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Handicap races


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#1 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 09:42

When was the last "proper" handicap race when cars set off at intervals are calculated by the handicapper? Presumably VSCC or BOC? I can also remember group handicap races where groups of cars were set off together at intervals and of course when there was a good mix of cars on say the Silverstone Club circuit, credit laps were involved.

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#2 opplock

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 09:52

I watched a VSCC handicap race at Brands Hatch in August last year. I assume they will continue to run them in future.  



#3 Allan Lupton

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 10:50

As a retired Handicapper I should know but don't.

What I can say is that around 20 years ago the old-style mixed entry at club race meetings had been reduced as more categories or specific cars got their own racing series. That led to us winding up the Eight Clubs which had existed for 50+ years to run allcomers' races, both handicap and mixed scratch races, for whichever cars and drivers were entered.

The one-make clubs such as Bentley DC and MGCC as well as VSCC have to offer races which cater for for all their members so the handicap race should continue with them.

I am in favour of the staggered-start handicap race and believe that most competitors prefer it to the "calculated handicap" which is run as a scratch race with time benefits being used to modify the results.



#4 pete53

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 11:37

Good question. The BARC were once famous for their handicap races at the end of their club meetings (particularly at Goodwood) , but they had pretty well died out by the end of the 1960s if I remember correctly. In the first couple of Goodwood Revivals in 1998 and 1999 a couple of handicap races were run at the end of the day which were, I think, open to cars finishing in top positions in their respective races. However they didn't prove very popular with a lot of contestants declining the opportunity to run. A cursory glance at some Autosports of the early 70s shows an absence of such races, although I am sure VSCC meetings still included handicap events, and as Allan above suggests, one-make club meetings too.



#5 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 11:53

As a regular at MGCC meetings I am sure they haven't run a "proper" handicap race this century.  The same with BOC, I think they have had "sealed" handicap races bout not with staggered starts.



#6 wheadon1985

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 13:29

We at BARC are planning on running a few more Handicap races for the Classic Touring Cars in 2021 onwards. We had a dip the toe in the water meeting at Thruxton late 2020 and it was well populated. What I enjoyed the most was seeing drivers who wouldn't normally be anywhere near the front in podium positions for a change and we had lots of happy faces leaving on the Saturday afternoon.
Results - www.tsl-timing.com/file/?f=BARC/2020/204421t66.pdf

Edited by wheadon1985, 17 December 2020 - 19:28.


#7 bsc

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 13:31

When was the last "proper" handicap race when cars set off at intervals are calculated by the handicapper? 

'Proper' handicap races are a regular feature of VSCC meetings - and presumably will continue to be. Bentley Drivers Club also continue to run handicap races for both Bentleys and other Closed Wheel Allcomers. The Bentley race is something of an anomaly as the race starts from the pitlane rather than the startline and therefore removes the need for credit and debit laps. Their allcomers race starts from the grid and has, where necessary, credit and debit laps. The 750MC also organise the occasional handicap race for the Armed Forces Race Challenge (albeit that championship didn't run in 2020) and the Historic 750 Trophy.

 

Therefore, the 750MC's most recent 'proper' handicap race took place on the 17 October 2020 at Snetterton at the 750MC meeting. For the record, Simon Gallon (Austin 7) won from Stuart Rose (also Austin 7). The winning margin was, interestingly, 40.6 seconds.

 

However, I think the BARC meeting at Thruxton took place a week or so later.


Edited by bsc, 17 December 2020 - 13:33.


#8 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 14:28

The final MGCC one was in 1995.   I must admit to not remembering any at VSCC or BOC meetings in recent years. 



#9 RA Historian

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 16:45

Road America ran two Handicap races in the 1970s. The first was for sports cars, and was in August, 1975. It was for 252 miles and the cars were released on the basis of a handicap calculation.. There were five groups. The first of course was scratch and was for largely production cars. The last was for the big bangers, Group 7 Can Am cars. They started, as I recall, seven laps (28 miles) behind the first group. 

 

The first 100 miles were led by Babe Headley in a Corvette. I forget who led next, but then Mike Hall, in a two liter Lola T-294 with a Hart 420-R engine, took over for a while. Coming up from a later group was Vern Schuppan, in a Mirage M7.Eventually Schuppan caught Hall, and he led until the finish. Second was Dennis Aase in a Porsche 908. Ludwig Heimrath was third in a Porsche 911 RSR, Headley was fourth, Hall fifth, and Gerhard Hirsch sixth in another Porsche 908. The first Can Am car was Milt Minter, seventh in a McLaren M20.

 

The track tried it again one year later, this time for F-5000 cars. The driver entered into the equation much more than the year before. The race was on a Sunday for 100 miles. On Saturday there was a regular F-5000 race, this one run conventionally and for points. It was won by Brian Redman with Al Unser second, both in Lola T-332s. Again the field was released in groups, with the fastest cars on handicap released three minutes and thirty seconds behind the first. That was approximately one and one-half laps. To make a long story short, Schuppan won again, this time in the AAR Lola T-332. He caught Warwick Brown on the last lap. Brown was in a VDS Lola T-430. Derek Bell was third in the Theodore Lola T-332. Redman, who started in the last group, managed to get up to sixth.

 

While entertaining, the concept did not catch on, and there were no more such races at the track.

 

Tom



#10 Allan Lupton

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 16:50

I was the Handicapper when the BDC  pitlane start first appeared and it was used for the Bentley Handicap. I could never understand why it was supposed to be easier to keep track of a race where the limit man received (say) 6 minutes during which he could cover 3 laps before the scratch man started, rather than sending them off together with three credit laps for the slow car.

The entry for the Bentley Handicap had a pretty even distribution of lap times so it was easy to avoid starting more than two of them at a time (necessary as the pitlane is quite narrow as it nears Copse) but we also tried the idea at Eight Clubs where the speed spread was far less and an entry of 25 cars needed only about four drops of the flag.

Which BOC was referred to above? Not Bugatti I assume.



#11 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 17:39

Sorry mistype Allan. Should have been BDC.   I think the argument re the limit cars doing three laps before the scratch car set off was to give them the same number of laps for their money. 



#12 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 18:45

Road America ran two Handicap races in the 1970s. The first was for sports cars, and was in August, 1975. It was for 252 miles and the cars were released on the basis of a handicap calculation.. There were five groups. The first of course was scratch and was for largely production cars. The last was for the big bangers, Group 7 Can Am cars. They started, as I recall, seven laps (28 miles) behind the first group. 

 

The first 100 miles were led by Babe Headley in a Corvette. I forget who led next, but then Mike Hall, in a two liter Lola T-294 with a Hart 420-R engine, took over for a while. Coming up from a later group was Vern Schuppan, in a Mirage M7.Eventually Schuppan caught Hall, and he led until the finish. Second was Dennis Aase in a Porsche 908. Ludwig Heimrath was third in a Porsche 911 RSR, Headley was fourth, Hall fifth, and Gerhard Hirsch sixth in another Porsche 908. The first Can Am car was Milt Minter, seventh in a McLaren M20.

 

The track tried it again one year later, this time for F-5000 cars. The driver entered into the equation much more than the year before. The race was on a Sunday for 100 miles. On Saturday there was a regular F-5000 race, this one run conventionally and for points. It was won by Brian Redman with Al Unser second, both in Lola T-332s. Again the field was released in groups, with the fastest cars on handicap released three minutes and thirty seconds behind the first. That was approximately one and one-half laps. To make a long story short, Schuppan won again, this time in the AAR Lola T-332. He caught Warwick Brown on the last lap. Brown was in a VDS Lola T-430. Derek Bell was third in the Theodore Lola T-332. Redman, who started in the last group, managed to get up to sixth.

 

While entertaining, the concept did not catch on, and there were no more such races at the track.

 

Tom

I was there for both races. :clap:

 

That seemed to be a temp. fix for things when the Can-Am died; Mid-Ohio also ran such a thing about the same time.

Do not know if any other tracks tried it.



#13 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 21:03

There is still handicap races at some club meetings here in South Oz.

I have run no end of them. Usually a mid field car that wins them. Quite hard from the back.

Very occasionally the front starter has over a lap headstart. 



#14 Stephen W

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 08:51

I remember a couple of excellent handicap races from the VSCC Oulton Park events. The closest being when three cars were approaching Lodge Corner in a battle for the win one had had a +1 lap start whilst one was on Scratch. Mostly the mid-fielders would win as per Lee Nicole's comment but occasionally (usually in damp conditions) one of the early starters would be victorious.

 

Several Formula libre races would have benefitted from being on Handicap rather than have one of the "big bangers" dominate.

 

I was never a fan of the Handicap Races which featured a Grid Start and bonus times. It was always too difficult for spectators and commentators to keep up with! 



#15 Allan Lupton

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 12:08

I think the argument re the limit cars doing three laps before the scratch car set off was to give them the same number of laps for their money. 

I hadn't come across that but the counter-argument is that the credit laps give the same track time. Now that many races are for a specified time rather than number of laps perhaps the pit-lane start will become history.

I see that BDC did have both staggered start and "sealed" handicaps this year as well as pitlane.
 



#16 jcdeleted

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 13:37

When was the last "proper" handicap race when cars set off at intervals are calculated by the handicapper? Presumably VSCC or BOC? I can also remember group handicap races where groups of cars were set off together at intervals and of course when there was a good mix of cars on say the Silverstone Club circuit, credit laps were involved.

I'm  not sure this is definitive, but my mate Malcolm definitely won the Bentley Drivers Club Allcomers Handicap (Faster Cars) in both 2013 and 2014, the latter by 1.8 and the former by 0.006 seconds at the line.  That one was quite exciting on the pit wall! Both these races were proper interval start handicaps.

 

To the best of my  knowledge, these were the only races ever to be won outright by a Lotus Elan Plus Two. I await with interest being corrected.



#17 D-Type

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 18:46

~

To the best of my  knowledge, these were the only races ever to be won outright by a Lotus Elan Plus Two. I await with interest being corrected.

Way back when, I remember seering a Plus 2 racing at Igliston - I don't know if it ever won.



#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 19:24

Screenshot-2020-12-18-at-19-18-36.png

 

1955 handicap line-up at Goodwood.  One of the bravest sights I recall is from a handicap we ran at one of the early Revival Meetings as mentioned above - a brave 500cc demented woodpecker which had started with something like a 2-lap advantage clattering flat-out down the Lavant Straight with scratch man Joaquin Folch screaming up behind him in a GLTL Lotus 49.  For me that defined 'handicap' with knobs on.  But what I still regard as our brave try foundered in lack of interest amongst entrants.

 

Photo Copyright: Revs Institute/Revs Digital Library

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 18 December 2020 - 19:25.


#19 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 05:23

Speed difference is always a consideration. Though so is sitting on the grid waiting for the 'lead' car to come past. Watching in the mirrors as they get untidy off of the last corner!

I looked at my trophys and no handicap wins. And I started off close to the front originally and put myself further and further back as I got faster,,, and spent more money!

Reverse grids too are fraught with danger as the fast cars come through very quickly. Even inverted top 10s. I once started at a championship  event on the front row, tried too hard and fried the clutch :evil: . And literally got run over on the third corner. Driving very gently over the clutch I still finished top 10,, with a pushed in door and three flares hanging off. The car that hit me was a DNF. And not his fault at all, just a fourth car trying to make a 3 car piece  of road wide enough for 4.



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#20 mikeC

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 17:24

Did anyone ever run over the starter?

 

a4402crop-copy.jpg



#21 D-Type

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 19:49

Did anyone ever run over the starter?

If they did, I doubt they would have been invited back.

In Kenya,with the vast difference in performance of the available cars, it was scratch races in the morning andhandicaps in the afternoon. One innovation they tried was ignoring distinctions between saloon, GT, sports and racing cars and running the handicaps for cars that had lapped in the range between x and y seconds.  They also would disqualify anybody who improved significantly on his handicap speed - it stopped anyone swinging the lead but was hard on someone who made a genuine improvement in his driving or got his car to run properly.
 



#22 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 22:58

Back in the 50s, Dad did handicap races at Aintree, Oulton Park & maybe Mallory as well [he raced there, I assume it was in handicap races] in his Austin A40s [over the years he had 2] & an A50. The etiquette in those days is that once past the chequered flag, you stayed in position whilst returning to the paddock. On one occasion, at Aintree, Dad just pipped Jean Bloxham in her Aston.....another 20 yards or so, she would have won.....but the speed she was going meant that she passed Dad just after the flag. In the paddock afterwards, she came up to him to apologise for doing so..... :drunk:   



#23 bradbury west

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 23:23

 

 

 

To the best of my  knowledge, these were the only races ever to be won outright by a Lotus Elan Plus Two. I await with interest being corrected.

I would not dream of offering a contradiction as I do not know  an answer.

I will add that the only Plus 2 I recall racing in period was a very special lightweight bodied one driven by  Gerald Ashmore. Your results relate to a later period so not connected.

Roger Lund



#24 Allan Lupton

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Posted 20 December 2020 - 09:03

In Kenya,with the vast difference in performance of  the available cars, it was scratch races in the morning and handicaps in the afternoon. One innovation they tried was ignoring distinctions between saloon, GT, sports and racing cars and running the handicaps for cars that had lapped in the range between x and y seconds.  They also would disqualify anybody who improved significantly on his handicap speed - it stopped anyone swinging the lead but was hard on someone who made a genuine improvement in his driving or got his car to run properly.
 

We ran the Eight Clubs Silverstone handicap and scratch races on the expected time basis, which on the whole worked well. Some of the scratch races had unlikely-looking grids as a consequence.

The RAC rules gave us the option of disqualifying a handicap competitor who improved on his practice time by more than 5% unless he had told us he would. That latter was supposed to cover the change to running properly.



#25 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 December 2020 - 12:41

Did anyone ever run over the starter?

 

a4402crop-copy.jpg

I think that question would elecit a similar response to Lord Carrington's when asked what would happen if Mrs Thatcher was run over by a bus.  ;)

 

Incidentally, and apropos of nothing in particular, Ebby's little silk Union Flag was apparently buried with him.



#26 nicanary

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Posted 20 December 2020 - 13:50

My memory is fading badly, but wasn't there an unusual handicap race at Brands - the end of the year prior to the BSCC turning to production "showroom" cars and IIRC John Webb organised a saloon handicap which included a Fiat 500 and a Silver Shadow. Just up DCN's street.



#27 D-Type

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Posted 20 December 2020 - 15:36

I think that question would elecit a similar response to Lord Carrington's when asked what would happen if Mrs Thatcher was run over by a bus.  ;)

 

~

:confused:  I had to look it up.   :up:

 

https://libquotes.co...n/quote/lbe1g9w



#28 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 14:53

I took a wild guess... something like "pity the poor bus"... almost right! :lol: