1416 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Don’t worry this is just an indirect way to discredit Hamilton, Bottas is slow, Russell is slow it’s all the car etc etc

To be fair I'd be more impressed had Bottas got Covid-19 and Russell had matched Hamilton's times. But you know, you can only play what's put in front of you.

[Ultraviolet]

Safe to say now that modern F1 is 100% about the car and the driver has very little, if anything to do with its success.

Indeed, as proven by the fact that Bottas and Lewis have equal numbers of wins and WDCs in their time together at Merc... oh wait, something doesn't quite add up here. Now what can it be?

[Requiem84]

Don’t worry this is just an indirect way to discredit Hamilton, Bottas is slow, Russell is slow it’s all the car etc etc

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

[Clatter]

Merc will prefer Bottas wins to secure second place in the WDC, George is a guest in the Mercedes so I fully expect team orders will be implemented if Mercedes have the one, two podium opportunity.

I don't know if they do have a preference, but I don't think team orders will come into play unless there is a multicar battle at the front and one of them is holding the other up. I doubt Merc will want the bad publicity that would come if Russell were forced to give up a win when they have the positions that count already tied up.

[Risil]

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

Well you have to be reasonable about it. Hamilton's driven good cars, mediocre cars and terrible cars during his career. He's excelled in all of them. The bulk of his record-breaking wins and championship totals have come from excellent cars, but that's natural, isn't it?

[ForzaFormula]

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

Or Russell Might actually be really good and the next great in this next generation. Give him some credit as im sure most of the grid couldn’t have done what he just has.

[w1Y]

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

This is the most pointless argument of all of mankind. Car makes difference.

Of course it does ffs. Are people really trying to argue that cars don't make a difference?

That doesn't mean that what Lewis has achieved isn't any more special. Consistently great, consistently winning and consistently performing when his car isn't quite their that weekend.

You have all quickly wiped that ferrari beast of a PU from you memories.

But thats it isn't it. Just move goal posts all the time.

Did anyone think George wouldn't do well this weekend or are you all desperate to use it as srick to beat Lewis? I mean he has driven the mercs before, he's involved in there junior programme and he has also been racing all year and is race fit. To top it off he is a very talented driver.

The track is also the shortest with minimal corners which means its very difficult to make loads of time.

I know your desperate to wipe Lewis whole career away and I'm sure as soon as he gets near to the end and starts losing you will use that as evidence his whole career was rubbish but I think its time to let go. Downtalking Lewis doesn't make your driver look any better.

[Requiem84]

This is the most pointless argument of all of mankind. Car makes difference.

Of course it does ffs. Are people really trying to argue that cars don't make a difference?

That doesn't mean that what Lewis has achieved isn't any more special. Consistently great, consistently winning and consistently performing when his car isn't quite their that weekend.

You have all quickly wiped that ferrari beast of a PU from you memories.

But thats it isn't it. Just move goal posts all the time.

Did anyone think George wouldn't do well this weekend or are you all desperate to use it as srick to beat Lewis? I mean he has driven the mercs before, he's involved in there junior programme and he has also been racing all year and is race fit. To top it off he is a very talented driver.

The track is also the shortest with minimal corners which means its very difficult to make loads of time.

I know your desperate to wipe Lewis whole career away and I'm sure as soon as he gets near to the end and starts losing you will use that as evidence his whole career was rubbish but I think its time to let go. Downtalking Lewis doesn't make your driver look any better.

Completelyyyyy missing the point there buddy.

[P123]

Safe to say now that modern F1 is 100% about the car and the driver has very little, if anything to do with its success.

 

The car has always been important.  But the likes of Russell routinely putting five or six tenths on his teammate, or Max doing the same kind of negates your statement that the driver doesn't matter.  Russell coming in and missing out by fractions on beating his more established teammate also indicates that the driver does matter.  I would say drivers have less to play with these days, especially as the cars are so good that what were once corners can now be taken flat.  But with small margins that also increases the need for precision.

[gillesfan76]

Cmon guys, Bottas isn't good enough for the 2nd merc. The sooner you realise it the better. Lewis should have proper competition within the team. For the good of F1.

 

What has that got to do with my post? 

[alframsey]

This is a strange situation. Admittedly the car this year is on another level and there is a lot of evidence to prove this, Lewis would have had to **** up big time to have not won the title. Still though Bottas is not doing much to speak about in the same car so clearly Lewis is making a difference. Looking at other seasons though, especially the last three seasons, Merc have not been as far ahead as this season and Lewis beat direct competition in a equally competitive Ferrari in two of those seasons and a outright cheating Ferrari last season, and came out on top against a driver all thought at the time was one of the best on the grid.

 

To say that Lewis has faced zero competition is factually incorrect and desperate.

[gillesfan76]

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

 

Sure, that fits 2014-2016, and 2019 & 2020. But in 2017 and 2018 we saw the driver make the difference.

[TheAviator]

This is a strange situation. Admittedly the car this year is on another level and there is a lot of evidence to prove this, Lewis would have had to **** up big time to have not won the title. Still though Bottas is not doing much to speak about in the same car so clearly Lewis is making a difference. Looking at other seasons though, especially the last three seasons, Merc have not been as far ahead as this season and Lewis beat direct competition in a equally competitive Ferrari in two of those seasons and a outright cheating Ferrari last season, and came out on top against a driver all thought at the time was one of the best on the grid.

To say that Lewis has faced zero competition is factually incorrect and desperate.

Ferrari has not been equally competitive in 17-18. In both of these they had worse reliability (especially in crucial moments), weaker engine (2017) and worse chassis (2018).

It would take alot of luck to win with those cars, but it should have been closer.

[fed up]

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

 

I agree the car makes the difference when the drivers have developed it to the point that it is easy to drive and is consistently ahead of the competition. The care as it is today, is probably as easy as it'll ever be George has shown that. But George is a very good driver - he has won single seater series and has experience of the Mercedes team and F1 in 2020. He is not a rookie.

 

Does the driver make a difference? hell yes. LeClerc did yesterday, as does Max week in week out in the RBR, George in the Williams and Checco in the RP.

 

Now, if you were to pair Valteri and George in the Merc from pre-season testing 2021 for the whole season, my money would not be on either picking up the WDC. The Merc is always a diva from the beginning of the season - it needs a driver that can drive around the issues while they get their act in order. Lewis does that as does Max - the question is - could any driver do it, or are they led by the team?

 

I've used McLaren 2013 and Mercedes 2013 as examples of the influence of Lewis. Paddy indirectly added weight to this argument recently when he said that in Lewis' first drive of their car, they noticed a significant correction of the steering wheel at a corner entry on the telemetry. He commented that their other drivers would have been complaining that the car was undriveable and insisting on understeer to be dial in at the corner, but Lewis didn't even mention it in his debrief.

 

With the really great drivers, it is never just about the car - the car helps for sure, but winning is not just about being quick in a quick car.

[Ultraviolet]

That’s why having a dominant car hasn’t been good for anybody’s reputation ever.

It would have been much better for Hamilton’s reputation if RB/Ferrari would be closer in outright performance and he’d still be winning. Because then people would say:

The cars arent’t far apart, but Hamilton is making the difference.

Now the feeling many have is: ‘Sure Hamilton has been driving strong, but if a new guy in the car can put it on P2 in his first wknd in the car, the car is making the difference’

You know the absolute proof that you are wrong?

 

Because that is exactly what we did have in 2017-18.

[ForzaFormula]

You know the absolute proof that you are wrong?

 

Because that is exactly what we did have in 2017-18.

 

Exactly, he just contradicted his own statement. 

[jcbc3]

Let's leave that discussion in more appropriate threads. For those wanting to talk about the upcoming race please join us here: https://forums.autos...-2020-race-day/