39 replies to this topic

[Louis Mr. F1]

ok, i hope this topic hasn't been discussed recently and lets put aside the MS,RB dispute for a moment.

Senna was the previous F1 dominator

There should be many great races by the Brazilian, and it doesn't have to be one he finished first.




In your mind, which was Senna's best race?

[baddog]

a lot of people will say donington 93 and its tempting.. but the electronics in the mclaren were so amazing in the evil conditions that its hard to know..

Id say monaco 92, holding of mansell like noone else Ive ever seen could have for a great win

Shaun

[doohanOK]

I think Donington 1993 is definitely up there.

What about Portugal 86? (Sorry, forgotten the year he won his first race, was it 85 or 86?)

Also to consider:
-Japan (Suzuka) 1988.
-USA 1990 (battle with Alesi)

regards,
doohanOK.

[LeTurc]

Absolutely Baddog. Thats why i wrote the second sentence in my footer.

[Spaman]

His car control in the wet (spain 92) was pretty impressive even though he would lose it late in the race.

[911]

I think his maiden win in F1 was pretty spectacular - Estoril, 1985. But, for sure there were others:

- Suzuka, '88.
- Jerez, '86.
- Monaco, '92 -> yes, baddog, that was amazing the way he held off Mansell for those last few laps!
- Donington, '93 -> Amazing opening lap, as we all know!
- I've always thought that one of his better races was Suzuka, '89, even though he was DQ'ed. The way he came back to "initially" win the race was awesome.
- Brasil, '91 -> Finishing the race with just one gear (6th) to finally win his home GP was pretty emotional.

911

[MP4/?]

The best???? Monaco '84, but he didn't win it...

[Indian Chief]

Didn't Senna himself say that he thought Estoil '85 was the best of his career?

[senninha]

"I misss one race. My greatest victory was STOLEN by Balestre and FISA (FIA)."

AS after Japan 90, talking about Japan 89.


Personally i love Brazil 91 - 7 laps only on 6th gear was amazing !!! Despite some didn't beleive, on board camera showed everything. Every lap there was an improvement on Senna's pace, the first one was 7 sec less than Patrase and the last one was only 2 sec. Fantasctic.

I like Canada 89 - another rain domination but an engine broke after 1h 58 min of race.

[nsminc]

Donington 1993.

[Bodzolca]

Wet Spa race, don't remember which year.

[lukywill]

Originally posted by doohanOK
I think Donington 1993 is definitely up there.

What about Portugal 86? (Sorry, forgotten the year he won his first race, was it 85 or 86?)

(...)
regards,
doohanOK.

yes estoril 85.
the first one. one of his best. a rainy day.

[magic]

suzuka'89

[Zawed]

Monaco 92 to beat out Mansell.

[sennadog93]

Donington.......no question.

[molive]

Imola 94....

FIghting a young MS in a well balanced Benneton with that "nervous" Williams and still being able to stay ahead until destiny caught up with him....


Really, many memourable races to list. Senna was a genius.

[Sergino]

He was driving awesome at Spa in the wet, 92 or 93. He finished 4th or 5th, but it was excellent.

For me it was 88 at Hockenheim. It was my first full race what Senna won, I was fully conscious being a huge Senna fan. Secondly Hungaroring 1992 watching him live winning the GP ahead of Mansell, who won the WDC on this race.

[Simioni]

Baddog,

I fail to see how eletronics detract from Senna's Donington 93 performance, since his main rivals also benefitted from it. If anything, it enhances it; how did he make up a 2s per lap deficit in the dry and turned into a 2s advantage in the wet in cars that theorically limited in the importance of driving talent?

[Manson]

Had to be Donington. That outside pass on Weidlinger had both my roommate and I yell expecting him to slide off the track he went by so fast. Awesome display in the wet/dry conditions.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Simioni
Baddog,

I fail to see how eletronics detract from Senna's Donington 93 performance, since his main rivals also benefitted from it. If anything, it enhances it; how did he make up a 2s per lap deficit in the dry and turned into a 2s advantage in the wet in cars that theorically limited in the importance of driving talent?

Im not doing the man down.. I merely said I dont rate that fabulous lap as his BEST RACE EVER.. and heres why..

The mclaren was easily in my opinion the most advanced chassis in the sport. Ron Dennis has described it as the best car they ever built, with the most advanced electronics ever seen in formula one (only the engine preventing it from being dominant). many other teams had only very primitive and limited systems (its a myth that everyone had superb electronics). He drove superbly, but it isnt completely clear whether that would have been possible in SUCH a spectacular way if the car hadnt been truly special in those conditions. hence I rate other drives by him even higher.

Thats a long way from saying it wasnt a great drive, dont be so touchy

Shaun

[Simioni]

I wasn't being touchy and I know your initial post wasn't derogatory of Senna, I was just addressing one point that I thought it was wrong. Now you've got me going though.

Jo Ramirez would disagree with you about the quality of that mclaren. The chassis was good but not on the level of williams' nor benetton's. It is known that it was particularly unsuited to fast corners. Ron's pride for the MP4- 8 comes from the fact that it was a technological wonder developed in a very short time. It was full of a variety of gizmos, some of which actually too troublesome for its short gain. The engine might have been its main problem but with the exception of the early and late races Senna was consistently from 1 to 2s slower than Prost in every track, even the less demanding on HPs. Remember Senna's qualifying record against a far more competitive Alain Prost? Only if the fords had a 200 HPs deficit would they be responsible for such discrepancy. I always thought the idea of mclaren having a super chassis in 93 was just a conforting fairy tale for MS fans to feel good about his wins tally against Senna's with the same engine ;)

[baddog]

ron is an MS fan? gosh ;)

anyway I agree the williams was a far better car in all aspects.. though in the very wet conditions the mac tc system seemed to be superb.. But the benetton? isnt the idea that the 93 benetton chassis (as opposed to engine) was better than the mac just a senna fan's excuse to justify the fact ms did remarkably well given benettons lack of grasp on the electronic car rules? most of hteir gadgets were hardly used as they were too unreliable.

Shaun

[magic]

at the end of '93, prost already crowned champ, the mac was peaking.
ron, rightly so, saying that quote after that season was over.
ron was proud, but also bitter that, just when they really had a grasp on active tech, it was banned.

too little, too late.

on the other hand, the best tehno mac ever (up untill '93), was good enough for senna to beat prost in jap and aus'93.
doing so surpassing ferrari's with a record 104th vic for mac ( '93).

ron very 'appy and sad to lose senna.

[Simioni]

Baddog,

As magic pointed out Ron said that after mclaren had brought out several developments in portugal which transformed the car and allowed Senna to score 2 easy wins. They (Senna and Ron) were in a personal feud at the time, and I don't think Ron enjoyed Senna getting all the credit.

As for benetton, if the car was as bad as you and Todd make it out to be than MS' 93 season was his best by far. He challenged the williams on pace even more often than Senna. The eletronics weren't on par with williams' or mclaren's, but they had a superbly balanced chassis, the one which would be developed into the B194 masterpiece. Compare benetton's pace with mclaren's on circuits of high speed corners. Do you think junior Schumacher could outqualify peaky Senna by 1.5s in silverstone and finish over 1 minute ahead at Spa with a slower car? I don't.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Simioni
Baddog,

As magic pointed out Ron said that after mclaren had brought out several developments in portugal which transformed the car and allowed Senna to score 2 easy wins. They (Senna and Ron) were in a personal feud at the time, and I don't think Ron enjoyed Senna getting all the credit.

As for benetton, if the car was as bad as you and Todd make it out to be than MS' 93 season was his best by far. He challenged the williams on pace even more often than Senna. The eletronics weren't on par with williams' or mclaren's, but they had a superbly balanced chassis, the one which would be developed into the B194 masterpiece. Compare benetton's pace with mclaren's on circuits of high speed corners. Do you think junior Schumacher could outqualify peaky Senna by 1.5s in silverstone and finish over 1 minute ahead at Spa with a slower car? I don't.

indeed the benetton chassis was good in some areas, and their engine WAS better for most of the time (a BIG factor on those quick circuits). we were discussing donington park though, where power was useless and balance was a lot less important than traction control etc..

Shaun

[Simioni]

Actually Senna got the same engines as benetton precisely from silverstone onwards. Ms didn't have TC at donington but he wasn't Senna's main rival, the williams were. Their TC wasn't any better than mclaren's.

[Spaman]

Originally posted by Simioni


I always thought the idea of mclaren having a super chassis in 93 was just a conforting fairy tale for MS fans to feel good about his wins tally against Senna's with the same engine ;)

What wins, only 1 win for MS in 93 at estoril and Sennas engine expired early on in that event.

As far as a win tally for the 93 season between the two:

AS 6 wins
MS 1 win.

[arcwulf7]

I have trouble sorting Senna's races out (but not Senna). I'll put in a plug for Estoril 85, JPS Lotus, as some type of historical significance.

[JPMCrew]

About Donnington, Senna himself regarded it as a race won more by the electronics of the car than by the driver himself. Does anyone have the exact quote?

[scokim]

Monaco in the Toleman...reeling in Prost.
or Wet Donnington.

Overall, he was awesome whenever he races.

[senninha]

I almost sure people try to down Senna's victory at Donnignton, despite ridiculous, almost sure they didn't see the race!

Besides, the best first lap ever, during the race Senna did 7 (!!) pit-stops. Run with on rain, and the opposite, with a lot of guts. Prost, afraid of using slick tyres on rain did 9 pit-stops...

And was nice to see Barichello (his 3th race), in an old fashioned car with a weak engine, overtaking on MS on the first lap.

At that time it was possible. Jean Todt wasn't at Jordan !

[baddog]

Originally posted by senninha
I almost sure people try to down Senna's victory at Donnignton, despite ridiculous, almost sure they didn't see the race!

Besides, the best first lap ever, during the race Senna did 7 (!!) pit-stops. Run with on rain, and the opposite, with a lot of guts. Prost, afraid of using slick tyres on rain did 9 pit-stops...

And was nice to see Barichello (his 3th race), in an old fashioned car with a weak engine, overtaking on MS on the first lap.

At that time it was possible. Jean Todt wasn't at Jordan !

well I guess you can only be talking about me, as I'm the one who dared to consider donington possibly not to be sennas greatest drive. so Ill repeat myself for the hard of understanding.

I THINK DONINGTON WAS A GREAT DRIVE BY AYRTON SENNA.

I also think it was perhaps made to look even better by his car that day, and that in other races he drove more unquestionably great drives.

You cant just demand that everyone agree that everything ayrton ever did was the greatest thing anyone could ever have done and should never be discussed without prefacing it with that.

Shaun

[jma57944]

Donnington.
Senna blowing Prost away while on slicks, Prost on wets, jumped out of my chair and spilled coffee all over.

[senninha]

Originally posted by baddog


well I guess you can only be talking about me, as I'm the one who dared to consider donington possibly not to be sennas greatest drive. so Ill repeat myself for the hard of understanding.

I THINK DONINGTON WAS A GREAT DRIVE BY AYRTON SENNA.

I also think it was perhaps made to look even better by his car that day, and that in other races he drove more unquestionably great drives.

You cant just demand that everyone agree that everything ayrton ever did was the greatest thing anyone could ever have done and should never be discussed without prefacing it with that.

Shaun

Shaun,

First: if you think i'm rude, you have to give a credit due my poor english. I can't find euphemisms, trying to explain my points. Anyway, i apologize if i hurted you someway.

Second: this thead was opened with a purpose of saying something good about Senna and some posters only have bad things to say. I think it's better keep quiet.

Third: Some fans thinks the world turns around his idol. It's wrong. Sorry, but MS was nothing serious to Senna until 94. MS had no role at Donington race. So, stop to try to compare MS's car with Senna's. Why don't you compare MS's car with RB's car on that time? Can you put down RB's race too? Senna's battle was with Williams, MS was just another driver...

Cheers,

[baddog]

Ive just reread the thread and noone in this entire thread said anything bad about Senna whatsoever. Noone brought up MS in comparison to him apart from a couple of people who brought schumacher up to criticise schumacher which was indeed completely off topic. you must have imagined it or just assumed it would happen

Shaun

[senninha]

I'm not "accusing" you of doing it on this thread. I talked in generally : "some people"

But i'm here for more than 2 years and know very well some posters opinions.

[baddog]

Originally posted by senninha
I'm not "accusing" you of doing it on this thread. I talked in generally : "some people"

But i'm here for more than 2 years and know very well some posters opinions.

you said this thread was started to say good things and some people only had bad things to say.. but they didnt, it isnt true, everyone has been most respectful and focussed on the positive only, just what you wanted, so whats the complaint?

Shaun

[magic]

we all can relax.
senna himself rated estoril'85 higher than donington'93.

why?

rookie debutwin with turbo in wet vs tombola race in which tactics also played a part.


his first lap though was and maybe is the best single lap ever.
btw he made ms look ...stupid?

[312 PB]

What's the ****ing point in arguing about what are obviously opinions?

[magic]

312 PB 
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What's the ****ing point in arguing about what are obviously opinions?
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hmmm....have a guess?