106 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

@F1

The votes are in... 📩

Do you agree with the team principals' verdict?

#F1

 

https://www.formula1...C3MrzeFNa3.html

 

1. Hamilton

2. Verstappen

3. Leclerc

4. Ricciardo 

5. Perez

6. Russell

7. Norris

8. Sainz

9= Bottas

9= Gasly

[Astandahl]

Top 10 drivers voted by team bosses.

 

 

We asked all ten team principals to submit their list of the top 10 drivers of the year, under the proviso their individual ranking would remain anonymous. Drivers were given scores based on the current F1 points system – 25 for the top driver down to one for 10th in each list – and then those scores were combined to create a ranking.

 

 

The Team Principals who took part in the vote (in alphabetical order) were: Cyril Abiteboul, Christian Horner, Simon Roberts, Andreas Seidl, Guenther Steiner, Otmar Szafnauer, Franz Tost, Fred Vasseur, Toto Wolff.

 

https://www.formula1...C3MrzeFNa3.html

Edited by Astandahl, 17 December 2020 - 14:54.

[PlayboyRacer]

Agree with them. Only thing that surprises me is the gap between Leclerc and Ricciardo. The TP's are much less harsh on Charles' lap 1 incidents than the fans seem to be.

[FLB]

Bottas tied with Gasly is surprising, IMHO.

Edited by FLB, 17 December 2020 - 13:40.

[SophieB]

Surprised that Norris outscored Sainz.

[Flasheart]

Agree with them. Only thing that surprises me is the gap between Leclerc and Ricciardo. The TP's are much less harsh on Charles' lap 1 incidents than the fans seem to be.

Exactly my thoughts. I don’t have an issue with the order, but for there to be such a gap to Danny Ric doesn’t make a lot of sense. Maybe Leclercs ratings are skewed due to Vettel being his team mate? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Augurk]

It's not a bad list at all, even if I would've changed a few things.

 

Not much between the top 2 - both drove excellent year round, both had one or two races with a few (minor) mishaps. One just had the better car. 

Would rate Ricciardo over Leclerc for season-long performance, even if Leclerc had more standout moments. 

 

And that's what seems to count in all the lists, this one and the media one: getting a (freak) standout result is much more important than driving consistently well throughout the year. 

[ForzaFormula]

Looks about right

[Ali623]

Russell seems too high, Leclerc and Ricciardo should really be closer.

[ForzaFormula]

Russell seems too high, Leclerc and Ricciardo should really be closer.

The team principles have all knowledge of how well the drivers are actually doing relative to the car/team mates/results combined, Russell has obviously been highly impressive and is highly rated within the f1 paddock as one of the next best.

[PlayboyRacer]

Exactly my thoughts. I don’t have an issue with the order, but for there to be such a gap to Danny Ric doesn’t make a lot of sense. Maybe Leclercs ratings are skewed due to Vettel being his team mate? 🤷🏻‍♂️

I wonder how much emphasis the TP's are placing on the quality of that Ferrari. Something is giving them the impression that Charles was pretty outstanding. Perhaps that car was worse than what we all generally believe.

[Marklar]

based on previous years recency bias plays a massive role

[noikeee]

I think this is the year in which they've been closest to my own perception, it's pretty close to what I think myself (speaking of which, still haven't posted my annual rankings, started writing it but never finished...)

[ARTGP]

Russell seems too high, Leclerc and Ricciardo should really be closer.

 

I think consistency wise, Ricciardo was better, but Leclerc is simply demonic on Saturdays. Leclerc in qualifying really has a WOW factor that Ric and others didn't have. Leclerc had no business or right to be sitting P4 on the grid on multiple occasions. And that that might explain some of the gap. But not all of it. as I mentioned, Ric was more consistent through Saturday and Sunday.

Edited by ARTGP, 17 December 2020 - 14:19.

[Alfisti]

How on earth did norris have a better year than sainz????

[Taxi]

Unless they know something we don't, Sainz should be above Norris. 

[ARTGP]

Unless they know something we don't, Sainz should be above Norris. 

 

Well this is only Norris's second season and he basically matched Sainz who has been here for 5+ years. That seems relevant.

Edited by ARTGP, 17 December 2020 - 14:22.

[messy]

Russell and Norris look too high - BUT I do always put quite a lot of trust in this ranking as the team bosses know rather more than fans and journalists about what goes on behind the scenes.

 

I thought Lando had a really good season though, and there's no shame in not definitively proving stronger than a team-mate as good and experienced as Carlos. 

[PlayboyRacer]

I think consistency wise, Ricciardo was better, but Leclerc is simply demonic on Saturdays. Leclerc in qualifying really has a WOW factor that Ric and others didn't have. Leclerc had no business or right to be sitting P4 on the grid on multiple occasions. And that that might explain some of the gap. But not all of it. as I mentioned, Ric was more consistent through Saturday and Sunday.

Some more food for thought. Ricciardo was clearly more consistent but also did have the better car. But then you look at this -

Ricciardo top 5 finishes - 7 (highest 3rd)
Leclerc top 5 finishes - 6 (highest 2nd)

When you take the car into account, Charles comes off looking pretty exceptional there. And that's without even looking at qualy.

[Lights]

based on previous years recency bias plays a massive role

 

Other than Russell and his recently hyped Sakhir weekend, I'm not sure I see it in this case.

Otherwise I'd expect them to put Ricciardo above Leclerc, Perez perhaps above the pair of them, and additionally also Sainz above Norris.

 

Overall this list isn't bad. At least they put the right drivers in the top 5 and the right drivers in the top 6-10. The order within those two groups is debatable.

But it's a good effort and from memory, better than other years. Last year for example they greatly overrated Albon and put him 6th.

 

A bias that I do feel might be present here is the 'potential' bias. Maybe instead of thinking 'who performed how impressively this season?', they might think more towards 'who would I like to have in my car next season?'.

That might be why they put Leclerc, Norris & Russell higher than they should be, and why they rated Albon so highly last year.

Edited by Lights, 17 December 2020 - 14:29.

[lewislorenzo]

Surprised sainz is so low

[NixxxoN]

Well this is only Norris's second season and he basically matched Sainz who has been here for 5+ years. That seems relevant.

Not really. Sainz has had the upper hand on Norris and outscored him even with more retirements and misfortunes. He had terrible luck in the first part of the season.

The only logical explaination for Norris being above here is the experience factor... it's been the 2nd season for Norris and the 6th one for Sainz

Edited by NixxxoN, 17 December 2020 - 14:33.

[ARTGP]

Other than Russell and his recently hyped Sakhir weekend, I'm not sure I see it in this case.

Otherwise I'd expect them to put Ricciardo above Leclerc, Perez perhaps above the pair of them, and additionally also Sainz above Norris.

 

Overall this list isn't bad. At least they put the right drivers in the top 5 and the right drivers in the top 6-10. The order within those two groups is debatable.

But it's a good effort and from memory, better than other years. Last year for example they greatly overrated Albon and put him 6th.

 

A bias that I do feel might be present here is the 'potential' bias. Maybe instead of thinking 'who performed how impressively this season?', they might think more towards 'who would I like to have in my car next season?'.

That might be why they put Leclerc, Norris & Russell higher than they should be, and why they rated Albon so highly last year.

 

Realistically speaking, who would you put above Leclerc, who is not already? 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 December 2020 - 14:31.

[PlayboyRacer]

Not really. Sainz has had the upper hand on Norris and outscored him even with more retirements and misfortunes. He had terrible luck in the first part of the season.

I think this shows they put considerable emphasis on qualifying. Combine that with Norris' level of experience and I can see a small degree of sense in their rankings.

[ARTGP]

Not really. Sainz has had the upper hand on Norris and outscored him even with more retirements and misfortunes. He had terrible luck in the first part of the season.

The only logical explaination for Norris being above here is the experience factor... it's been the 2nd season for Norris and the 6th one for Sainz

 

Sainz had 105 points. Norris had 97. Sainz effectively 3 retirements. Norris just 1. There are plenty of mitigating factors. They were not worlds apart and Norris is only in season 2 and led the qualy battle. 

[Lights]

Realistically speaking, who would you put above Leclerc, who is not already? 

 

Ricciardo, marginally. See my ratings here for more details.

 

And I'm not saying it's ridiculous that they put Leclerc in 3rd, because for me it was basically a tie.

 

But the fact that in terms of 'points' the team principals scored Leclerc closer to Verstappen than to Ricciardo, that gives me the feeling that they slightly overrate Leclerc's season.

Which I believe is based on the perceived potential they think he has rather than how he performed this season, which simply included several costly errors that Ricciardo had fewer of.

[NixxxoN]

Sainz had 105 points. Norris had 97. Sainz effectively 3 retirements. Norris just 1. There are plenty of mitigating factors. They were not worlds apart and Norris is only in season 2 and led the qualy battle. 

Sure they not were "worlds apart" but that's not the same as "matched". Sainz lost so many points in the early races, he should have fought for 4th in WDC with Perez.

Edited by NixxxoN, 17 December 2020 - 14:49.

[JeePee]

Gasly tied with Bottas? Gasly only has 1 win less this year, while driving an Alpha Tauri.

[TomNokoe]

Russell and Norris look too high - BUT I do always put quite a lot of trust in this ranking as the team bosses know rather more than fans and journalists about what goes on behind the scenes.

Honestly I always thought this was an illusion. We all watch the same races!

[FLB]

Unless they know something we don't, Sainz should be above Norris. 

I think a lot of people have been left unimpressed by Monza, which may have played against Sainz and Gasly (and Stroll).

[Francesc]

Sainz should be 6th at least. And Bottas is in there only because he drives for Mercedes.

[KWSN - DSM]

 

@F1

The votes are in...

Do you agree with the team principals' verdict?

#F1

 

https://www.formula1...C3MrzeFNa3.html

 

1. Hamilton

2. Verstappen

3. Leclerc

4. Ricciardo 

5. Perez

6. Russell

7. Norris

8. Sainz

9= Bottas

9= Gasly

 

 

Atlas F1 Forum does a better job than F1 Principals as usual

[Radoye]

IMO Max ahead of Hamilton, he's the only one today who'd i believe be able to juuust beat Hamilton if everyone else being equal. But very close between those two.

 

Sainz is underrated, should be around 4-5-6 with RIC and PER and above RUS and NOR.

 

Other than that looks pretty OK to me

[Marklar]

Other than Russell and his recently hyped Sakhir weekend, I'm not sure I see it in this case.
Otherwise I'd expect them to put Ricciardo above Leclerc, Perez perhaps above the pair of them, and additionally also Sainz above Norris.

Overall this list isn't bad. At least they put the right drivers in the top 5 and the right drivers in the top 6-10. The order within those two groups is debatable.
But it's a good effort and from memory, better than other years. Last year for example they greatly overrated Albon and put him 6th.

A bias that I do feel might be present here is the 'potential' bias. Maybe instead of thinking 'who performed how impressively this season?', they might think more towards 'who would I like to have in my car next season?'.
That might be why they put Leclerc, Norris & Russell higher than they should be, and why they rated Albon so highly last year.

yeah, maybe, we had this last year too when Leclerc got double the votes as Vettel despite them being a match too. Or Ocon got 4th in 2017 despite being beaten by Perez. Could explain this with both potential and recent hype factor/recency bias.

Edited by Marklar, 17 December 2020 - 15:32.

[Rodaknee]

No way should be Russell that high, certainly not above Sainz.  As good as Russell might eventually be, he's only had one race at the front and hasn't had to chase positions and stop being overtaken, like the others in the list have to do every race.

[Astandahl]

yeah, maybe, we had this last year too when Leclerc got double the votes as Vettel despite them being a match too. Or Ocon got 4th in 2017 despite being beaten by Perez. Could explain this with both potential and recent hype factor/recency bias.

Bias is clearly a thing. Lewis won in 2016 as well for example. I'd say Rosberg deserved that one...

 

Vettel was behind Max in 2017 which is completely insane to me. At the end of the day they are just ratings.

[TheAviator]

Nice to see such a big gap from Leclerc to rest of midfield. TPs know the pace of that Ferrari and credentials of other driver in that car that finished with 1/3rd of points.

[Marklar]

Bias is clearly a thing. Lewis won in 2016 as well for example. I'd say Rosberg deserved that one...

Vettel was behind Max in 2017 which is completely insane to me. At the end of the day they are just ratings.

I disagree with you on both. Lewis was better than Nico in 2016, and Max better than Vettel in 2017

[TheAviator]

Some more food for thought. Ricciardo was clearly more consistent but also did have the better car. But then you look at this -

Ricciardo top 5 finishes - 7 (highest 3rd)
Leclerc top 5 finishes - 6 (highest 2nd)

When you take the car into account, Charles comes off looking pretty exceptional there. And that's without even looking at qualy.

Charles had 3 more DNFs as well. That makes it even more impressive.

Ric was very good and very consistant, but even against his team mate he had big advantage in terms of DNFs (3 DNFs less)

[F127]

Looks good, but I think Gasly was just as impressive as Ricciardo and Perez and should be in that bunch..

[Astandahl]

I disagree with you on both. Lewis was better than Nico in 2016, and Max better than Vettel in 2017

See? That is just the nature of ratings.

 

A funny trivia: The F1 Metrics model which placed Lewis at the top in the 2018 season placed Seb at the top of 2017 season and Max at the top of the 2019 season.

Edited by Astandahl, 17 December 2020 - 15:42.

[ForzaFormula]

How on earth did norris have a better year than sainz????

He’s only in his second year in f1 and obviously that impressed them against an experienced and at his peak Sainz.

[CSF]

Charles had 3 more DNFs as well. That makes it even more impressive.

Ric was very good and very consistant, but even against his team mate he had big advantage in terms of DNFs (3 DNFs less)

 

 

All 3 were his own errors though. 

 

Leclerc had some very high points and some very low points in 2020. 

[TheAviator]

All 3 were his own errors though.

Leclerc had some very high points and some very low points in 2020.

Absolutely, but that says alot about other results of his if he got beaten in last 2 races of a season by someone like Ric driving better car through entire season and with 3DNFs less.

[kosmos]

Sainz so low and below Norris?

[Bleu]

Bottas tied with Gasly is surprising, IMHO.

 

I think Bottas is around where he should be, Gasly is too low.

[Risil]

I'd go with that. It's hard to know how to rate Verstappen these days but he's the only driver to have been able to take the fight to Mercedes, which I guess is a level above what any of Lewis's other challengers are achieving.

 

Leclerc and Ricciardo have stood out in difficult cars and have generally looked a step above their teammates. Perez similarly was clearly better than Stroll, but I guess one is entitled to lingering doubts about what the Racing Point might have achieved.

 

I think you could've made a case for rating the McLaren drivers a bit higher -- they got the team to third in points, after all. After Lewis and Max you could probably have put 3-8 in any order.

 

Bottas lost his way towards the end of the year and with a less dominant Mercedes you suspect he wouldn't have held onto second in the championship. But I think it makes sense to include all the race winners in the top 10, if you can. That's the name of the game, after all.

[Collective]

I think a lot of people have been left unimpressed by Monza, which may have played against Sainz and Gasly (and Stroll).

Sainz's Monza result was 100% merit, he was fighting for a podium since lap one. Shame if it got overlooked with the rest of the crazyness. Gasly benefited from the SC, so less so. And Stroll was just handed a win by the red flag, which he turned into a P3 with a horrible start, so no one should be impressed by that.

Edited by Collective, 17 December 2020 - 16:54.

[Speedometer]

See? That is just the nature of ratings.

 

A funny trivia: The F1 Metrics model which placed Lewis at the top in the 2018 season placed Seb at the top of 2017 season and Max at the top of the 2019 season.

Personally, I can't take seriously any model that ranks Hulk and Perez above Prost and Senna.

 

2019, i can see a good case for Verstappen (as well as Hamilton)

 

2017, F1 Metrics was a bit an outlier placing Seb top  e.g.

 

Undisputed champion: 10 titles name Hamilton top driver of 2017 · RaceFans

 

I couldn't find any other rating system that put Seb top in 2017

[pup]

1. Hamilton

2. Verstappen

3. Ricciardo

4 = Sainz

4 = Leclerc

6. Norris

7. Bottas

8. Russell

9. Perez

10. Gasly

 

I suspect that Leclerc has more raw talent than Ricciardo or Sainz, but he had some high profile mistakes and I think it's really hard to judge his season given Vettel's current form.  I'm very interested to see how he does against Sainz.  I suspect that he'll have a well deserved #3 spot this time next year.

 

Perez' reputation benefitted immensely from a really fast car and having a lousy teammate.  He's a top 10 but not a top 5 driver.

 

Russell may have a similar talent level to Leclerc, but his ranking is almost surely due to a single (impressive) drive.  Definitely top 10 imo but he really needs more drives in a better car to prove his true talent.

 

Both McLaren drivers deserve a boost, considering that the car was definitely not as good as the RP and on many tracks not as good as the Renault or even Ferrari.  No big mistakes, just solid driving.  It seemed like in almost every race, one of them had the car in a higher position than it should have been.

 

Ricciardo was a true midfield threat in most races, even if his results didn't always reflect that.

Edited by pup, 17 December 2020 - 17:24.