Member
Posted 24 February 2021 - 14:09
Whe you get into self certification you are always heading for trouble.
Just look at the Boeing 737-MAX.
I hope you don't live in US, as cars there got safety approval by NHTSA via a self certification process.
Emissions do go under approval, and this works perfectly, just ask VW about their diesels. 
Member
Posted 05 March 2021 - 19:43
Sounds pretty comprehensive.
Member
Member
Posted 05 March 2021 - 20:36
Not one word on how or why "the survival cell was able to pierce the barrier"?
Well, it does mention "the failure of the middle rail of the barrier".
Edited by ANF, 05 March 2021 - 20:38.
Member
Posted 05 March 2021 - 23:58
From the report... This is worrying:
The high voltage Energy Recovery System (ERS) battery was significantly damaged, with some parts of the ERS battery assembly remaining with the powertrain and others remaining attached to the survival cell.
And I'm even more impressed with Alan van der Merwe after reading this:
A comprehensive medical and rescue response to this incident was immediately initiated. The FIA Medical Car arrived within 11 seconds of the incident, a time achieved partly due to the fact a ‘short cut’ was taken to avoid turn 1, demonstrating both local circuit knowledge and pre-planning.
Edited by FLB, 06 March 2021 - 00:00.
Member
Posted 06 March 2021 - 02:23
And I'm even more impressed with Alan van der Merwe after reading this:
I'm not, that is just doing your job.
Obviously, there is a full report lurking somewhere, un-released (at least, no link on that report page).
Lots of lessons to be learned, I am particularly interested in the fitout of the medical car (easy access extinguishers), and the helmets/suits used by Ian Roberts and Van der Merwe. If those two (or their equivalents) are to do what they did, they need better gear - basically what the drivers use (as I described up-thread).
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 08:12
Is it possible to have a glass visor to prevent it from melting as we saw in accident
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 08:50
If you are responding to my post, I'm sure it is. Impact penetration would not be a requirement, but resistance to melting/discolouration would be the priority - an example of where drivers' requirements will differ from marshals'. Overall, marshals (and I include anyone in the medical car in that) should have gear that is as good as the drivers, so they can arrive and help the drivers escape from a burning car. They need to be able to go into the fire and help, not just wait until the driver is more or less out. Full face helmets, balaclavas, three layer suits, gloves etc.
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 10:38
Is it possible to have a glass visor to prevent it from melting as we saw in accident
it wasn't the visor that melted, it was the tear-off strips
Footage of the crash showed Grosjean’s visor appeared opaque after he emerged from the conflagration, suggesting it had been melted by the intense heat. Cohen explained it was actually the tear-off strips which had been affected by the flames.
“In terms of the fire resistance everything behaved normally,” he said. “The visor was perfectly fine.“The only thing that melted were the tear-offs that were stuck on the external side of the visor. That rendered the visor quite opaque, especially on the left side of the helmet when the fire was coming.”
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 10:58
If you are responding to my post, I'm sure it is. Impact penetration would not be a requirement, but resistance to melting/discolouration would be the priority - an example of where drivers' requirements will differ from marshals'. Overall, marshals (and I include anyone in the medical car in that) should have gear that is as good as the drivers, so they can arrive and help the drivers escape from a burning car. They need to be able to go into the fire and help, not just wait until the driver is more or less out. Full face helmets, balaclavas, three layer suits, gloves etc.
Not sure you really understand the role of the track/fire marshals when you suggest this.
There role is to to try to knock down/control the fire for long enough to for the driver to escape if possible or someone with more suitable clothing to get close enough to aid the driver.
On the practical side, I wonder if you would want to stand track side for 8+ hrs a day for 3 days wearing all that gear - plus the inevitable waterproofs over the top, as you do not really want to go close to a fuel fire wearing soggy 
3 layer overalls - they might stop you burning but the likelyhood is that you would steam to death.
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 11:28
I wasn't talking about them, as I made clear in my post. If you wish to comment on my post 1107, please feel free.
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 13:51
If you are responding to my post, I'm sure it is. Impact penetration would not be a requirement, but resistance to melting/discolouration would be the priority - an example of where drivers' requirements will differ from marshals'. Overall, marshals (and I include anyone in the medical car in that) should have gear that is as good as the drivers, so they can arrive and help the drivers escape from a burning car. They need to be able to go into the fire and help, not just wait until the driver is more or less out. Full face helmets, balaclavas, three layer suits, gloves etc.
So, apart from the medical car crew, who are the marshals that you think should have that level of equipment?
As for post 1107.
I agree that the MC crew should have good equipment, but I am not sure that full driver level is really appropriate when the crew would need to be sitting in it for the full race duration in a stationary car.
Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 March 2021 - 13:51.
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 16:59
Not sure you really understand the role of the track/fire marshals when you suggest this.
There role is to to try to knock down/control the fire for long enough to for the driver to escape if possible or someone with more suitable clothing to get close enough to aid the driver.
On the practical side, I wonder if you would want to stand track side for 8+ hrs a day for 3 days wearing all that gear - plus the inevitable waterproofs over the top, as you do not really want to go close to a fuel fire wearing soggy
Sorry, I really don't understand this. It sounds as though you are saying that Fire Marshals are not expected to assist the driver out of a burning car or have a chance of extinguishing a fuel fire, merely that they are expected to stop it from getting worse for a time and trust that the driver is able to extricate themself. In the event that the driver is unconscious or unable to extricate themself, what is the expected course of events? If we are saying that marshals must wait for a fire vehicle with specialist firefighters to arrive, isn't the driver likely to have died in the fire by that point anyway?
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 18:28
Sorry, I really don't understand this. It sounds as though you are saying that Fire Marshals are not expected to assist the driver out of a burning car or have a chance of extinguishing a fuel fire, merely that they are expected to stop it from getting worse for a time and trust that the driver is able to extricate themself. In the event that the driver is unconscious or unable to extricate themself, what is the expected course of events? If we are saying that marshals must wait for a fire vehicle with specialist firefighters to arrive, isn't the driver likely to have died in the fire by that point anyway?
That was not my intention - maybe I did not phrase it well enough.
With the equipment available to a trackside fire marshal the prime aim has to be try and control the fire until help arrives.
It (hopefully) gives the driver time to get themselves out if they can.
As for an an unconsious or injured driver there is probably not a great deal that one or two trackside fire marshals can actually do to extricate the driver, especially with a fire the size of that one.
The marshals will obviously try and help the driver but one of the things that used to emphasised during fire marshal training is that if you get too close to the fire you risk becoming part of the problem rather than the solution.
I guess you could issue all fire marshals with this type of fire suit Materials-Bells-1937-20447.jpg (514×650) (aviationancestry.co.uk) but I am not sure about the practicallity of wearing one of those for a whole GP.
Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 March 2021 - 18:40.
Member
Posted 09 March 2021 - 20:25
So, apart from the medical car crew, who are the marshals that you think should have that level of equipment?
I didn't say that any should, and have no opinion on the wider question. Stop putting words in my mouth.
As for post 1107.
I agree that the MC crew should have good equipment, but I am not sure that full driver level is really appropriate when the crew would need to be sitting in it for the full race duration in a stationary car.
... with the air conditioning on. Last time I looked, that is what the drivers do, they don't just wear the suits for photo ops you know, they are actually sitting in [the car wearing them] for the full race duration.
Yes, I know there are differences, the main ones being the a/c in the medical car, and the contrasting levels of physical activity in the medical and race cars. In short, there appears to me to be no deal breaker to making this change.
Edited by GreenMachine, 09 March 2021 - 21:15.
Member
Posted 10 March 2021 - 15:54
That was not my intention - maybe I did not phrase it well enough.
With the equipment available to a trackside fire marshal the prime aim has to be try and control the fire until help arrives.
It (hopefully) gives the driver time to get themselves out if they can.
As for an an unconsious or injured driver there is probably not a great deal that one or two trackside fire marshals can actually do to extricate the driver, especially with a fire the size of that one.
The marshals will obviously try and help the driver but one of the things that used to emphasised during fire marshal training is that if you get too close to the fire you risk becoming part of the problem rather than the solution.
I guess you could issue all fire marshals with this type of fire suit Materials-Bells-1937-20447.jpg (514×650) (aviationancestry.co.uk) but I am not sure about the practicallity of wearing one of those for a whole GP.
Weren't so-called "silver suits" commonplace in the late 1960s and early 1970s at British circuits?
Member
Posted 10 March 2021 - 22:53
Overall, marshals (and I include anyone in the medical car in that) should have gear that is as good as the drivers, so they can arrive and help the drivers escape from a burning car. They need to be able to go into the fire and help, not just wait until the driver is more or less out. Full face helmets, balaclavas, three layer suits, gloves etc.
That's all well and good to say that, but who do you propose pays for it all ? I can't afford to spend £4-5.5K on new sets of equipment each year as a marshal. Helmets are no good for marshalling as they restrict both sound and vision, and wearing a set of 3 layer nomex overalls for over 8 days on a hot day means you'll be sweating into them. Bear in mind these require specialist cleaning too, so very few marshals can afford this.
It's no good expecting the FIA or the teams to pay - you're lucky to get a cap from a lower level team, let alone anything with a net cost of over £2 - as marshals we've even been refused drinks from teams sponsored by drinks companies !
Member
Posted 11 March 2021 - 05:17
First up, my main focus is the crew of the medical car, as I have repeatedly stated.
Second, do you want me to list out the occasions when inadequately equipped marshals have stood by and let a driver burn to death? This is a situation you believe is appropriate, and want to perpetuate?
Yes, a driver's helmet is probably not the appropriate headgear for the average marshal, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to scheme out a more suitable but still effective arrangement. My three layer suit cost me under well $1k, I have had it it a number of years (I concede it may have lost some effectiveness over that time).
As marshalling generally is not the focus of my interest here, I'll leave it to you to figure out how you are going to be ready to assist the driver of a burning car get out.
(As a driver, I respect and appreciate the volunteer marshals who give their time to enable me to enjoy my sport - more power to you and your colleagues 
)
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Posted 11 March 2021 - 09:47
First up, my main focus is the crew of the medical car, as I have repeatedly stated.
Second, do you want me to list out the occasions when inadequately equipped marshals have stood by and let a driver burn to death? This is a situation you believe is appropriate, and want to perpetuate?
Yes, a driver's helmet is probably not the appropriate headgear for the average marshal, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to scheme out a more suitable but still effective arrangement. My three layer suit cost me under well $1k, I have had it it a number of years (I concede it may have lost some effectiveness over that time).
As marshalling generally is not the focus of my interest here, I'll leave it to you to figure out how you are going to be ready to assist the driver of a burning car get out.
(As a driver, I respect and appreciate the volunteer marshals who give their time to enable me to enjoy my sport - more power to you and your colleagues
Interesting glimpse into the mid-set of a race driver.
Willing to wear the same set of overalls for several years but clamouring for better equipment for marshals (though then claiming that are only really focusing on the medical car crew).
In the Grosjean crash, it was only the fact that it occured during the first lap of the race, and at an early part of the lap, that the medical car crew were able to be present within a short time period.
For the other 98+% of the race they would not have been out on track and the driver would be reliant on actions of the track-side marshals, so maybe you should concentrate you attentions more on that area.
There are of course a couple of easily identified improvements that come to mind.
Maybe the drivers should take greater care to try avoid having accidents and, if they find it really necessary to have an accident, then try and ensure that they have it in a section of the circuit that is easily accessed by an adequate no of marshals.
Is it really necessary for the MC crew to be wearing 3 layer overalls etc? apart from maybe giving the race drivers a little bit more confidence.
In an earlier post you pointed out that the race driver has to endure the overalls for a whole race (max 2 hrs), conveniently forgetting that they can have a nice clean set for the next session and have the opportunity take a shower in the interim.
I somehow doubt that the MC crew has that opportunity, as they are effectivly on duty for the whole time the track is live, including for the support race sessions, and probably just about get time for a quick comfort break in the gaps between the sessions.
Member
Posted 11 March 2021 - 10:47
As marshalling generally is not the focus of my interest here, I'll leave it to you to figure out how you are going to be ready to assist the driver of a burning car get out.
I am neither driver nor marshall, but my understanding is that marshalls do not and should not help the driver out of a burning car. What they do is subdue the fire and then, and only then, assist the driver. Wading into the flames is not the way to save lives.
You make a point about inadequately equipped marshalls standing by helpless. That did used to happen, but the point is they were inadequately equipped to fight the fire, not inadequately equipped to wade into it..
Member
Posted 11 March 2021 - 11:22
Impressed but also slightly skeptical of the rather long list of research avenues this accident investigation has produced. It sounds like about 20 years of work!
Member
Posted 11 March 2021 - 12:35
In the Grosjean crash, it was only the fact that it occured during the first lap of the race, and at an early part of the lap, that the medical car crew were able to be present within a short time period.
Exactly. It was the actions of the crew that attracted my attention, and it was the basis for my comments.
For the other 98+% of the race they would not have been out on track and the driver would be reliant on actions of the track-side marshals, so maybe you should concentrate you attentions more on that area.
Good point, but it was the circumstances of the Grosjean accident that was the subject of this thread. If there are more generally lessons for flag and/or fire marshals, I am sure you will be able to identify them better than I.
There are of course a couple of easily identified improvements that come to mind.
Maybe the drivers should take greater care to try avoid having accidents and, if they find it really necessary to have an accident, then try and ensure that they have it in a section of the circuit that is easily accessed by an adequate no of marshals.
Is it really necessary for the MC crew to be wearing 3 layer overalls etc? apart from maybe giving the race drivers a little bit more confidence.
In an earlier post you pointed out that the race driver has to endure the overalls for a whole race (max 2 hrs), conveniently forgetting that they can have a nice clean set for the next session and have the opportunity take a shower in the interim.
I somehow doubt that the MC crew has that opportunity, as they are effectivly on duty for the whole time the track is live, including for the support race sessions, and probably just about get time for a quick comfort break in the gaps between the sessions.
More good points, I had overlooked the the fact that the MC crew might be on duty all day. Having said that, sitting in an air conditioned car on a hot day, even suited up, is unlikely to be an ordeal beyond endurance.
I am neither driver nor marshall, but my understanding is that marshalls do not and should not help the driver out of a burning car. What they do is subdue the fire and then, and only then, assist the driver. Wading into the flames is not the way to save lives.
You make a point about inadequately equipped marshalls standing by helpless. That did used to happen, but the point is they were inadequately equipped to fight the fire, not inadequately equipped to wade into it..
Thanks for pointing that out. I take the point, but surely the two are functionally similar? In this case the driver was helped out, though the helper did not 'wade into the fire' it was pretty close to that I thought - close enough that he flinched from the heat..
Member
Posted 11 March 2021 - 13:49
I think if drivers want a first-class safety response then they need to cough up the cash to pay for that (or, at least, they need to be the ones to campaign for someone to stump up the cash). Why on earth is a multi-billion dollar operation like F1 reliant on volunteers for anything, let alone for keeping their participants safe and secure?
RC Forum Host
Posted 29 November 2023 - 16:15
@ScarbsTech
It's been exactly 3 years since Romain Grosjean's huge accident in Bahrain.
Member
Posted 29 November 2023 - 16:59
Wow, that would be incredible to see in the flesh.
Member
Posted 29 November 2023 - 21:20
Scary stuff.
Interesting to see the lack of apparent structural damage to the tub, especially the front. This tub punched through between two rows of armco barrier, was subjected to a large intense fire, and yet it looks like a bit of buffing and a coat of paint and they could start rebuilding it ...
Seriously, the designers and F1 safety/technical regs deserve great credit for the life-saving protection they provided for Roman, well beyond the halo which was a key element in his survival.
RC Forum Host
Posted 29 November 2023 - 21:25
Scary stuff.
Interesting to see the lack of apparent structural damage to the tub, especially the front. This tub punched through between two rows of armco barrier, was subjected to a large intense fire, and yet it looks like a bit of buffing and a coat of paint and they could start rebuilding it ...
Seriously, the designers and F1 safety/technical regs deserve great credit for the life-saving protection they provided for Roman, well beyond the halo which was a key element in his survival.
It all held together yet as Scarbs points out (which I didn’t know until today):
”8)Unnoticed at the time, was as the car went nose in & flicked around, the chassis cracked almost all the way around!
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