33 replies to this topic

[Branislav]

https://fortune.com/...ehicles & Parts

 

 

Renault-Nissan Alliance is in huge minus. Nissan lost $6 billions and Renault $157 millions. How is this going to affect their race team in F1?

 

Honda earned more than Daimler let’s see if F1 engine can finally catch Mercedes

[New Britain]

https://fortune.com/...ehicles & Parts

 

 

Renault-Nissan Alliance is in huge minus. Nissan lost $6 billions and Renault $157 millions. How is this going to affect their race team in F1?

 

Honda earned more than Daimler let’s see if F1 engine can finally catch Mercedes

These numbers were for the most recent reported fiscal year, which would not have been calendar 2020. Also, it can be misleading to look at reported profits for any one year, as companies may take non-cash write-offs for reasons that do not reflect cash flow or financial strength.

[Branislav]

These numbers were for the most recent reported fiscal year, which would not have been calendar 2020. Also, it can be misleading to look at reported profits for any one year, as companies may take non-cash write-offs for reasons that do not reflect cash flow or financial strength.

 

Is this better?

 

https://www.forbes.c...0/#2d420ce5335d

 

May 13, 2020

 

Profits

 

Daimler $417m

Honda $4,3b

Renault $-157m

Ferrari $778m 

[ensign14]

https://fortune.com/...ehicles & Parts

 

 

Renault-Nissan Alliance is in huge minus. Nissan lost $6 billions and Renault $157 millions. How is this going to affect their race team in F1?

Got a bit tits up since the Japanese fitted Ghosn up.
 

[New Britain]

Is this better?

 

https://www.forbes.c...0/#2d420ce5335d

 

May 13, 2020

 

Profits

 

Daimler $417m

Honda $4,3b

Renault $-157m

Ferrari $778m 

Not really, no. For example, the biggest automotive firm, Toyota, is on a March fiscal year. The Forbes article, which was published on 13 May 2020, gives Toyota's results for the 12 months ended 31 March, 2020 - in other words, before the COVID pandemic had made much difference to the company's financial results. I have no idea what all the car manufacturer' results will be for calendar 2020 (or for the period ending when COVID is under control), but it is clear that, at least for real car manufacturers (including Honda, which is also on a March FY), calendar 2020 was bad.

The other thing, as I mentioned above, is that reported profits are different from cash flow or financial strength.

I'm not trying to dispute your point that the current financial positions of the car manufacturers would or should affect their commitment to racing, especially to the ridiculous spending in F1. My point was just that the numbers in your example were not a reliable guide.

[F1matt]

From a pure profit point of view 2020 is going to be a disaster for most car companies, they can PROBABLY get over that, the interesting thing will be the long term effect. Car companies rely on people changing their car every three years and after Covid becomes a thing of the past we will have to see if people go back to that habit of changing their car on a regular basis, from what we can see so far people (households) are saving more and reducing their debts, this maybe because they are restricted where they can go and what they can do but we could factor in people are scared of losing their income/jobs so this will have a knock on effect for the car industry. The industry also has to address the elephant in the room, Tesla, they have increased their sales during lockdown, it is unlikely that they will go back to ICE cars and looking at the price of a Tesla they must take customers from BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and JLR as opposed to Nissan and Renault? 

 

How will this affect the Motorsport budgets? MB have been increasing market share but their share price has more than halved in the last 10 years so all they have done is devalue their brand and their shareholders investment. They must be delighted. In respect of the F1 team they have already started to diversify and offload with Ineos and Toto Wolf taking a share and they may continue to slowly offload their investment. As for Renault /Nissan they have massive problems, the "marriage" isn't really working as ensign14 highlighted but rebranding as Alpine probably gives Renault the chance to sell or close the F1 project down without to much adverse publicity for the parent company. 

[Sash1]

You can find the Renault Group 1st half year of 2020 report on the Renault site.

The group made a 7.4 billion euro loss  in the first half year, with a 6.4 billion euro negative cash flow. As a result of a drop of 9.6 billion in sales.

And there is a huge risk (auto buyers defaulting on their payments when they loose their job or go bankruot) in the financing department which is hard to estimate at the moment. 

 

They had a better Q3, but still a bit worse than 2019. Full year results will come mid february.  You can see the Q3 when you log in for the stream of the presentation.

End of Q4 is pretty bad probably and so will Q1 of 2021.

[juicy sushi]

Got a bit tits up since the Japanese fitted Ghosn up.
 

Yeah, but quite a bit because of his business plan, so swings and roundabouts.  The business is in trouble, they have a lot of hard decisions to make going forward, and need very badly to do a much better job of using each others' skills in productive ways.

[Branislav]

https://www.caranddr...cwIdzWr0FFRa5_Y

 

Is on the verge Honda-GM Alliance?

[Stephane]

Noh, those sharing are frequent

[azza200]

I wish F1 was open enough for teams too enter like they did in the 90's or 80's. Like have seperate championship for the non manufactured teams and give the lower teams they had that in F1 when there was turbos and NA engines. Why not do it just for the non manufacture team its doable and would maybe get more private teams back in F1 

[juicy sushi]

Because they want one set of engine rules, and the rules demanded are too technically complex and expensive for anyone except very large manufacturers to enter.  

 

There's plenty of good series beyond F1 who offer excellent racing with smaller teams having a fighting chance, you just need to seek them out.

[Alfisti]

They will recover, pent up demand is absolutely incredible, they are limited by supply. I've been trying to buy a sports car since March and prices have risen 15 to 20pc on the used market, it is absolutely brutal.

[Branislav]

 

 

Looks like Toyota doesn't need F1 promo

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe they do, seeing as so many people are searching for what they hell they are.

[F1matt]

Maybe they do, seeing as so many people are searching for what they hell they are.

 

your interpretation of the above graphic is people googling the brand to see what they make instead of perusing models and prices etc. 

[PayasYouRace]

your interpretation of the above graphic is people googling the brand to see what they make instead of perusing models and prices etc. 

 

It's not "my interpretation". It's my hint that google searches can't be taken at face value.

[F1matt]

It's not "my interpretation". It's my hint that google searches can't be taken at face value.

 

 

If only google had a tool such as Google trends which could drill down into the data. Maybe one day.

[jcbc3]

 

 

 

Looks like Toyota doesn't need F1 promo

 

But Tesla absolutely does then...

[FLB]

 

 

Looks like Toyota doesn't need F1 promo

Whta amazes me is...

 

 

Alfa Romeo in China?!?

[jcbc3]

yeah, not sure that map is reliable.

[BRG]

That graphic is hilarious.  It not only completely omits major markets like Germany,  UK, Spain and most of E. Europe, but it includes wonderful ideas like Lexus being the brand of choice in Cambodia, whilst the Ethiopians all favour Alpine.  Meanwhile in Uzbekistan, they are keen on Daewoo, which is sad for them since GM bought that marque and turned it into Chevrolet years ago.

[Branislav]

But Tesla absolutely does then...

How you expect Tesla to enter in ICE motorsport?

[Branislav]

yeah, not sure that map is reliable.

'Most searched' doesn't mean 'most sells'

[jcbc3]

Do you really believe that Alfa Romeo is the most looked for car in China?

[PayasYouRace]

Well it's China so who knows what data whoever made that graphic was even allowed to have. Probably not Google.

[Mat13]

That graphic is hilarious. It not only completely omits major markets like Germany, UK, Spain and most of E. Europe, but it includes wonderful ideas like Lexus being the brand of choice in Cambodia, whilst the Ethiopians all favour Alpine. Meanwhile in Uzbekistan, they are keen on Daewoo, which is sad for them since GM bought that marque and turned it into Chevrolet years ago.

It’s colour coded- so the UK mad much of Europe apparently searched for BMW above all others, which is probably about right. What’s more concerning is that the OP is using this map and annual profits to try and gain and understanding of the fortunes of multi national companies...

[Tombstone]

Well if you go by most searches maybe a team should call themselves youporn or pornhub...

[NixxxoN]

Do you really believe that Alfa Romeo is the most looked for car in China?

Why not.

Alfa Romeo makes nice looking cars that maybe appeal to chinese public, and it's a fact the chinese themselves know their own cars are mostly crap or not good enough

[ensign14]

It's the one country where Alfa Romeo is a step above the local output in reliability.

[pdac]

Many years ago when I started working in market research, I was given an example about the usefulness of data. A graph of personal income by shoe size was presented. It clearly showed that there was a direct relationship between the two (the larger a persons shoe size was, the larger the average personal income was). What it failed to show was the analysis by gender - which would have shown that men larger feet and larger incomes. So in itself, correct, but failing to show identify key underlying reason.

 

The point was that taking data in isolation or out of context limits its usefulness and any analysis that you do on that data might be misleading or inaccurate, Moreover, drawing any conclusions from that data will only ever be valid within the limited context of that data (and most of the time will be useless).

[smitten]

Why not.

Alfa Romeo makes nice looking cars that maybe appeal to chinese public, and it's a fact the chinese themselves know their own cars are mostly crap or not good enough

Well, according to this list in 2019 Alfa weren't even in the top 95 brands by sales in China. If they are nice looking cars that appeal to the Chinese then people are only looking at them; not buying.

 

Side note of the 'fact' of them knowing their own cars are crap or not good enough;  lots of home grown manufacturers in that list and lots of copies of European models i(licenced or otherwise) get sold.   Crap or not, people are still willing to buy them.

[BRG]

It’s colour coded- so the UK mad much of Europe apparently searched for BMW above all others, which is probably about right. What’s more concerning is that the OP is using this map and annual profits to try and gain and understanding of the fortunes of multi national companies...

Then BMW must be gloating over their domination of the markets in Botswana and Madagascar.

[NixxxoN]

Well, according to this list in 2019 Alfa weren't even in the top 95 brands by sales in China. If they are nice looking cars that appeal to the Chinese then people are only looking at them; not buying.

 

Side note of the 'fact' of them knowing their own cars are crap or not good enough;  lots of home grown manufacturers in that list and lots of copies of European models i(licenced or otherwise) get sold.   Crap or not, people are still willing to buy them.

I dont know about Alfa, but the average chinese can't afford an european car and they only can buy a subpar chinese cheap car which may cost half the price or even less. But they still know their own cars are not as good and they may desire an european one or whatever.

Also japanese cars are selling well there... since china and japan hate each other, tells a lot about how the chinese value their own cars.

Edited by NixxxoN, 07 February 2021 - 16:33.