11936 replies to this topic

[alframsey]

This is an interesting perspective. Do you honestly believe that what happened at AD is no different to any other FIA decision over the years?That’s not the case for me bar perhaps 2007, but I understood the logic that a car, the McLaren, could be judged an illegal clone and therefore it would not be realistic for said car to win the WDC. So I accepted that the result was a fair result in the overall scheme of things.

 

What happened in AD was alien to me, especially the prize at stake over a 22 race season. For Masi to have made that decision, which in my view clearly favoured Max, was inexplicable in the sports that I watch. 
 

Now, will I continue to watch F1 going forward? I don’t know. But for sure, I won’t invest my energy in the outcome again, because I can’t trust that’s it a genuine sport, and if it’s not genuine what’s the point of wasting one’s time? 

I don't think it was the same as other decisions but the manipulation of events and general poor decisions is F1 all over, I really don't think it was that surprising that they did wht they did in the name of entertainment.

 

For what it is worth, I am currently rewatching every race of the season (before I have to return to uni) and I'm half way through the Austrian GP. I actually forgot that Lewis only won three races out of the first nine (to Max's five) and the car really was not on Red Bulls pace during the first half, coupled with that small error in Baku and his off weekend at Monaco and it was an amazing fight back wasn't it?

 

Before this rewatching of the season I was thinking "You know, maybe I am remembering wrong and the Red Bull actually wasn't faster" but not I am reminded that the RRB looked so much better balanced for a large part of the season, it wasn't light years and the cars were close but from what I am seeing again the speed came easier.

 

I've loved rewatching these races and I think on the whole, Max was the stronger of the two in the first half. Due mostly to those couple of mistakes and off weekend in Monaco. I remember the second half much more clearly.

[OO7]

Not sure if this has been posted yet: https://www.msn.com/...M?ocid=msedgntp

[Rumblestrip]

Not sure if this has been posted yet: https://www.msn.com/...M?ocid=msedgntp

 

So what was the "spicy" PU claim then? Just a ruse? 

[Cyanide]

So what was the "spicy" PU claim then? Just a ruse? 

 

A Mercedes engine customer team rejects claims that said engine was overpowered. 

 

Shocker. 

[MasterOfCoin]

A Mercedes engine customer team rejects claims that said engine was overpowered.

Shocker.

Seems more credible than listening to Horner, moaning about their engine every weekend...

[Timstr11]

Not sure if this has been posted yet: https://www.msn.com/...M?ocid=msedgntp

 

No surprise. As I said before, Mercedes happily entertained the idea of a 'rocket' engine. It's good publicty for the brand.

[PitViperRacing]

Seems more credible than listening to Horner, moaning about their engine every weekend...

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle of the two positions.

[Requiem84]

Perhaps it was smart marketing to draw away attention from the aero tricks.

Brazil still was the biggest outlier in terms of straightline speed.

[IceSpeed]

Not sure if this has been posted yet: https://www.msn.com/...M?ocid=msedgntp

I’m a little skeptical about that comment from a merc customer team. I believe they did test a higher PU mode (rightly so) in previous races with Bottas. It might have been to run the PU in that mode longer than customer teams but the amount of new PU’s is definitely suspect.

I don’t see anything wrong with it thought. RB could have done the same.

[gillesfan76]

It’s strange that people can’t see the quite obvious sarcasm from Toto about the “spicy” engine where he clearly thought sarcasm was a better strategy than get defensive like Horner usually does. Of course, Horner got defensive because the FIA indeed found that Red Bull were doing something strange with their rear wing. Still can’t decide which we saw/heard more about - actual footage almost every race of Red Bull having fixes on its rear wing, tape, carbon fibre reinforcement, and Red Bull’s DRS flapping away flacidly down the straight OR the writing of various pieces on Mercedes’ top speed.

[gillesfan76]

Maybe one or two people?  There is as much, if not more, noise in this topic from the other side of the fence.

 

The final lap was pretty much in line with some dodgy FIA decision making over many years.  No great surprise and nothing particularly new.

 

Naturally you will have people still fuming about it, and form the other side people very keen to excuse it away.

 

This. After what happened, it is natural for Lewis fans to be fuming about it. In fact I know people who aren’t Lewis fans, neutrals, Daniel Ricciardo fans, who think it was a total disgrace. But what I didn’t understand for a little while is why the other side, after initially being humble in victory, have gradually taken to being increasingly ungracious in victory. Especially many even empathised and acknowledged immediately after the race that Lewis was robbed of that win. So I didn’t understand at first why the same people have now turned around to try and create some sort of legitimacy around Max winning Abu Dhabi.

 

But I understand why now. Because for most people that illegitimacy doesn’t feel good. So even for the other side, I can understand that it must have sat with them heavily with a bad taste, knowing that their man wouldn’t have won the race and indeed the title, if it wasn’t for an illegitimate and unsporting decision by none other than the supposed impartial regulator. So instead of dealing internally with their own understanding that their man won a race illegitimately and reconciling that with the fact that he also drove an overall excellent season, they seek to try and legitimise the one thing that isn’t legitimate - the decision making and result of Abu Dhabi. They’ve tried to seek new and interesting meanings in the very simple and straight forward Art. 48.12. Asked why Mercedes didn’t pit Lewis. Said Lewis should have overtaken Perez faster. Pretended that Lewis could have defended better on the last lap. Because all those pretences make it a bit easier to swallow that the one who should have won, was robbed while their man was handed a race win that he did **** all to earn.

[mstar]

Seems more credible than listening to Horner, moaning about their engine every weekend...

People forget Horner and RB use this as a deflection to try and get FIA to peg mercedes back on its rear wing tests.  

Horner claiming it was "in another formula" was just BS to try and get some bad light on mercedes and make them seem the poor little underdogs with an old tired engine.  

[Cliff]

Seems more credible than listening to Horner, moaning about their engine every weekend...

 

It's not like Wolff and Lewis weren't doing the same for the first half of the season until the FIA nerfed the Honda from Silverstone onwards with a technical directive.

 

https://www.planetf1...a-engine-claim/

 

https://www.skysport...ia-back-to-back

 

https://www.planetf1...ngine-red-bull/

 

Meanwhile Mercedes tested updated engine parts with fake reliability concerns that for some magical reason only happened to Bottas his car. Suddenly had an insane engine advantage from Brazil onwards. Unless you think being 20kph quicker on a straight is all down to Hamiltons incredible willpower and skill   

[TheJag]

So get this right. In the first part of the season Max racks up pole after pole and cruises to victories. Merc never really posed a threat. Then in Brazil, with only 4 races left, Merc choose to take a risky penalty and bolt in a new PU, and suddenly, Hamilton flies by everyone including Max on the straights. The difference is so bad that during the last races RB can't even pull away with DRS.

But we are to believe that this has nothing to do with the thing that causes speed on the straights: the power unit. 

[as65p]

This. After what happened, it is natural for Lewis fans to be fuming about it. In fact I know people who aren’t Lewis fans, neutrals, Daniel Ricciardo fans, who think it was a total disgrace. But what I didn’t understand for a little while is why the other side, after initially being humble in victory, have gradually taken to being increasingly ungracious in victory. Especially many even empathised and acknowledged immediately after the race that Lewis was robbed of that win. So I didn’t understand at first why the same people have now turned around to try and create some sort of legitimacy around Max winning Abu Dhabi.

 

But I understand why now. Because for most people that illegitimacy doesn’t feel good. So even for the other side, I can understand that it must have sat with them heavily with a bad taste, knowing that their man wouldn’t have won the race and indeed the title, if it wasn’t for an illegitimate and unsporting decision by none other than the supposed impartial regulator. So instead of dealing internally with their own understanding that their man won a race illegitimately and reconciling that with the fact that he also drove an overall excellent season, they seek to try and legitimise the one thing that isn’t legitimate - the decision making and result of Abu Dhabi. They’ve tried to seek new and interesting meanings in the very simple and straight forward Art. 48.12. Asked why Mercedes didn’t pit Lewis. Said Lewis should have overtaken Perez faster. Pretended that Lewis could have defended better on the last lap. Because all those pretences make it a bit easier to swallow that the one who should have won, was robbed while their man was handed a race win that he did **** all to earn.

 

Well, it seems at least as hard to swallow that what some believe "should have" happened, did not actually happen.

 

Apparently the victim narrative makes it easier to cope, concentrating solely on what was outside the losers control, while strictly denying all other factors.

[mclara]

So get this right. In the first part of the season Max racks up pole after pole and cruises to victories. Merc never really posed a threat. Then in Brazil, with only 4 races left, Merc choose to take a risky penalty and bolt in a new PU, and suddenly, Hamilton flies by everyone including Max on the straights. The difference is so bad that during the last races RB can't even pull away with DRS.
But we are to believe that this has nothing to do with the thing that causes speed on the straights: the power unit.

Oh and you forget that RB was constantly screwing around with a rear wing they had problems with during those 4 races. When they finally got it working in AD they were just as fast as Mercedes on the straights...

Edited by mclara, 29 December 2021 - 14:10.

[TheJag]

Oh and you forget that RB was constantly screwing around with a rear wing they had problems with during those 4 races. When they finally got it working in AD they were just as fast as Mercedes on the straights...

 

No they weren't. In fact, during the final lap in AD Lewis nearly overtook Max on the straight with 40-something lap old hards vs Max's brand new softs. 

[gillesfan76]

Well, it seems at least as hard to swallow that what some believe "should have" happened, did not actually happen.

 

Apparently the victim narrative makes it easier to cope, concentrating solely on what was outside the losers control, while strictly denying all other factors.

 

The saddest thing is that you don’t sit on either man’s side, and only exist to take pop shots at the driver you don’t like and his fans. Hang around like a vulture to pick up the meagre bits after suffering through 7 titles. I saw what you said immediately after Silverstone, that Max shouldn’t have to take care and account for understeer from a top driver like Lewis, and I saw you after Jeddah where you contradicted Silverstone by saying that Lewis should have known better than to sit directly behind a top driver like Max.

 

I can respect the Lewis fans who stand for their driver; and I can respect the Max fans who stand for their driver; regardless of each’s opinion. But you? Well I think you better rush off and report this post of mine, but not before you read it first y’hear.

[gillesfan76]

So get this right. In the first part of the season Max racks up pole after pole and cruises to victories. Merc never really posed a threat. Then in Brazil, with only 4 races left, Merc choose to take a risky penalty and bolt in a new PU, and suddenly, Hamilton flies by everyone including Max on the straights. The difference is so bad that during the last races RB can't even pull away with DRS.

But we are to believe that this has nothing to do with the thing that causes speed on the straights: the power unit. 

 

You know what else causes (or loses) speed on the straights? Much, much more than the power unit? The aerodynamic drag.

[gillesfan76]

No they weren't. In fact, during the final lap in AD Lewis nearly overtook Max on the straight with 40-something lap old hards vs Max's brand new softs. 

 

Look at the race speeds achieved https://www.fia.com/...mspeeds_v01.pdf

[TheJag]

You know what else causes (or loses) speed on the straights? Much, much more than the power unit? The aerodynamic drag.

 

Again, Merc takes a risky penalty bolting in a new engine with only 4 races to go, suddenly flies by everyone on the straight and your explanation would be that RB, who's Honda until then had been on par, coincidentally made their car super draggy?

One off max speeds don't tell me much. What is telling is how the RB's couldn't pull away from Hamilton, even with DRS open. Or Hamilton reeling Max in on the straight with 40 year old hards vs brand new softs. 

Hamilton couldn't even win from p2. earlier in the season. In Brazil he put 10 seconds on Max, starting from 5th. Are we really having this discussion?

[MasterOfCoin]

Again, Merc takes a risky penalty bolting in a new engine with only 4 races to go, suddenly flies by everyone on the straight and your explanation would be that RB, who's Honda until then had been on par, coincidentally made their car super draggy?
One off max speeds don't tell me much. What is telling is how the RB's couldn't pull away from Hamilton, even with DRS open. Or Hamilton reeling Max in on the straight with 40 year old hards vs brand new softs.
Hamilton couldn't even win from p2. earlier in the season. In Brazil he put 10 seconds on Max, starting from 5th. Are we really having this discussion?

If one off Max speeds don't tell you much, a one off race shouldn't tell you anything either.....Merc has been slowly getting to grips and understanding what it takes to make the W12 go fast....that in combination with the engine modifications is what we were witnessing at the end of the season....if people want to see what real spicy engines look like and not some one off race but for a whole season, check out the Ducati MotoGp teams when they overtake other bikes...they would have to put Horner in straitjacket if he had to go up against that....🤣🤣🤣

[Dhillon]

You know what else causes (or loses) speed on the straights? Much, much more than the power unit? The aerodynamic drag.

Are you saying Mercedes was able to make their car much slippery without using any token ?

[as65p]

The saddest thing is that you don’t sit on either man’s side, and only exist to take pop shots at the driver you don’t like and his fans. Hang around like a vulture to pick up the meagre bits after suffering through 7 titles. I saw what you said immediately after Silverstone, that Max shouldn’t have to take care and account for understeer from a top driver like Lewis, and I saw you after Jeddah where you contradicted Silverstone by saying that Lewis should have known better than to sit directly behind a top driver like Max.

 

I can respect the Lewis fans who stand for their driver; and I can respect the Max fans who stand for their driver; regardless of each’s opinion. But you? Well I think you better rush off and report this post of mine, but not before you read it first y’hear.

No idea why you keep begging to get reported, but I'm the wrong guy to ask for it in any case. Haven't reported a single post in almost twenty years on the board, and even your worst efforts to turn this personal won't make me start. Maybe give it a try and report your own posts, if you so crave for the experience?

 

As for the bolded, it's not my problem if you insist on building strawmen from past arguments, can't help you with that either.

[P123]

Again, Merc takes a risky penalty bolting in a new engine with only 4 races to go, suddenly flies by everyone on the straight and your explanation would be that RB, who's Honda until then had been on par, coincidentally made their car super draggy?

One off max speeds don't tell me much. What is telling is how the RB's couldn't pull away from Hamilton, even with DRS open. Or Hamilton reeling Max in on the straight with 40 year old hards vs brand new softs. 

Hamilton couldn't even win from p2. earlier in the season. In Brazil he put 10 seconds on Max, starting from 5th. Are we really having this discussion?

Perez was able to pass Hamilton in both Brazil and Abu Dhabi, despite that supposed spicy engine that had folks hyper-ventilating in phoney incredulity and astonishment in equal measure (even posting intentionally misleading speed comparison charts which some lapped up withouth question... imagine that).  It's a thing called the tow, which would have had you seeing Hamilton 'reeling in' Verstappen in Abu Dhabi, but even that would seem an overly flowery description of the reality, which was Hamilton unable to pass or get alongside even with the tow.

[jjcale]

The saddest thing is that you don’t sit on either man’s side, and only exist to take pop shots at the driver you don’t like and his fans. Hang around like a vulture to pick up the meagre bits after suffering through 7 titles. I saw what you said immediately after Silverstone, that Max shouldn’t have to take care and account for understeer from a top driver like Lewis, and I saw you after Jeddah where you contradicted Silverstone by saying that Lewis should have known better than to sit directly behind a top driver like Max.

 

I can respect the Lewis fans who stand for their driver; and I can respect the Max fans who stand for their driver; regardless of each’s opinion. But you? Well I think you better rush off and report this post of mine, but not before you read it first y’hear.

 

He can report me too ... for repeating it. 

[P123]

He can report me too ... for repeating it. 

Ah, he's just a wounded warrior from 2007, and not alone in that.  I look at the attention the Merc 2022 topic has already received, and the mix of fans still bickering in this topic.  Hamilton matters.  Who will be the new 'Big Bad' when he leaves?  Rooting against somebody, as many do with Lewis, also keeps interest alive.

[Baddoer]

No they weren't. In fact, during the final lap in AD Lewis nearly overtook Max on the straight with 40-something lap old hards vs Max's brand new softs. 

How tires are relevant to top speed disadvantage? Perez overtook Hamilton who just overtook him with DRS.

[TheJag]

Perez was able to pass Hamilton in both Brazil and Abu Dhabi, despite that supposed spicy engine that had folks hyper-ventilating in phoney incredulity and astonishment in equal measure (even posting intentionally misleading speed comparison charts which some lapped up withouth question... imagine that).  It's a thing called the tow, which would have had you seeing Hamilton 'reeling in' Verstappen in Abu Dhabi, but even that would seem an overly flowery description of the reality, which was Hamilton unable to pass or get alongside even with the tow.

 

Where was that tow before he got his new engine? How does a tow get you from 5th to putting 10 seconds on a competitor you could hardly overtake from p2 before? 

I'm not saying Hamilton had some kind of illegal super engine but it was definitly spicy. They admitted as much. It gave him a big advantage.  

[gillesfan76]

Are you saying Mercedes was able to make their car much slippery without using any token ?

 

I think Mercedes was doing something interesting with their rear wing. I don’t think Red Bull’s complaints were completely without merit in that area and the potential new rear wing tests from the FIA could’ve reigned things in. Whatever they were doing, it was clever. I think Red Bull was trying to either copy or do something similar too, hence the tape fixes on their cracky wing, the magical flappy DRS etc.

 

The ‘spicy’ engine was a red herring thrown out by Toto. The amount of power required to go 10 kph faster is enormous, and no amount of habanero pepper sprinkled on is going to net that with the engine convergence that has occurred, let alone whatever the additional speed they were achieving in Brazil. But reducing drag can certainly net big top speed gains.

[P123]

Where was that tow before he got his new engine? How does a tow get you from 5th to putting 10 seconds on a competitor you could hardly overtake from p2 before? 

I'm not saying Hamilton had some kind of illegal super engine but it was definitly spicy. They admitted as much. It gave him a big advantage.  

Red Bull estimated it at 2 tenths, which is probably fair.  I'm not sure what other races it was used at, but the same DRS/ tow effect was not the same.  Horner did get people excited by it with his misuse of speed trap figures....  but Max was the slowest over the S/F line in both qualifying and race that weekend, indicating that as much as Merc nailed it (together with the new engine), that Red Bull may not have got everything right.

[as65p]

Ah, he's just a wounded warrior from 2007, and not alone in that.

That's always the last straw, when arguments are getting terse, isn't it? Quite funny how 2007 is brought up frequently, and not at all by those a unknowing observer would instinctively guess.

[mclara]

No they weren't. In fact, during the final lap in AD Lewis nearly overtook Max on the straight with 40-something lap old hards vs Max's brand new softs. 

Yes they were. And you should know there is more to top speed than PU.

[alframsey]

A Mercedes engine customer team rejects claims that said engine was overpowered. 

 

Shocker. 

People who claimed there was some magic engine in the car just didn't look at the numbers tbh, or wilfully ignored them to make it fit their own narrative.

[Requiem84]

People who claimed there was some magic engine in the car just didn't look at the numbers tbh, or wilfully ignored them to make it fit their own narrative.

I looked at the numbers in great detail and Brazil was a standout. After Brazil it suddenly fell back to normal parameters again.

Something interesting was going on in Brazil. Unclear whether it was the ICE, the RW or something else.

[gillesfan76]

As for the bolded, it's not my problem if you insist on building strawmen from past arguments, can't help you with that either.

 

Unfortunately for you, it’s not a strawman. It’s entirely relevant in questioning the validity of your opinions when it comes to anything Hamilton. You also made the mistake of being contradictory when discussing it with me.

 

Here you’ve defended Max that he should not have to leave room in case Lewis makes a mistake.

https://forums.autos...71#entry9537169

https://forums.autos...71#entry9537144

That’s a valid enough opinion in its own right except that is it really your opinion or is it only your opinion because of Hamilton. Notice I’m not asking a question.

 

Because then a mere few weeks later, you’ve turned 180 degrees about to somehow find a way to blame Lewis for being the victim.

https://forums.autos...68#entry9706601

https://forums.autos...68#entry9706669

https://forums.autos...68#entry9706629

You said, of Jeddah incident “Again, this did not come out of the blue. They both, in the few secs up to the contact, had made their intentions clear. Only one of them was going to get what he wanted. Is it really "unexpected" that the marks of acceptable measures were overstepped by one of them?”

But of course same applied in Silverstone. The way Lewis was battling Max on the opening corners, he also made his intentions clear. Only one of them was going to get what he wanted. Is it really “unexpected” what happened in Silverstone? Bringing me back to the point your argued as rubbish earlier - by your own argument, was what happened to Max at Silverstone really “unexpected”?

 

Sincere opinions can be wrong but still respectable. Insincere opinions, not so much. There’s a fine line between clever trolling posts, and becoming the court jester that no one takes seriously. Pay attention.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m sure there are appropriate threads where the on track incidents here can be discussed. That has nothing to do with Mercedes F1 team. Seeing as there’s only two days left of the year, and there’s already a new Mercedes 2022 thread, this thread is now closed.