164 replies to this topic

[jpm2019]

Hi all,

 

On ziggo there is a documentary about Max. It's 3 parts of 35 minutes. I saw it and it is great. Think Drive to Survive but only about Max his whole life. 

 

Maybe it will take some time for non dutchies to see it, but I'm sure you will. 

 

A few spoilers;

- When Max went to RB senior team in 2016 he already had a contract for 2017

- When Max got offered the Torro Rosso seat. Toto and Niki tried to get Max to, but they could not garantuee a seat

- Max can get very drunk ! 

 

The docu gives great insight in the Verstappen family and I can tell you they don't pretent to be something they are not. Jos doesn't come off very well to be honest. 

 

If you get the chance: A must watch! 

 

Edited by jpm2019, 18 December 2020 - 14:59.

[jpm2019]

Trailer 

[Marklar]

I found the Jos parts pretty disturbing, but then again we kinda knew that.

[ARTGP]

I found the Jos parts pretty disturbing, but then again we kinda knew that.

 

There's another somewhat lengthy interview that Max and Jos did with Coulthard. "Keeping up with the Verstappens".   Jos again comes across very Machiavellian. He doesn't try very hard to cover that up 

[ANF]

Trailer

It will only play in the Netherlands.

[OO7]

It will only play in the Netherlands.

Looks like you've got a long trip ahead of you ANF.

[NoForumForOldPole]

Looks like you've got a long trip ahead of you ANF.

 

Tunnelbear...

[Requiem84]

Just saw a few parts.

Man, Jos was even more brutal than I thought.


Max messed up a karting race in Italy in 2012 because of a silly mistake. Jos furious, didnt want to talk to him. Max still tried to speak, Jos said get out of the car, left Max at the gas station, middle of Itale and his mum (also in Italy) had to pick him up. Eventually Jos rode him home, they didnt speak for 1800 km and the whole subsequent week.

Brutal.

Edited by Requiem84, 18 December 2020 - 17:04.

[Ivanhoe]

Brutal.

Child abuse.

[OvDrone]

That sounds like a lot of parental healing to do, no matter the outer success achieved.

[SophieB]

There's another somewhat lengthy interview that Max and Jos did with Coulthard. "Keeping up with the Verstappens".   Jos again comes across very Machiavellian. He doesn't try very hard to cover that up 

Is that the one where Max and Jos laugh along at the memory of how one time when Max was a kid, Jos struck him across the head (wearing his crash helmet, I think?) for not being fast enough during a race build up and then Jos proudly says how he then set pole and DC laughs along like this is a charming anecdote?

 

e. The DC interview is here, the bit I was talking about from about 40 mins in.

https://youtu.be/NzdaAUU7Da8

[Myrvold]

Just saw a few parts.

Man, Jos was even more brutal than I thought.


Max messed up a karting race in Italy in 2012 because of a silly mistake. Jos furious, didnt want to talk to him. Max still tried to speak, Jos said get out of the car, left Max at the gas station, middle of Itale and his mum (also in Italy) had to pick him up. Eventually Jos rode him home, they didnt speak for 1800 km and the whole subsequent week.

Brutal.

This has been known for quite a while? I've read and heard this story for a long time.

[SophieB]

This has been known for quite a while? I've read and heard this story for a long time.

FWIW, I never heard it, so it was news to me at least.

[Junky]

Just saw a few parts.

Man, Jos was even more brutal than I thought.


Max messed up a karting race in Italy in 2012 because of a silly mistake. Jos furious, didnt want to talk to him. Max still tried to speak, Jos said get out of the car, left Max at the gas station, middle of Itale and his mum (also in Italy) had to pick him up. Eventually Jos rode him home, they didnt speak for 1800 km and the whole subsequent week.

Brutal.

 

 

That's more of sociopath behaviour rather than educational.

[Myrvold]

FWIW, I never heard it, so it was news to me at least.

Maybe it's just me noticing, and remembering a lot of stories about what was my 2nd favorite driver as a kid

[Cliff]

Child abuse.

To be honest that’s the only way to get to the top in any sport, the difference is that Jos was his trainer, and normally in most sports your trainer is not your family.

I used to be a professional ski racer till my 18th. Was in the top 5 of Europe in slalom as a kid and I got treated like **** by my trainer if I wasn’t giving a 100%. Wouldn’t have traded it for the world as it gave me super valuable life lessons. Quite frankly if you can’t take it your not made for top sport or top of anything for that matter.

Also Max seems to have a great relationship with his dad and seems to be super thankful.

[Myrvold]

To be honest that’s the only way to get to the top in any sport, the difference is that Jos was his trainer, and normally in most sports your trainer is not your family.

Also Max seems to have a great relationship with his dad and seems to be super thankful.

It's not the only way...

I wouldn't dare to not be super thankful tbh.

[fed up]

Child abuse.

 

No, not child abuse, more like tough love. 

[absinthedude]

[sets VPN to flatland]

[gillesfan76]

To be honest that’s the only way to get to the top in any sport, the difference is that Jos was his trainer, and normally in most sports your trainer is not your family.

I used to be a professional ski racer till my 18th. Was in the top 5 of Europe in slalom as a kid and I got treated like **** by my trainer if I wasn’t giving a 100%. Wouldn’t have traded it for the world as it gave me super valuable life lessons. Quite frankly if you can’t take it your not made for top sport or top of anything for that matter.

Also Max seems to have a great relationship with his dad and seems to be super thankful.

 

What happened to your prospects, in slalom, as a young adult? Did you make it?

[absinthedude]

No, not child abuse, more like tough love. 

 

Nope. THat would certainly be classified as parental abuse under UK law....according to the training I received just this morning as it happens (I work with teenage children and have training on child safety including sessions on what is and isn't abuse, twice yearly). You cannot "punish"  a minor by striking them (helmet or no) or by kicking them out of a car and driving off. Clear cut case of abuse, with no room for doubt. Not that I was ever a Jos fan but where my view of him was pretty low, it is now subterranean. 

 

And nol. That's also not the only way to bring up a talented kid. I have personal experience of "former gifted child burnout". 

[Ross Stonefeld]

Lewis and Papa Hamilton's relationship got stressed over time but I think that was more to due with Lewis's career and life progression(similar to the departure from McLaren and Ron Dennis) but Hamilton Senior shows you don't have to be Jos.

[SophieB]

Somehow the worst aspect is he plainly genuinely thinks this makes him look good/admirable. That’s why it’s bad when people like DC laugh and go along with it. Kids in messed up childhoods often grow up thinking it’s normal because there’s no-one really to say otherwise. So people from outside looking shocked and weirded out when these stories are trotted out can plant valuable seeds of doubt. Instead, in the interview I saw, it’s euphemisms and playing things down as ‘tough love’ as DC put it. 

[MasterOfCoin]

No, not child abuse, more like tough love. 

It's at the very least child negligence....

Edited by MasterOfCoin, 18 December 2020 - 17:47.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Somehow the worst aspect is he plainly genuinely thinks this makes him look good/admirable. That’s why it’s bad when people like DC laugh and go along with it. Kids in messed up childhoods often grow up thinking it’s normal because there’s no-one really to say otherwise. So people from outside looking shocked and weirded out when these stories are trotted out can plant valuable seeds of doubt. Instead, in the interview I saw, it’s euphemisms and playing things down as ‘tough love’ as DC put it. 

 

It's Coulthard, his career up to this point has been just going along. With the occasional questioning how things might have gone if he'd been a bit harder nosed. 

[SophieB]

It's Coulthard, his career up to this point has been just going along. With the occasional questioning how things might have gone if he'd been a bit harder nosed. 

From a human being point of view, I sympathised and understood. It would have taken quite a lot of moral courage to disrupt the chummy, sponsored interview to challenge him head on and frankly, I wouldn’t have blamed him if he was a bit afraid of him. But it all has an effect, nonetheless.

[absinthedude]

It's at the very least child negligence....

 

in law negilgence = abuse

[Ross Stonefeld]

Maybe he should stop playing at being a media person then 🤷‍♂️

This is more than just Max though, Jos has has some other history of, uh, poor choices when interacting with people.

[Atreiu]

The more I know about Jos the less I like him.

[OvDrone]

Eh, I guess I prefer Hamilton's father approach and not Verstappen's. But that's just me and history.

[Ivanhoe]

Somehow the worst aspect is he plainly genuinely thinks this makes him look good/admirable. That’s why it’s bad when people like DC laugh and go along with it. Kids in messed up childhoods often grow up thinking it’s normal because there’s no-one really to say otherwise. So people from outside looking shocked and weirded out when these stories are trotted out can plant valuable seeds of doubt. Instead, in the interview I saw, it’s euphemisms and playing things down as ‘tough love’ as DC put it.

Looking at Frans, Jos was also pretty messed up in childhood. He grew up in what we call a ‘trailertrash’ culture.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 18 December 2020 - 18:08.

[SophieB]

Looking at Frans, Jos was also pretty messed up in childhood. He grew up in what we call a ‘trailertrash’ culture.

I don’t know anything about the culture you’re referencing there so not commenting on it, but it’s not surprising to hear his own father subjected him to a difficult childhood.

Do we get to see much of Max’s mum in the documentary, jpm2019? What is she like?

[Marklar]

his mom is amazing

[Ivanhoe]

Yep, fortunately Max got some of her genes as well.

[Requiem84]

The worst part is that

1) Jos is totally unaware that he has crossed many extremely poor parenting bridges. It’s borderline negligence / abuse
2) Jos is proud on what he did and thinks it greatly helped Max
3) Nobody in interviews with Jos (Ziggo, Peptalk) is questioning him. Not the interviewer, not the sidekick, nor the guests

But for the British, I hope they now understand where the straightforwardedness from Max comes from and that this in some subcultures in the Netherlands this is business as usual.

It does help with the perspective understanding how he was raised.

[pRy]

Not much chance of us understanding anything if we can't watch it. 

 

What does Jos do that's considered abusive?

Edited by pRy, 18 December 2020 - 18:50.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

To be honest that’s the only way to get to the top in any sport, the difference is that Jos was his trainer, and normally in most sports your trainer is not your family.

I used to be a professional ski racer till my 18th. Was in the top 5 of Europe in slalom as a kid and I got treated like **** by my trainer if I wasn’t giving a 100%. Wouldn’t have traded it for the world as it gave me super valuable life lessons. Quite frankly if you can’t take it your not made for top sport or top of anything for that matter.

Also Max seems to have a great relationship with his dad and seems to be super thankful.

That's not being honest, that's being set in the old ways of training athletes.  Being authoritarian abuser is not the only way to bring out the best in people you're training.  In fact, the Bela Karolyi method of training is often a good way to waste talent through burnout or bad decisions due to lack of honest communication.

[PlatenGlass]

To be honest that’s the only way to get to the top in any sport

Bullshit.

[fed up]

From a sporting perspective, I believe Vers is where he is today partly because of the unwavering energy that his father put into his development. From our perspectives this is wrong, but if Max is fine with it what do we know.

 

As for Max the man, person, he seems fine and rounded to me. He has the occasional brain fade and air of superiority about him, but how would we cope having to do our growing up in the public eye.

 

Max is where he is today partly because of dad, partly because of mum and partly because of Max. 

[jpm2019]

I have mixed feelings. One way i was shocked by jos. But on the other hand max looks happy and the relation between him and jos seems rock solid. Also we see jos very proud and emotional. Its easy to judge, but if you have 2 extremely competive persons working together, driving each other to the absolute extreme this is what you get. Max looks so strong and balanced for his age. Knowing what he needs to do to be the best, but also being aware of enjoying his life in the proces and being a youngster. 
 

yes jos his aproach is not socially acceptable in this day and age, but i also see a lot of love and respect. Jos is the typical dad who never says he loves his kid, but he really does. And max knows it. 
 

also love the role of Raymond. I think he is the glue that holds it all together. 
 

jos mum, sophie is great. 
 

also great so see max passion is with racing and not money, and he shares his wealth with his loved ones. But doing it in a normal way (as one of his friends says).

 

Still impressed by the docu, going for run 2 tonight.

 

hopefully everyone can see it soon. Any way we can help our fellow fans watching it?

[PlayboyRacer]

The more I know about Jos the less I like him.

That's the understatement of the year.

[Ivanhoe]

Jos is also a product of his nurture, he really doesn’t know better and was raised the hard way in a pretty rough environment. Add to that that he doesn’t seem to excel in intelligence and self reflection and you end up with an unlikable person. At the end of the day, it’s just pretty sad really. Max sometimes shows he has some of the genes of Jos but is far more balanced than his father.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 18 December 2020 - 19:45.

[mjjTT]

A funny part was that the mother lights a candle at church before every race. And sends a picture of it to Max. Max doesn't understand why she keeps doing it and shows all the candle pictures. But the mother says she Will keep sending the candle pictures.

[potmotr]

It seems the only people Jos hasn't beaten are those he actually raced against.

 

Cracked the skull of some guy at a kart track in the late 90s, aided by Max's grandfather.

 

Stalked and threatened Max's mother.

 

Later arrested for attempted murder of an incident with another girlfriend.

 

In all cases he either settled or charges were dropped. Good lawyers for you...

 

So I presume the young Max saw some pretty unpleasant stuff at home... 

[Rodaknee]

All of the kids who've come up through carting needed their parents involvement.  I've not heard of any of those who've got to the top having an abusive relationship like the Verstappens.

 

Many abused children have grown to accept their treatment as normal.  The current relationship between Max and his father isn't unusual, it doesn't exonerate Jos from previous behaviour towards his 'meal ticket'.

[Cliff]

What happened to your prospects, in slalom, as a young adult? Did you make it?

When the time came to choose to give up everything and go for it or persue other things I also loved I chose the latter. I got a really bad injury when I was 17 and I discovered my heart wasn’t into it as much as some of my competitors. So ultimately I probably wouldn’t have made it.

In hindsight I’m glad I had a long time to think about it when I got injured, and I’ve definitely made the right decision looking back. I went to uni and went all in on my other passion: music. Now I’m a music producer/performer traveling the world and having all the freedom I missed when I was ski-ing. Still I look back on it with a lot of joy and it gave me a lot of early life experience.

[masa90]

Need to be careful here on how I say it, but man sometimes seeing Max behaving badly, you really get an idea on why/where it comes from.

 

Same with few other problematic people currently coming up at racing.

 

 

Slight offtopic here, but having had some troubles and problems at my childhood, those things can really affect your youth and early adult years heavily. (Ofcourse it can go even further, depends on person and circumstances)

Having problems like that usually takes time to heal (well, for me stuff have sorted itself out and all is good now) but when you are hugely popular sportstar and a public figure and under microscope pretty much every day especially these days it really can lead to a bad results.

[A3]

Here's Max totally wasted on his birthday.

 

https://streamable.com/w1tsex

[Rodaknee]

Is that the one where Max and Jos laugh along at the memory of how one time when Max was a kid, Jos struck him across the head (wearing his crash helmet, I think?) for not being fast enough during a race build up and then Jos proudly says how he then set pole and DC laughs along like this is a charming anecdote?

 

e. The DC interview is here, the bit I was talking about from about 40 mins in.

https://youtu.be/NzdaAUU7Da8

 

How long do you think the interview would have lasted if DC had pulled Jos up on what he'd done?

I've not seen the interview, but DC may have been giving him a nice long length of rope to hang himself.

 

 

 

[MJB5990]

Here's Max totally wasted on his birthday.

 

https://streamable.com/w1tsex

 

Check out Di Resta in the background.

 

Explains his love-in for both Max and Daniel on Sky F1.