeee]

I wonder if this is related to Covid and the fewer marshall posts.

[Misk]

Thanks for re-posting ANF!

Edited by Misk, 29 November 2020 - 20:14.

[PayasYouRace]

Whenever this happens, I think of Murray Walker's words in this clip. (8:32)

 

 

Don't worry, nobody gets hurt in this video. It's just the normally diplomatic Murray being uncharacteristically forthright.

[PayasYouRace]

I wonder if this is related to Covid and the fewer marshall posts.

 

I think it is.

[absinthedude]

As someone who has seen unexpurgated footage of the Pryce incident, i specifically do not recommend looking it up. But those of us who know what happened know there's  reason why it is forbidden to cross a live track.

 

thinking of Murray, there was another incident where he referred to crossing the track as "streng verboten" and i think he mentioned Pryce.

 

This does need looking into....the marshal's motives and training for example. We can be sure he was trying to help but that was a misjudgement which could have been fatal.

[PayasYouRace]

 

This does need looking into....the marshal's motives and training for example. We can be sure he was trying to help but that was a misjudgement which could have been fatal.

 

Indeed. I wouldn't question the marshal's intentions. He was clearly trying to help. But that doesn't excuse doing something stupid and dangerous to do so and that's where training and presumably instructions from the clerk of the course/race director come in.

[hodgy21]

Reminded me of this one last year:

 

[ANF]

Tom Pryce's fatal accident in short: Tom Pryce and a fire marshal were killed at the 1977 South African GP. Pryce was following another car when two fire marshals crossed the track to attend a burning car. The driver in front narrowly missed them, but one of the marshals was hit by Pryce's car. He was thrown into the air and died as he hit the ground. The fire extinguisher struck Pryce's helmet at 270 km/h and he too was killed. https://en.m.wikiped...Tom_Pryce#Death

[danmills]

 

Feel like this deserves it's own thread as it's slightly been forgotten about in the aftermath of the Grosjean crash. One of the closest calls of this kind of incident I've seen in F1 in the nearly 30 years I've been watching. The guy ran straight out in front of an accelerating F1 car FFS. Anyone who has seen or read about the death of Tom Pryce (probably the most bloody in the whole history of F1), will know just how damn moronic and dangerous this is. Don't these idoits get any training?

 

This was closer than Norris! And two guys to add. 

 

https://youtu.be/ZM20-v0E8yA

[NixxxoN]

Norris needs to calm down a bit, they were on SC and slow speed, and was many meters in front

Edited by NixxxoN, 29 November 2020 - 20:56.

[FirstnameLastname]

The next death on a F1 race track will be a marshal unless they clean up these standards. I’m shocked at how poor it’s been this year, was only a few races back that Lance almost took out two marshals at Imola.

[onemoresolo]

Norris needs to calm down a bit, they were on SC and slow speed, and was many meters in front

I'm fairly sure the safety car hadn't been called at that point.

[ANF]

Norris needs to calm down a bit, they were on SC and slow speed, and was many meters in front

I'm fairly sure the safety car hadn't been called at that point.

Correct. You can see the light panel change colour and switch to SC as Norris approaches the DHL sign.

[PayasYouRace]

Norris needs to calm down a bit, they were on SC and slow speed, and was many meters in front

 

The SC had not been deployed, as seen in the video. Lando was well above typical motorway speeds. Crossing a live racetrack is champion stupid. Don't do it.

[Myrvold]

Norris needs to calm down a bit, they were on SC and slow speed, and was many meters in front

 

If you see when he exits the corner, the guy is already on his way on to the track, while Norris is accelerating in 2nd gear, when Norris has half of the rpm-lights in 3rd, is when the SC/VSC lights comes on. 3 seconds later he passes the guy.

That's much much much closer than needed.

[NixxxoN]

I'm fairly sure the safety car hadn't been called at that point.

 

The SC had not been deployed, as seen in the video. Lando was well above typical motorway speeds. Crossing a live racetrack is champion stupid. Don't do it.

 

If you see when he exits the corner, the guy is already on his way on to the track, while Norris is accelerating in 2nd gear, when Norris has half of the rpm-lights in 3rd, is when the SC/VSC lights comes on. 3 seconds later he passes the guy.

That's much much much closer than needed.

Ok but still was a yellow flag + slow down situation.

[jcbc3]

You realize that 'slow' still means more than 100 km/h?

[Afaf]

FIA needs to have a comprehensive look at marshall procedures before next season. We've seen I think 3 instances just this year of marshalls running around with cars nearby on track, that's far too many and foreshadowing of a preventable accident.

[milestone 11]

Norris needs to calm down a bit, they were on SC and slow speed, and was many meters in front

Hadn't been called at that moment.

[Beri]

https://www.youtube....h?v=IdPEmZGGIUk

Feel like this deserves it's own thread as it's slightly been forgotten about in the aftermath of the Grosjean crash. One of the closest calls of this kind of incident I've seen in F1 in the nearly 30 years I've been watching. The guy ran straight out in front of an accelerating F1 car FFS. Anyone who has seen or read about the death of Tom Pryce (probably the most bloody in the whole history of F1), will know just how damn moronic and dangerous this is. Don't these idoits get any training?

There are plenty of other examples. Most notable Canada 2011
https://www.youtube....h?v=6URo_2XMKHE

And Monaco 2019
https://www.youtube....h?v=Dh37yuJrLhc

But that doesn't mean that they should happen. I don't get it why a fire extinguisher has to be brought over from one side to the other. Certainly when there is a complete paddock behind the armco of the side where Perez parked.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

https://www.youtube....h?v=IdPEmZGGIUk

Feel like this deserves it's own thread as it's slightly been forgotten about in the aftermath of the Grosjean crash. One of the closest calls of this kind of incident I've seen in F1 in the nearly 30 years I've been watching. The guy ran straight out in front of an accelerating F1 car FFS. Anyone who has seen or read about the death of Tom Pryce (probably the most bloody in the whole history of F1), will know just how damn moronic and dangerous this is. Don't these idoits get any training?

He was probably more focused on trying to save Grosjean than his own life?

He ran into a Fire, and not away from it!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 30 November 2020 - 06:54.

[Dhillon]

Running towards an inferno defy all safety standard but that’s how lives are saved.

[Outsider]

He was probably more focused on trying to save Grosjean than his own life?

He ran into a Fire, and not away from it!

oh dear, Grosjean accident was 3 hours before that incident.

[Fisico54]

He was probably more focused on trying to save Grosjean than his own life?

He ran into a Fire, and not away from it!

 

The thread isn't about Grosjean, the marshal ran across the track to put out Perez's car (he was already out of the car)

[Spillage]

Not the first time marshal safety has been a real concern in recent months. F1 needs to tighten up its act or someone is going to end up getting killed.

[Lotusse7en]

I said it in another thread. There should be no reason for a marshal to cross a live track. Safety improvements since 1977 would mean Lando would not be another Tom Pryce, but nothing will stop a marshal crossing a track from becoming another case of the marshal Tom hit. I don't recommend anyone look up that incident, because it is properly gruesome.

Sadly, I watched it live