224 replies to this topic

[messy]

I really think drivers start a ‘decline’ at a certain age in a mental sense rather than losing any actual ability. It often happens at 36-37 not because that’s the point where the reflexes start to go or anything but because at that stage they’ve maybe grown tired of the constant pressure, travelling, lack of family time because they’ve generally had ten-fifteen years in the paddock at that point.

Look at the exceptions, people like Kimi Raikkonen (nice break from 2009-2012, unusual character, disinterest in anything other than driving), Damon Hill (only started at 33, still in the early stages of his career at the age where others were quitting), Michael Schumacher, even.

[PlayboyRacer]

He’s a semi compentent no 2, because where is he when the car isn’t the outright best and Hamilton needs his support?

Above all, he’s not a benchmark.

That's fine. I agree with you here. But what you originally alluded to is straight up nonsense. The two situations aren't comparable whatsoever. Gasly has perhaps skewed things in 2020 by being decent but I'm still sceptical because A) his teammate was mediocre and B) the spotlight was gone and the pressure off.

[Requiem84]

That's fine. I agree with you here. But what you originally alluded to is straight up nonsense. The two situations aren't comparable whatsoever. Gasly has perhaps skewed things in 2020 by being decent but I'm still sceptical because A) his teammate was mediocre and B) the spotlight was gone and the pressure off.

The argument was that Max hasn’t had a benchmark since 2017, that still remains exactly the same for Hamilton since 2017.

[Ivanhoe]

Lewis had a benchmark on Saturdays. On Sundays a little less.

[PlayboyRacer]

The argument was that Max hasn’t had a benchmark since 2017, that still remains exactly the same for Hamilton since 2017.

No sorry you're insistent on making this comparison. It's wrong. Bottas is some sort of benchmark and we have four seasons of evidence that does support that to varying degrees.

Albon and Gasly are not benchmarks period. The fact they were both dropped so quickly says it all. Nowhere near even semi competency for that seat.

[Ivanhoe]

True, but I don’t think anyone claimed those two were real benchmarks.

[PlayboyRacer]

Requiem84 claimed Hamilton, since 2017, has been in the same situation (incompetent teammate) as Verstappen since 2019.

On what planet is that?

[Ivanhoe]

Well a benchmark is not an absolute predefined thing is it? I agree that Bottas has been a far better benchmark than Gasly and Albon. But I don’t think he’s a proper benchmark to validate Lewis’ performance either. I really rate Lewis, but I’m pretty sure most of his WDC’s with Bottas were relatively easy, he had more competition from Vettel than from his own team mate.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 02 January 2021 - 22:36.

[PlayboyRacer]

Well a benchmark is not an absolute predefined thing is it? I agree that Bottas has been a far better benchmark than Gasly and Albon. But I don’t think he’s a proper benchmark to validate Lewis’ performance either.

Generally agree. But the fact is there is a chasm between Bottas' time at Mercedes and Gasly/Albon at Red Bull. Yes they're all "benchmarks" of sorts but that's where the comparison ends. One has been competent and sometimes actually quite good and the other two have lasted 5 minutes. It's an insult to Bottas to be blunt.

[shure]

Don't you mean the last time Mercedes didn't have the outright best car and - more specifically - were actually trailing Ferrari at times?

Bottas has been good. It's as simple as that. You don't go racking up pole positions and winning a handful of races by being crap. Certainly not while your teammate is Lewis Hamilton. He was hired as the perfect number 2 and he's fulfilled that role. Now perhaps if he's started declining... then Mercedes might have a problem if the other teams close up. My hunch is Bottas has started a decline of sorts. But we all know he's there for only another 12 months anyway.

No, I meant exactly what I said, that the last time Merc didn't have the outright best car Bottas didn't look anything like the perfect #2.  He needs a superior car to look good but when you look past the numbers things don't look so rosy.  People have some kind of perception that finishing on the podium must mean that a driver drove well but when you have a car so much faster than the rest how good a drive do you actually have to put in?

 

I disagree it's as simple as that.  I could say the same for how he's not the perfect #2 but what kind of discussion does that promote?  You can't just say "I'm right so there" and expect that to strengthen your case.

 

Bottas has the biggest points gap out of all the team mates on the grid, and that includes Max and Albon.  But just because he finished 2nd he gets a pass, completely disregarding the fact that finishing 2nd is practically guaranteed in the Merc, so just how good does he actually have to drive?  The fact that but for an unfortunate incident in Sakhir Max may well have pipped him to 2nd says it all when the Merc has been by far the better car.

 

This myth that Bottas has been doing enough doesn't really bear scrutiny.  He was out-raced by a complete newcomer to the team, which is pretty embarrassing for him.  You have to wonder just how poorly does he have to drive in order not to be given a free pass, and how much that's even possible when the car makes it so easy for him

[PlayboyRacer]

No, I meant exactly what I said, that the last time Merc didn't have the outright best car Bottas didn't look anything like the perfect #2.

Ok so - like most drivers - he's defined by the car he's driving and his limitations exposed when Mercedes have fallen back. I can agree with that.

Sure not always the "perfect" number 2. Sometimes an ordinary one. But he's still fulfilled the role for 4 seasons and had days where he's been quite good. We've seen this in the past many times anyway so not sure why the vitriol is so strong for Bottas.

Patrese in 1992, Coulthard in 1998-2000, Barrichello in 2000-2004. I don't see much difference with Bottas at Mercedes.

[Marklar]

the further up you are on the grid the bigger the points gap between team mates can be simply because the points gap between P1 and P2 is much bigger than P3 to P4 and so on, that's a complete moot point in any discussion, unless you want to argue that the Williams pair is the most closely matched pair on the grid.

 

As for being "good enough": it depends. Lewis is also not always finishing in the top 2, so to nail him on that is kind of unfair. And that he nearly lost P2 to a generation talent in a inferior car is of course not great, but it's pretty logical if you understand the concept that a driver that always finishes at least P3 whatever he does will naturally have bigger chances to stay close to P2 and pick up the pieces.

 

For a number two Bottas is absolutely fine. That he needs a complete dominant car for it is also a myth: In 2019 he drove a very decent second season half despite the fact that the Merc wasnt dominant anymore, in 2017/2018 he helped Hamilton on multiple occasions despite the fact that a different team had a better/equal car (albeit you can argue now especially in retrospective whether that's anything special against the drivers Ferrari had). If your expectation for being "good enough" is him beating Lewis or challenge him beyond the first few races: Sure, he isnt, but that's not what the teams probably want.

[shure]

Ok so - like most drivers - he's defined by the car he's driving and his limitations exposed when Mercedes have fallen back. I can agree with that.

Sure not always the "perfect" number 2. Sometimes an ordinary one. But he's still fulfilled the role for 4 seasons and had days where he's been quite good. We've seen this in the past many times anyway so not sure why the vitriol is so strong for Bottas.

Patrese in 1992, Coulthard in 1998-2000, Barrichello in 2000-2004. I don't see much difference with Bottas at Mercedes.

I don't really see it as vitriol, more general frustration that he's not getting anything like the maximum performance out of the car.  We see the same kind of discussions with most other teams where one driver is so far behind the other in performance.  It's not unique to Bottas.  And there's probably a little extra frustration from the fact that he's in the only seat that has the potential to make the title fight interesting and he's just a damp squib in that regard.  But this idea that he's doing a good job is by and large a bit of a myth.  The car's doing most of the heavy lifting

[shure]

the further up you are on the grid the bigger the points gap between team mates can be simply because the points gap between P1 and P2 is much bigger than P3 to P4 and so on, that's a complete moot point in any discussion, unless you want to argue that the Williams pair is the most closely matched pair on the grid.

 

As for being "good enough": it depends. Lewis is also not always finishing in the top 2, so to nail him on that is kind of unfair. And that he nearly lost P2 to a generation talent in a inferior car is of course not great, but it's pretty logical if you understand the concept that a driver that always finishes at least P3 whatever he does will naturally have bigger chances to stay close to P2 and pick up the pieces.

 

For a number two Bottas is absolutely fine. That he needs a complete dominant car for it is also a myth: In 2019 he drove a very decent second season half despite the fact that the Merc wasnt dominant anymore, in 2017/2018 he helped Hamilton on multiple occasions despite the fact that a different team had a better/equal car (albeit you can argue now especially in retrospective whether that's anything special against the drivers Ferrari had). If your expectation for being "good enough" is him beating Lewis or challenge him beyond the first few races: Sure, he isnt, but that's not what the teams probably want.

Lewis got 11 wins in 2019, the same as he got in 2020 when he had a car that most have said is the most dominant since 2014.  I don't think that Merc were up against in 2019.  They had clearly the best car then, too.  

 

Bottas seemed to suffer more than anyone when the special PU modes were banned and you could hear him complaining about being unable to overtake.  All 0f a sudden he didn't have his god mode and he didn't look anything special.  He looks fine only because the car makes him look fine.  

 

Beating Lewis would be great of course, although not essential, but he really shouldn't be giving any ground to Max given the equipment he has.  It's fine for Merc now because frankly they barely need his points in the WCC and haven't for a while.  If his job is simply not to rock the boat with Lewis then sure he's doing fine, but remember Kimi didn't rock the boat with Seb either and helped "secure" 2nd for Ferrari every time but there were plenty of regular calls to replace him, too. As I see it the main difference between Kimi at Ferrari and Bottas at Merc is that Kimi never had the car cushion that Bottas enjoys.  And as long as Merc don't need the person in the 2nd seat to do much he'll be fine I guess but when they do eventually have competition that will probably bite them in the butt

[PlayboyRacer]

I don't really see it as vitriol, more general frustration that he's not getting anything like the maximum performance out of the car. We see the same kind of discussions with most other teams where one driver is so far behind the other in And there's probably a little extra frustration from the fact that he's in the only seat that has the potential to make the title fight interesting and he's just a damp squib in that regard.

This is more the actual issue. When Mercedes are well ahead, Bottas isn't capable of challenging Hamilton consistently. When another team has a season (or bunch of races) where they can challenge strongly, nobody really tends to care what Bottas is (or isn't) doing. Because Ferrari or Red Bull are giving Lewis a hard time.

It's just the nature of this sport. As I said before, there are plenty of examples of this situation through history. And it's always strongly highlighted when one team (e.g Ferrari 2001-2002, 2004) is way ahead.

[shure]

This is more the actual issue. When Mercedes are well ahead, Bottas isn't capable of challenging Hamilton consistently. When another team has a season (or bunch of races) where they can challenge strongly, nobody really tends to care what Bottas is (or isn't) doing. Because Ferrari or Red Bull are giving Lewis a hard time.

It's just the nature of this sport. As I said before, there are plenty of examples of this situation through history. And it's always strongly highlighted when one team (e.g Ferrari 2001-2002, 2004) is way ahead.

well, I do agree with you here.  But at the same time you have to wonder how low does the bar have to be for a team that they'd be happy with a driver who leaves so much car potential on the table on such a regular basis just because he doesn't make waves?

[MKSixer]

Mercedes-AMG Petronas Team Objective:  Win WCC and WDC.

 

Mercedes-AMG Petronas Team Success rate since Turbo Hybrid Era:  100%.

 

How some rate the drivers doesn't matter. The only opinion that matters is one, Toto Wolff and Mercedes Board.  Having Lewis as their driver gives them room to have a harmonious team no matter the current level of car performance.  Lewis is a strategic option in himself and gives Mercedes room to explore options other teams don't have.  Options...a by product of great management and relentlessly pursuing excellence. 

[shure]

well of course the only opinions that matter are those of Toto and the Daimler board.  I doubt anyone on here thinks that whatever we discuss will influence the outcome.  Doesn't mean we can't discuss it, though

[GTA]

1) Lewis Hamilton - Absolutely supreme. Made it effortless most weekends. Would like him to be pushed more by Max like Bahrain. Turkey was the drive of the year by any driver.

 

2) Max Verstappen - The only one who kept fighting the Mercs, Always there and a couple of deserved wins. 

 

3) Charles Leclerc - Demon on Saturdays. The Sakhir P4 was the qualifying performance of the year. A few mistakes during races undoubtedly trying to push the car beyond it's capabilities. With a better 2021 engine he can do wonders for the Scuderia. 

 

4) Sergio Perez - Best season in F1 for him which says a lot. He deserved another shot in a top team and gets it. 

 

5) Pierre Gasly - Brilliant throughout and the dark horse of the midfield. 

 

6) Daniel Ricciardo - Drove brilliantly in quite a few races. Was subdued in a few undoubtedly due to the car. Still one of the best in F1. 

 

7) Carlos Sainz - Horrible luck at the beginning of the year and let down by Mclaren with strategies and pitstop errors. Still beat Lando on points which says a lot. He gets his shot at a top team which was his goal since the STR days.

 

8) Valterri Bottas - Pushed Lewis on Saturdays but dropped it bigtime on Sundays. Turkey was the worst drive of the year of all drivers. If he wasn't in that rocketship , would be ranked lower.

 

9) Lando Norris - Expected a bit more in his sophmore season. Was great in the first half but should have been better in the 2nd half.

 

10) George Russell - Tough to rank. Great on Saturdays, worse on Sundays. Showed in Sakhir that anyone can drop in to win in the Merc,

 

Notable mentions :

Nico Hulkenberg - How does this dude not have a drive ? Dropped in and scoring points with no experience. P3 in qualifying in his only full weekend. It's a tragedy. 

Lance Stroll - Was in good form before Covid hit him. 

Nicholas Latifi - Was pretty solid and sometimes better on Sundays compared to his highly rated teammate. Definitely better than most pay drivers

Antonio Giovinazzi - His starts were pure magic and probably saved his drive

 

Strugglers :

Sebastian Vettel - Phoned it in most of the year

Esteban Ocon - He was out for 2019 but boy did he underperform given expectations even considering his reliability

Kimi Raikkonen - Some highs but mostly  lows. With a better Ferrari engine let's see if he can be a bit more consistent

Alex Albon - Not good enough for Red Bull. Silly mistakes in a great car. 

[PlayboyRacer]

well, I do agree with you here. But at the same time you have to wonder how low does the bar have to be for a team that they'd be happy with a driver who leaves so much car potential on the table on such a regular basis just because he doesn't make waves?

Well I'd say Mercedes have seen the writing on the wall early. Bottas has fitted their requirements (for the most part) till now. But the rolling 1 year contracts tell me they've been ready to replace him the moment the situation calls for it. Problem is nobody has sustained a strong enough challenge to force Mercedes' hand. 2019 should have been it but Ferrari screwed it up after a strong 2018. For the most part their car wasn't good enough in race conditions even with that PU.

So Mercedes has been comfortable. Why make a driver change when it's so far unnecessary? I do feel the vibe is changing around that though. I expect Hamilton and Russell for 2022.

[MKSixer]

Well I'd say Mercedes have seen the writing on the wall early. Bottas has fitted their requirements (for the most part) till now. But the rolling 1 year contracts tell me they've been ready to replace him the moment the situation calls for it. Problem is nobody has sustained a strong enough challenge to force Mercedes' hand. 2019 should have been it but Ferrari screwed it up after a strong 2018. For the most part their car wasn't good enough in race conditions even with that PU.

So Mercedes has been comfortable. Why make a driver change when it's so far unnecessary? I do feel the vibe is changing around that though. I expect Hamilton and Russell for 2022.

This is what I would expect and would be fully logical.  A 3 year HAM contract with RUS joining the team in 2022 would provide for the perfect succession.  

[Requiem84]

Requiem84 claimed Hamilton, since 2017, has been in the same situation (incompetent teammate) as Verstappen since 2019.

On what planet is that?

No, that is not what I claimed.

[PlayboyRacer]

Post #187

"Same goes for Hamilton..."

You can elaborate further if you like. But given the post you were replying to, you seem to think that Bottas is a somewhat similar benchmark for Hamilton (implying he isn't one at all) as Gasly and Albon were for Verstappen.

[Requiem84]

Post #187

"Same goes for Hamilton..."

You can elaborate further if you like. But given the post you were replying to, you seem to think that Bottas is a somewhat similar benchmark for Hamilton (implying he isn't one at all) as Gasly and Albon were for Verstappen.

 

Part of the quoted post of Post#187:

 

The last time we knew what any one with a shred of competency other than Max could do in a Red Bull the year was 2018.

.

 

The last time Hamilton had another team mate than Bottas, he lost the WDC (granted, he was the better driver in 2016, but at least Rosberg kept him honest). Bottas has been claimed to be a tough nut to crack and has been used by many people to claim Hamilton has been driving exceptionally, since he has has been Bottas easily and consistently. 

 

This is a incorrect narrative, as Bottas only shows up on Saturdays and is a midfield driver on Sundays. In that respect, he is not a benchmark of how well Hamilton is doing (on Sundays). I have been saying this for a lot longer than 2020, but 2020 confirmed this position. Which is also reflected in the average journalist ratings, the end of year lists, the ratings of people here, basically everywhere. On average Bottas is rated at the lower side of the top 10 F1 drivers. 

 

That is what Bottas is. Trulli on Saturday, Heikki Kovalainen on Sunday. So, the last time we knew what any one with a shred of competency other than Hamilton could do in a Mercedes was 2016. Well, no, as Bahrain 2020 also demonstrated something else. 

[subh]

I’m a bit late with mine, but I went with:

 

1 Hamilton

2 Verstappen

3 Leclerc

4 Pérez

5 Ricciardo

6 Sainz Jr

7 Russell

8 Gasly

9 Norris

10 Bottas