17 replies to this topic

[blueprint2002]

The wheel-driven LSR set by the Summers Brothers’ Goldenrod stood for perhaps longer than any other similar record, but it is not for that reason that I thought of starting this thread.

Like so many of its predecessors, such as the Silver Bullet, Thunderbolt and Challenger, Goldenrod was equipped with multiple engines (four in this case) to provide the necessary power, and, like some of them, four-wheel-drive to reliably transmit that power to the ground, without wheelspin. There is interesting variation, in these and other examples, in the manner of coupling together the engine outputs to achieve this.

Goldenrod has all four engines in line, but not all facing the same way. Counting from the front, the first faces forward, as is usual, but the second faces backward, i.e., with the output at what is now its front end. Similarly with the third and fourth engines. This is so that the combined output from engines 1 & 2 passes through a single gearcase to the driveshaft (propeller shaft) running down the left side of the car, and ultimately to the front and rear drives. Likewise for the combined output from engines 3 & 4.

Now when an engine is turned back-to-front, its rotation is reversed, as far as the vehicle is concerned, and necessary provision must be made, in the engine itself or in the transmission, to obtain the correct direction of rotation for the driving wheels.

I have been wondering how it was done for Goldenrod. Was an extra gearwheel interposed in the drive to the propeller shaft? Or was the direction of rotation of engines 2 and 4 reversed? This latter might have involved the manufacture of “mirror image” crankshafts and camshafts, special bearings with relocated oil holes, changes to pumps and magnetos or distributors, and so on. Formidable tasks, but well within the capabilities of the US automotive industry which built those mighty Hemis anyway.

Or, perhaps, there was yet another way. For instance, engines 2 and 4 might have special crankshafts which provided the output from what is normally the free end.

Anyone know the answers? Thanks in advance.  

 

[ron54]

I’m sure there has been a book published on this very vehicle. I’m too dumb to do a link ...in any case it may be construed as an advert but I’m sure Google would help.

[10kDA]

I seem to recall in period articles about the car that the cranks of the opposing pair of engines drove an idler in the transfer case, matching rotation with the other pair. BTW I have ordered the Goldenrod book, if more details are included I'll pass them on.

[Steve L]

https://goldenrodbook.com/

[blueprint2002]

Thanks all for your responses. Much appreciate the help.   

[Fred.R]

 

 

you might be over thinking it all ? were Hemi V8's available in a marine package, find a Chrysler parts book,  paired engine quite often counter rotated , the change over is not such a big deal , cam shaft and oil pump to suit and maybe the distributor

 

or the other option if a reverse rotation engine is not available put the  crown wheel on the other side of the pinion in the final drive and the direction of rotation is done

 

my 2 best guesses , now i am off to buy the Goldenrod book as a Christmas present to my self and see how good my guesses were

[10kDA]

The engines were standard configuration loaned by Chrysler, and the Summers brothers had to give them back when the project was done.

[D-Type]

Were the four engines dead in line?  Or were the "rearward-facing" engines off set slightly so an additional idler gear could be fitted in.  Or even both engines connected to each other?  "C'est brutal mais ça marche!" and all that.

[Tim Murray]

It doesn’t help with the question, but B Squared posted a nice cutaway of the car by Clarence La Tourette in the cutaways thread:

From a magazine called Modern Rod August, 1965. C.O. LaTourette cutaway of the Summers brothers LSR car "Goldenrod." I remember buying this magazine as a 6-1/2 year old in the little drugstore around the corner from my grandparents place in California. Jim Clark and Parnelli Jones were on the cover in their respective Lotus IndyCars from that years Indianapolis 500. That was all it took for me to spend my 50 cents.

[blueprint2002]

Fred R: Haven't heard of marine versions of the Hemi, but that would certainly provide a ready-made answer.

             Putting the pinion the other side of the crown wheel would suit if only one engine were driving, but there were four in this case.

10kDA: Don't know about standard configuration, but the engines were certainly provided by Chrysler. Variously credited with 600, 650 and 750 bhp each, there was much in them that was not                     stock, including fuel injection. 

D-Type: From the cutaway drawing, and also from numerous photographs on the Hot Rod Magazine website, describing the long-drawn-out restoration of the car, the engines appear to be in one                 line, not offset. That's somewhat puzzling, because it's not easy to see how an additional gearwheel could be interposed to reverse the rotation in one of the pair. However, something                       similar is done with all automotive gearboxes, so as to provide a reverse gear, so it is certainly possible.

Tim Murray: Thanks for posting the cutaway. I'd have done it with my first post, if only I knew how! 

             Gordon Jennings wrote an excellent article about the Summers Brothers in Car & Driver of September 1965, which is worth a read by anyone interested in this subject.

[10kDA]

The engines were standard configuration competition engines, not production car engines. Chrysler had competition-spec engines intended for NASCAR and engines intended for drag racing, and as I understood it, the engines in Goldenrod were drag racing-spec engines, the ones typically seen with two diagonally-positioned 4 barrel carbs. Hilborn built crossram-ish individual stack injection systems for them. The engines were not offset. Inserting an idler for one engine's crank in the transfer case between each pair of engines would not be a problem if the driven gear in the transfer case was large enough diameter. It could easily be a single idler gear or maybe a planetary gearset on one crankshaft of the pair of engines. Hopefully the details are in the book.

[blueprint2002]

The engines were standard configuration competition engines, not production car engines. Chrysler had competition-spec engines intended for NASCAR and engines intended for drag racing, and as I understood it, the engines in Goldenrod were drag racing-spec engines, the ones typically seen with two diagonally-positioned 4 barrel carbs. Hilborn built crossram-ish individual stack injection systems for them. The engines were not offset. Inserting an idler for one engine's crank in the transfer case between each pair of engines would not be a problem if the driven gear in the transfer case was large enough diameter. It could easily be a single idler gear or maybe a planetary gearset on one crankshaft of the pair of engines. Hopefully the details are in the book.

That sounds logical. Goldenrod's short bursts at up to full power, followed by shut down, would have been much nearer the NHRA dragster cycle of operation than the hours at full throttle in the NASCAR 500 mile races.

[10kDA]

I think the biggest difference was that the NASCAR-spec engines were ported and cammed to get best power from the rule-mandated single carb, and the drag-spec engines were optimized for multiple carbs.

[mariner]

I believe the contra rotation was to avoid excessive torque reaction in very narrow track car required to accelerate very hard to reach its target speed  before the measured mile.

 

I may have read this in a magazine but strangely as an accountant  in the mid 70's one of my fellow accountants had a masters in physics from Imperial College and his thesis was on race car aerodynamics ! 

 

He showed me a research paper on Goldenrod which IIRC mentioned the torque reaction issue.

 

In those days race design wages were much lower than finance wages hence his career decision  -  today he might be on £500K per year as celebrity F1 aero guy!

[blueprint2002]

I believe the contra rotation was to avoid excessive torque reaction in very narrow track car required to accelerate very hard to reach its target speed  before the measured mile.

 

That makes a lot of sense. It would also help balance out the gyroscopic torques that might otherwise exert uncontrollable steering moments as the car responded to bumps and dips on the course.  

[Keith Rolleston]

I had the great good fortune to see this car and speak with Bill Summers at the 2000 NSRA Nationals at Knebworth. I attach photo's below. (I hope - I find image posting to this site almost impenetrable)

 

It was the most inspiring home-built car I have seen - hot rodding at its very best, and the brothers' record stood for decades.

 

The cockpit was also terrifying just to look at, never mind get into. It was tiny, claustrophobic, and the steering wheel was bolted into place once the driver was seated. Somewhere in my attic is the Hot Rod Magazine from 1966 that featured this car and the article on it was comprehensive. I will attempt to find it as I'm sure that the o.p. question will be answered.

 

https://i.postimg.cc...v6JV9/Grod1.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc...Ygqy0/Grod3.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc...jS7rW/Grod2.jpg

[blueprint2002]

I had the great good fortune to see this car and speak with Bill Summers at the 2000 NSRA Nationals at Knebworth. I attach photo's below. (I hope - I find image posting to this site almost impenetrable)

 

It was the most inspiring home-built car I have seen - hot rodding at its very best, and the brothers' record stood for decades.

 

 

I haven't had the good fortune to see it, but agree entirely with your views on it and the S Brothers.

[Pullman99]

An LSR car that has always held great interest for me.   I've ordered the book!

 

It was shown in the UK back in 1971 at The Jackie Stewart Speed Show in the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow where I was delighted to see it in the metal.