Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Marshalling - an insider's POV


  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#51 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,897 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 09 December 2020 - 12:11

Thanks for that - I assumed that the teams would prefer them for minor fires as there is no mess to clear up, but they look pretty useless on a proper fire.

 

I guess they might be become more common as we move more towards hybrids/electric in national motor sport.

I wonder if it is something to do with hybrid F1 cars having a lot of electrical charge?  Is CO2 safer than a liquid extinguishant if the car is 'live'?  



Advertisement

#52 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,121 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 December 2020 - 13:00

On lower levels it's necessary because there is not enough money. In my opinion once there are millionaires on track, there should be money to be found to pay the marshals. It wont change unless people stop volunteering for them.

 

Exactly. To those who need help but cannot afford it, volunteers are their heroes. To those who can well afford to pay, volunteers are the lowest-of-the-low servants (they have a hierarchy of respect based on how much a persons fee is).



#53 mistakenplane

mistakenplane
  • Member

  • 46 posts
  • Joined: November 16

Posted 09 December 2020 - 16:50

On lower levels it's necessary because there is not enough money. In my opinion once there are millionaires on track, there should be money to be found to pay the marshals. It wont change unless people stop volunteering for them.

I don't think it is up to the competitors to fund it, per se, rather the organising club. I suppose it would then be funded in increased championship or race entry fees, but either way you'd struggle to find many other sports where important staff are asked to do it for free.



#54 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 09 December 2020 - 17:03

Exactly. To those who need help but cannot afford it, volunteers are their heroes. To those who can well afford to pay, volunteers are the lowest-of-the-low servants (they have a hierarchy of respect based on how much a persons fee is).

 

True - but what the upper echelons probably fail to appreciate is that the experience gained coming up through the lower levels of the sport is what is needed when the 'big one' happens at the bigger meetings.

 

Looking in detail at the reactions of the marshals in the Grosjean incident there were only two people in the area with any fire-fighting experience, the two in black overalls, and from the clothing they were wearing I assume that they may well have been full time firefighters.

 

There were several other persons in the area wearing Course Marshal tabards, but they only appear to be standing around on the periphery af the fire scene.  The one Course Marshal to who joined in the fire fighting appeared to somewhat out of their depth and hesitant to actually get involved - possibly because they were not really wearing suitable clothing for the task - which was probably just as well, as when they did join in, appeared to act in a way that did not really help the situation.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 December 2020 - 17:04.


#55 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,121 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 December 2020 - 17:15

True - but what the upper echelons probably fail to appreciate is that the experience gained coming up through the lower levels of the sport is what is needed when the 'big one' happens at the bigger meetings.

 

Then they would simply not comprehend why they are not being paid handsomely.

 

To be fair, though, as mentioned above, it's down to the circuits really. My understanding of the way it works is that F1 makes a deal with the circuit to host a race. They (F1) expect the circuit to provide the necessaries. So it's up to the circuit to provide the marshals (just like they have to provide the track, the pits, etc.). So, really, the circuits should be paying the marshals (and the cost should be reflected in the negotiated hosting fee). But that's where it all falls over - because the circuits can't organise themselves in order to extract money from F1 - instead they compete against each other to pay F1 the most money, in order to get the gig.



#56 MarshalMike

MarshalMike
  • Member

  • 69 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 31 May 2021 - 21:11

Well for many, if not most, marshalling has resumed.

 

There are still restrictions on us, some organisers still want reduced numbers, many of the older, more experienced marshals have not and will not be returning, marshal numbers in general are down but the demands are greater. What has surprised me is that some organising clubs are not supplying PPE to marshals. Don't get me wrong, like most of us I have my own but not to provide at least sanitiser on posts struck me as mean.

 

Of the first five meetings of the season so far for me, there have been less than half the normal marshals at one, lower than expected at 3 others (one of which was a major British televised event) and the last was the National Hillclimb championship this weekend just gone. In the bottom paddock and assembly, we were only allowed to work in pairs, had to wear facemasks all day, and restrict the numbers of cars being send from paddock to assembly. Sadly the long lay off meant numerous no shows due to travel/bubble restrictions and more than normal mechanical failures, but the marshals at Shepherds Hut did magnificently in dealing with 2 major car destroying accidents after the finish line - in both cases the drivers suffered no major injuries. 

 

Oh, and one pair of overalls seems to have shrunk during the closure, and the zip broke on another....another £190 expenditure coming up.



#57 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,121 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:02

Sorry, but if you lay down in the mud with a sign saying "walk all over me", then that's what some people will do.

 

If you don't like how you are treated and want to change things then you have to, as a unified group, demand that changes are made. You will have to back up those demands by refusing, as a group, to perform duties at events until the message gets across. Whilst you keep turning up, doing the job, and just having a moan about it to like-minded people, then nothing will change.

 

Having said that, if you want to come here and vent your frustration, I'm very interested to hear and understand your plight.


Edited by pdac, 01 June 2021 - 08:04.


#58 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 8,837 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:27

The Gurston covid policies are a bit OTT. It sounds as though their management board is falling apart anyway, so perhaps their covid marshal might be better off getting a job as a parking warden. 



#59 MarshalMike

MarshalMike
  • Member

  • 69 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 01 June 2021 - 15:04

pdac - I don't know where you've found the idea that I was "venting frustration". Nowhere have I said or implied that I was frustrated by anything. I merely stated how I've found the first five meetings that I've attended.



Advertisement

#60 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,121 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 June 2021 - 20:44

pdac - I don't know where you've found the idea that I was "venting frustration". Nowhere have I said or implied that I was frustrated by anything. I merely stated how I've found the first five meetings that I've attended.

 

My mistake. Sorry. I do find it amazing, though, that Marshals put up with begin treated with little respect, or even disdain. I can understand, as individuals, they like the job and feel that they are contributing to the sport they love. But I would have thought that they would have an organisation that would fight to improve their plight and win them the respect they deserve.



#61 WOT

WOT
  • Member

  • 1,701 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 02 June 2021 - 11:15

Following Grosjean's accident, there has been a lot of discussion about the standard of marshalling, so I thought I'd put forward a marshal's point of view.

 

I have been marshalling for many years, and have seen many changes, and not always for the better, Anyway, here we go.

 

First and foremost, marshals are volunteers. As a rule we don't get paid other than a cup of coffee and a programme. Some clubs make a token payment, others offer a discount system; in our case, if we do get said token payment, it goes towards a breakfast and the change goes to whichever one of us has driven. Please note, every club is different but as a rule of thumb, the smaller the club, the more grateful they are to marshals.

 

Our orange overalls are not fireproof, they are flame retardant Proban, a big difference. Most marshals wear the normal single layer; personally I buy 2 layer but they are almost double the cost at £120 rather than £65. And yes, we buy our own equipment. I have gloves for each marshalling role, non slip for flagging, welder's gauntlets for track/incident, Nomex racing gloves for Fire and Incident Officer and thermal gloves for Post Chief - it's hard to write a detailed incident report with cold hands. Gloves range from £5 to £50. A good set of Waterproofs is at least £150 but if you want fire resistant, they are about £500. Footwear again depends on the role: steel toecapped boots for Track/Incident, hiking boots for flagging or Post Chief, Nomex boots for Fire and Incident Officer duties. Again, footwear ranges from £20 to £75.

 

Not only is there the financial commitment, but there is the time commitment. It is true you can do as few meetings as you want, but this my view: I have 2 family members that I marshal with. We do 20 days a year at race meetings organised by our main club. We also do 6 days a year as away days, where we choose a meeting and go there. We do another 5 or 6 days with a secondary club and 3 to 6 meetings at a local circuit for speed events. On top of that we do at least 2 days training a year with various clubs. For those meeting we go away for, it's a day's travelling either side of the meeting, plus a hotel. So that's roughly 40 days a year.

 

Training is how we keep up to date. Sadly it isn't possible to replicate an accident like Grosjean's but fire training is always part of the agenda. The first thing we are taught is not to out yourself in harm's way and the optimum distance and method from which to fight a fire. UK marshal's are graded by Motorsport UK and there is recognised progression scheme. However, it is impossible to tell how anyone will deal or cope with a serious incident regardless of their experience or grading. We are, after all, individuals and human, so anyone can and will make mistakes or errors of judgement in the heat of the moment.

 

Newer marshals are no longer trained to cope with incidents under local yellow flags and many are shocked to be asked to do so. This is where experience and local circuit knowledge comes in when you know how long the next car will take to arrive at the scene, and whether you can get the incident cleared without race control intervention. We no longer have regular teams either. It used to be that you would be with the same people foe many seasons and you get to know what everyone's role is and you can work as a team. The retention of marshals is a problem, so the idea of teams no longer works. And the average age of marshals is rising - in the UK, it is well over 60.

 

The UK is fortunate to have plenty of circuits and thus the opportunity for experience is high but in may Countries this isn't the case, especially for International events. It's also the case that for many high profile events, marshals are viewed as a necessary evil and are expected to do 12-14 hour days. If marshals were to become professionals and paid, where is the money going to come from ? One club I marshal with no longer uses a local circuit as they can't afford it. They would need a full entry just to cover costs. Add in 30 marshals at minimum wage at they would need to raise an additional £3000 and that is just for a sprint. Circuit owners and race organisers very rarely make a substantial profit and often rely upon a single major event to balance costs. Trying to raise an additional £30,000 to £50,000 per race meeting for professional marshals would not be possible. An on those lines, changes to circuit safety also have to be paid for. Most meetings have only a handful of paying customers so it certainly isn't through gate money. It certainly rankles many marshals that security/car park staff get paid whilst marshals don't.

 

The vast majority of marshals give up their time for love of the sport but for those with family commitments it becomes harder and harder to justify the time and expense, so rather than sit behind a keyboard and moan or tar all marshals with the same stick, volunteer your time and come and join us on the bank - you'll find it a lot harder than you think.

 

Hadn't seen this before, thanks for reviving it. You talk of the average age of marshals being around 60, I can understand that. I was 13 when I started flagging in '64. A mate and I were junior members of the AARC and were racing enthusiast lunatics. The Club General Secretary (the boss) organised for my dad (a doctor) to join the club and become a circuit Medical Officer, so we tagged along with dad (not old enough to drive ourselves) and watch the racing from a prime marshal post on the circuit. 
 
We were pretend commentating on the races as they proceeded and the Post Observer reported back to the boss that these "kids" knew their stuff and knew what they were talking about in terms of who was where and who shouldn't be there. The next meeting the boss suggested that the flag marshals at that post should take us under their wing and show us what it was all about. Well.... wasn't I stoked when one of the flaggies said to me "Here mate, grab the blue flag and have a wave, I'll tell you when to hold it or wave it." He didn't get the chance, I'd already picked up on a blue flag situation, and I was hooked from that day on.
 
All the Marshals had arm bands designating their duties and I was one very privileged kid walking around the pits pre race with my "Flag Marshal" armband firmly tied on. We used to get a lunch pack provided that consisted of what the older blokes called "horse meat sandwiches", a couple of pieces of fruit and some juices. I was just thrilled to be there!! Protective clothing? What was that? Never heard of it!! I just wore clothing that would blend into the background so as to not distract the drivers. My flag post was on the inside of the Armco on the first corner of the esses. I kid you not, if I stuck my boot too far under the Armco, it got run over - that close.
 
I can't grasp the notion of marshals not being respected, the drivers were all so appreciative of the job we did. Their respect was immense. There were no red flags or safety cars in my day. There was one occasion where there was an almighty shunt in the esses and I was walking down the middle of the track waving two yellow flags over my head - all the drivers basically stopped and trickled past.
 
At my post we had the Post Observer, flag marshals, a medical officer (dad), an ambulance, a half fire truck with a fire marshal, and a tow truck. Everyone pitched in except the towie - he was the laziest bastard under the sun. We had a car go rear side into the fence and bounce back. I could see the damage it had done to the undercarriage. I had to go and wake the towie up and when he got his truck to the scene I was screaming at him to tow it backwards - pick it up from the rear - but that was too much effort for him so he pulled it from the front - ripped the back end out of the vehicle and spread fluids all over the track - that's my username by the way "TOW it backwards"
 
I continued the love affair until I was about 20-21 when other love affairs took precedence and I ran out of time to give marshalling my full attention. I still look on those days with the fondest of memories.

Edited by WOT, 02 June 2021 - 11:16.


#62 Zoe

Zoe
  • Member

  • 7,721 posts
  • Joined: July 99

Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:51

 

I can't grasp the notion of marshals not being respected, the drivers were all so appreciative of the job we did. Their respect was immense. There were no red flags or safety cars in my day. There was one occasion where there was an almighty shunt in the esses and I was walking down the middle of the track waving two yellow flags over my head - all the drivers basically stopped and trickled past.
 

 

maybe it is an issue of "o tempore o mores". Thinking of how modern-era drivers react on Marshals on the track, or waved yellows, I have the feeling that the time of paying respect to others is gone.



#63 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 21 July 2022 - 14:53

Following Grosjean's accident, there has been a lot of discussion about the standard of marshalling, so I thought I'd put forward a marshal's point of view.

 

.

.

.

 

The UK is fortunate to have plenty of circuits and thus the opportunity for experience is high but in may Countries this isn't the case, especially for International events. It's also the case that for many high profile events, marshals are viewed as a necessary evil and are expected to do 12-14 hour days. If marshals were to become professionals and paid, where is the money going to come from ? One club I marshal with no longer uses a local circuit as they can't afford it. They would need a full entry just to cover costs. Add in 30 marshals at minimum wage at they would need to raise an additional £3000 and that is just for a sprint. Circuit owners and race organisers very rarely make a substantial profit and often rely upon a single major event to balance costs. Trying to raise an additional £30,000 to £50,000 per race meeting for professional marshals would not be possible. An on those lines, changes to circuit safety also have to be paid for. Most meetings have only a handful of paying customers so it certainly isn't through gate money. It certainly rankles many marshals that security/car park staff get paid whilst marshals don't.

 

 

 

As we have just had the almost annual 'marshals are rubbish' thread  Austrian GP - Firefighting and Rescue of Sainz - Racing Comments - The Autosport Forums from the sofa based key-board warriors, I thought it might be appropriate to add the following here regarding marshals 'pay'.

 

Looking at the published timetable for this years Silverstone GP, the scheduled track time was.

 

Fri 8:40 - 20:05 11.5 hrs

Sat 9:55 - 18:45 9 hrs

Sun 8:35 - 1700 8.5 hrs

 

On top of this, marshals are usually required to be on post about 1 hr before track action starts and then often need to remain on post for some time after the last track action is scheduled to finish, so I guess they could be 'working' for at least 32 hrs, which at the UK minimum wage of £9.50 an hour works out at £304 for the weekend (and that is at supermarket 'shelf stacker' rates as opposed to a suitable rate for qualified and licensed marshals). 

 

Given the quoted figure in this weeks MSN comic of 858 for this years Silverstone GP, it would work out at over £260,000 - and that does not include things like employers National Insurance contribution if applicable, nor the cost of actually administration of the pay.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 21 July 2022 - 15:18.


#64 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 17,340 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 21 July 2022 - 16:58

As we have just had the almost annual 'marshals are rubbish' thread  Austrian GP - Firefighting and Rescue of Sainz - Racing Comments - The Autosport Forums from the sofa based key-board warriors, I thought it might be appropriate to add the following here regarding marshals 'pay'.

 

Looking at the published timetable for this years Silverstone GP, the scheduled track time was.

 

Fri 8:40 - 20:05 11.5 hrs

Sat 9:55 - 18:45 9 hrs

Sun 8:35 - 1700 8.5 hrs

 

On top of this, marshals are usually required to be on post about 1 hr before track action starts and then often need to remain on post for some time after the last track action is scheduled to finish, so I guess they could be 'working' for at least 32 hrs, which at the UK minimum wage of £9.50 an hour works out at £304 for the weekend (and that is at supermarket 'shelf stacker' rates as opposed to a suitable rate for qualified and licensed marshals). 

 

Given the quoted figure in this weeks MSN comic of 858 for this years Silverstone GP, it would work out at over £260,000 - and that does not include things like employers National Insurance contribution if applicable, nor the cost of actually administration of the pay.

I´d be more inclined to put my life in the hands of someone committed rather than one solely there to pick up a couple of hundred quid. How's your sofa?



#65 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 21 July 2022 - 17:14

I´d be more inclined to put my life in the hands of someone committed rather than one solely there to pick up a couple of hundred quid. How's your sofa?

 

Please show me where I have said that I thought marshals should be paid.

 

I, along with the vast majority of marshals I have known over the years, realise that club motorsport as we know it would be substantially reduced if marshals were to be paid, as the vast majority of club racers would not be able to afford the increase in entry fees it would necessitate



#66 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 17,340 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 21 July 2022 - 17:23

Please show me where I have said that I thought marshals should be paid.

 

I, along with the vast majority of marshals I have known over the years, realise that club motorsport as we know it would be substantially reduced if marshals were to be paid, as the vast majority of club racers would not be able to afford the increase in entry fees it would necessitate

Why espouse it then, explain the purpose of your post.