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#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 16:18

I would be very interested in TNFers' comments on a new area of OldRacingCars.com that I have started to publish today.

 

People have asked why it isn't possible to access full Formula One results on OldRacingCars.com, despite being able to see each car's results when you look at its race history.  After years of making unconvincing excuses, I have started today publishing the full results of each season, starting with 1966.  My intention is to show each and every car that was present at each race weekend, whether it was a race car, a T-car, or even an unused spare.  In a few cases, it has even been possible to identify cars that were brought along just for display purposes.  For each car, I have tried to make sure the engine is correctly identified, something that is a greater challenge in 1966 and should get simpler as I go further through.

 

Quite a few of you here share my interest in this period, so I would welcome any comments, corrections and additions.  

 

It starts here:

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1966/



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#2 jcbc3

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 16:41

I would be very interested in TNFers' comments on a new area of OldRacingCars.com that I have started to publish today.

 

...

Quite a few of you here share my interest in this period, so I would welcome any comments, corrections and additions.  

 

 

 

I have no corrections or additions but I do have a comment.

Wonderful. Keep at it!



#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 17:46

Hmm "World Drivers Championship".  What's a World Driver?  They are Formula 1 car drivers.  It's the Formula 1 Drivers World Championship.    :smoking:

 

Otherwise - as above - wonderful.

 

DCN



#4 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 18:25

Oh no, Doug :eek: Don't open THAT can of worms again! :eek: :eek:

 

 

Allen, it's a great idea, and should be an excellent resource. I have one suggestion: in the championship points table, I would list only the top ten like you do with the other series you cover - looks more tidy, and no one will come to your site to find out who was 14th in points in 1966, anyway.



#5 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 20:05

OK, technically the World Championship of Drivers.  I went for the more commonly-used expression, and should probably change that. But definitely not called the Formula 1 Drivers World Championship, not in 1966.  I think Doug may be being mischievous.  

 

Yes, Michael, top 10 only might be better, but there were so many interesting car/engine combinations further down, I just kept going.   



#6 E1pix

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 20:18

Kudos for developing this... and to Rob Ryder!

#7 10kDA

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 20:27

 in the championship points table, I would list only the top ten like you do with the other series you cover - looks more tidy, and no one will come to your site to find out who was 14th in points in 1966, anyway.

I don't know about this. I was looking for Bob Anderson's place in the 1964 standings a couple of days ago. 11th, same as Lando Norris in 2019.


Edited by 10kDA, 11 January 2021 - 20:33.


#8 10kDA

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 20:31

After looking at the 1966 page I can say only - Well done, Allen! Thank you for your efforts, and thanks to all others involved as well.



#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 20:44

This is tremendous stuff - thank you Allen and team.

On championship points tables: I prefer always to see them listed in full, as then it’s fairly simple to check for errors by adding up all the scores and seeing if the total matches the number of championship rounds multiplied by the total points available per round.

#10 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 21:11

This is tremendous stuff - thank you Allen and team.

On championship points tables: I prefer always to see them listed in full, as then it’s fairly simple to check for errors by adding up all the scores and seeing if the total matches the number of championship rounds multiplied by the total points available per round.

 

Then I do hope you'll enjoy the SCCA National tables, where drivers' best six results out of nine or ten or eleven races counted, but they could include within that two races from outside their division.  :)



#11 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 21:19

... or the 1973 European Championship for Formula 2 Drivers (a title Doug will like...  ;)). If I recall correctly, a driver could collect points in about a dozen "Grade A" events, and in the first four "Grade B" events he started, provided they were all held in a different country!!



#12 10kDA

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 22:23

... or the 1973 European Championship for Formula 2 Drivers (a title Doug will like...   ;)). If I recall correctly, a driver could collect points in about a dozen "Grade A" events, and in the first four "Grade B" events he started, provided they were all held in a different country!!

FIA: "Article 6.5(f) In the event of a tie, a hand of Fizzbin will be played to determine a winner. Called it! 1-2-3 No Changes."



#13 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 23:13

As has been said in no end of threads in these forums often the car listed was not the one that appeared. 

So a thankless can of worms. Though should be quite interesting, if just on official entries and results that should not cause any grief.

You are right is saying that many pieces of history that came and went in the last 45 years. Most totally [sometimes gladly] forgotten. Some with potential and little money.



#14 Lola5000

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 04:02

Wonderful reference Web site ,keep it coming .



#15 john aston

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 07:52

Nye syndrome has made my eyebrow twitch at 'qualifying ' - 'practice' ? But that's a minor nitpick - I am sure it will be invaluable. Over the last few years I've needed to find full results of many Grands  Prix i that era and it has been surprisingly difficult to find detail away from the winners. I like the  complete entry being shown too - after this passage of time I tend to glaze over about  the performance of a star like Brabham or Clark- it's the no hopers in eighteenth , an heroic 10 seconds off the pace in an awful car that are really intriguing 



#16 Stephen W

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 08:05

This is tremendous stuff - thank you Allen and team.

On championship points tables: I prefer always to see them listed in full, as then it’s fairly simple to check for errors by adding up all the scores and seeing if the total matches the number of championship rounds multiplied by the total points available per round.

 

Beware making assumptions. Not all races had six finishers! 



#17 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 08:14

Indeed, Steve, but obviously one will usually be aware of these anomalies when compiling or checking points tables.  ;)

#18 2F-001

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 11:15

I haven't had a moment to take a look yet** , Allen - but looking forward to a good browse...

 

I, too, baulked for a moment at Doug's comment - but then decided I had (probably) trodden in some irony.

 

(** Has anyone else found that, during these months of lockdowns, there simply aren't enough hours in the day?)  



#19 realracer200

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 11:33

Oh no, Doug :eek: Don't open THAT can of worms again! :eek: :eek:

 

 

Allen, it's a great idea, and should be an excellent resource. I have one suggestion: in the championship points table, I would list only the top ten like you do with the other series you cover - looks more tidy, and no one will come to your site to find out who was 14th in points in 1966, anyway.

 

What are you talking about? I for example am interesting who finished 14th in 1966.



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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 12:44

What are you talking about? I for example am interesting who finished 14th in 1966.

And we have a fascinating and informative thread about one who finished joint 17th.

 

https://forums.autos...hn-taylor-fire/



#21 Michael Ferner

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 13:16

Yeah, right, but that wasn't what I was trying to convey. I mean, people go to Allen's site because they want to know which car ran in which race, and the championship tables are "only" there to provide context. If you "just" want to know who was 14th that year, you're probably going to check with wikipedia or like sources, right? Of course, if you all think it's okay that the tables are complete, then who am I to protest - I just thought it looked nicer and tidier with a "short" list, that's all. :)



#22 Charlieman

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 13:35

In 1979, Jean-Pierre Jabouille's win was worth 13th place in the WDC. In 1980, his second career win was worth 8th place.



#23 Michael Ferner

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 15:21

Bah, humbug!

 

I respectfully disagree - a Grand Prix win is "worth" so much more than a 13th or even an 8th place in the WDC. Litmus test: Name any 8th place finisher without a GP win!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Still waiting...



#24 Stephen W

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 09:48

Bah, humbug!

 

I respectfully disagree - a Grand Prix win is "worth" so much more than a 13th or even an 8th place in the WDC. Litmus test: Name any 8th place finisher without a GP win!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Still waiting...

 

The waiting is over, Chris Amon.



#25 dgs

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 10:27

To have full results and practice times, plus alternative practice cars is just what is needed.

 

Its always better to have the full (and in this instance) accurate information



#26 Charlieman

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 10:38

I respectfully disagree - a Grand Prix win is "worth" so much more than a 13th or even an 8th place in the WDC. Litmus test: Name any 8th place finisher without a GP win!

Worth is one of those nuanced words, Michael. There's an English expression about people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing   ;)

 

My intended point was that a WDC table of the top ten would have omitted J-P J's win, significant and well deserved to him and historical historic as the first for a turbocharged F1 car.

 

Edited for correct English usage.


Edited by Charlieman, 13 January 2021 - 15:04.


#27 philippe7

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 14:04

Over the last few years I've needed to find full results of many Grands  Prix i that era and it has been surprisingly difficult to find detail away from the winners.

Allen is of course making a terrific job by embarking on this new venture, however for the record the ancient "silhouette" archive is still available online, and quite comprehensive ( clicking on the race initial at the top of each year's point table links you to detailed results of each Grand Prix )

 

http://www.silhouet..../1966/f166.html

 

 

edit : the main page is there http://www.silhouet....e/f1/title.html


Edited by philippe7, 13 January 2021 - 14:08.


#28 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 14:51

WDC table?  WDC points?    :mad:

 

It should plainly - in English - be DWC - DWC - DWC...

 

NDC



#29 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 15:31

(...) 
NDC


:lol:

#30 Paul Taylor

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 16:08

ORC is a wonderful resource which I refer to often and this a great addition  :clap:  Yes, there are other sites where you can get race results, but to see the chassis numbers and the additional cars used/unused in practice along with their race result is a huge bonus for me.



#31 DCapps

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 19:12

As ever, excellent work from Allen and those he has enlisted for his team. Well done, Allen.



#32 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 13:41

I have added one more season:

 

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1967/

 

Thanks to everyone for their comments, both on this thread and directly.  One suggestion was that I detail the sources I used, so I have added the exact references for the principal sources for each race.  

 

1968 will take a bit longer as there is more to check before it's ready.  



#33 charles r

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 15:21

Fabulous Allen, thank you. 3 litre heaven and so much of it!



#34 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 January 2021 - 14:25

I said the next one would take a while, but I wasn't expecting it to take 2 weeks!

 

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1968/

 

Here I had reports from Autosport, Motor Sport, Motoring News, Speedworld International, Sport Auto, Auto Italiana and Race Report to compare, and I picked up a few extra T-cars that I had not previously noticed.

 

The main puzzle left from this season is what happened to Matra MS11-02 and which of the MS11s Beltoise drove at Monza.  .  



#35 guiporsche

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Posted 30 January 2021 - 14:41

Matra Toute l'Histoire, Toutes les Victoires by Dominique Vincent has a chassis-by-chassis history appendix - I can't vouch for its accuracy and don't have the book but can consult it at the national library. Let me know, even if it might take a couple of weeks until I go there again.



#36 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 January 2021 - 16:13

I do have that book, but I lent it to Richard so do not have it to hand at the moment.  



#37 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 03 February 2021 - 23:41

I said the next one would take a while, but I wasn't expecting it to take 2 weeks!

 

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1968/

 

Here I had reports from Autosport, Motor Sport, Motoring News, Speedworld International, Sport Auto, Auto Italiana and Race Report to compare, and I picked up a few extra T-cars that I had not previously noticed.

 

The main puzzle left from this season is what happened to Matra MS11-02 and which of the MS11s Beltoise drove at Monza.  .  

 

The Matra book by D. Vincent has Beltoise using MS11-01. But a much older book, La Puissance et la Gloire by Frédéric Delaroche lists MS11-02. In my database, I have MS11-02, following Delaroche, but there is a remark that -01 has also been seen, probably in magazines around that time. I still have to take some time to work through Vincent's book, but now that I'm retired.......

 

D. Vincent also mentions the fate of MS11-02. In 1969 it received an MS12 engine, which meant truncating the rear of the chassis. After that it was called either MS12 or MS11/12. It has been used for 3 hillclimbs in 1970, Mont-Doré (Beltoise), Beaujolais (Pescarolo) and Côte D'Urcy (Beltoise). Three victories. I have to admit, this was completely new to me and I couldn't find any mention of this in Delaroche's book.

There is also a mention of a test by Jackie Stewart in 1969, and the remark that it is now in the Musée Romorantin.

 

I also checked Paul Sheldon's Milestones behind the Marques, which also describes the Matra-engined Matra's. He lists MS11-02 for Monza and adds that this was it's last appearance. No mention of hillclimbs again.


Edited by Henk Vasmel, 03 February 2021 - 23:52.


#38 Glengavel

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Posted 04 February 2021 - 07:59

I think Jackie tried the MS11 at a race in 1968; in 1969 there were no MS11s entered in GPs.



#39 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 04 February 2021 - 10:45

I think Jackie tried the MS11 at a race in 1968; in 1969 there were no MS11s entered in GPs.

I think a private test was meant, not during a GP weekend. He did try an MS11 in 1968, at the British GP.



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#40 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 February 2021 - 11:23

The Matra book by D. Vincent has Beltoise using MS11-01. But a much older book, La Puissance et la Gloire by Frédéric Delaroche lists MS11-02. In my database, I have MS11-02, following Delaroche, but there is a remark that -01 has also been seen, probably in magazines around that time. I still have to take some time to work through Vincent's book, but now that I'm retired.......

 

D. Vincent also mentions the fate of MS11-02. In 1969 it received an MS12 engine, which meant truncating the rear of the chassis. After that it was called either MS12 or MS11/12. It has been used for 3 hillclimbs in 1970, Mont-Doré (Beltoise), Beaujolais (Pescarolo) and Côte D'Urcy (Beltoise). Three victories. I have to admit, this was completely new to me and I couldn't find any mention of this in Delaroche's book.

There is also a mention of a test by Jackie Stewart in 1969, and the remark that it is now in the Musée Romorantin.

 

I also checked Paul Sheldon's Milestones behind the Marques, which also describes the Matra-engined Matra's. He lists MS11-02 for Monza and adds that this was it's last appearance. No mention of hillclimbs again.

 

I am confident that by the end of the 1968 season, the only MS11s left were MS11-01 and MS11-03.  My difficulty is what happened to MS11-02.  

 

The car that was fitted with the MS12 engine and used in hillclimbs was MS11-01.  We can be confident about that as this car was retained by Matra and is usually on display at the Musée Matra, still with its MS12 engine, and wearing the number 90 from Beltoise' victory at Mont Dore.

 

The other surviving MS11 was stored for some years and then sold to Antoine Raffaëlli together with other F1 Matras, and they have mostly stayed together as a collection.  This MS11 has the chassis plate MS11-02 but is widely reported to be MS11-03.  The shape of the fuel tanks was different between MS11-02 and MS11-03, so this should be possible to confirm quite easily.  

 

It is possible that the damage to MS11-02 in Beltoise' accident at the Nürburgring was greater than was originally realised, and the car was replaced.  If that theory is true, Beltoise' car at Monza must have been MS11-01.  It could be that Vincent has confirmed this and corrected the data in Delaroche's book.  If this was a normal year, I would ask Dominique Vincent this question at Retromobile next week, but this is not a normal year.  I will try to get in touch with him via Autodiva.



#41 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 04 February 2021 - 17:06

I am confident that by the end of the 1968 season, the only MS11s left were MS11-01 and MS11-03.  My difficulty is what happened to MS11-02.  

 

The car that was fitted with the MS12 engine and used in hillclimbs was MS11-01.  We can be confident about that as this car was retained by Matra and is usually on display at the Musée Matra, still with its MS12 engine, and wearing the number 90 from Beltoise' victory at Mont Dore.

 

The other surviving MS11 was stored for some years and then sold to Antoine Raffaëlli together with other F1 Matras, and they have mostly stayed together as a collection.  This MS11 has the chassis plate MS11-02 but is widely reported to be MS11-03.  The shape of the fuel tanks was different between MS11-02 and MS11-03, so this should be possible to confirm quite easily.  

 

It is possible that the damage to MS11-02 in Beltoise' accident at the Nürburgring was greater than was originally realised, and the car was replaced.  If that theory is true, Beltoise' car at Monza must have been MS11-01.  It could be that Vincent has confirmed this and corrected the data in Delaroche's book.  If this was a normal year, I would ask Dominique Vincent this question at Retromobile next week, but this is not a normal year.  I will try to get in touch with him via Autodiva.

 

I dived into the Vincent book some more, and I found that MS11-02 was damaged (suspension pick-up) at the Nürburgring, so it could not easily be repaired. That's why MS11-01 took over at Monza. Fate of MS11-01 is described as being in a private collection. 

Also I saw that MS11-02 is described as being modified into MS11/12-01 (which I missed yesterday), so that could be the misunderstanding about it being -01.

I also happened to find back my age old copy books (which I ceased to use in 1992 when I started doing my data collection on a PC). For Monza '68, the Beltoise car is MS11-01 according to L' Automobile and MS11-02 according to 3 separate books (not specified).

I agree that asking the man himself will be the only way to find out what he considers the truth, and how sure he is about things.

Nice puzzle, this.



#42 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 February 2021 - 13:07

I dived into the Vincent book some more, and I found that MS11-02 was damaged (suspension pick-up) at the Nürburgring, so it could not easily be repaired. That's why MS11-01 took over at Monza. Fate of MS11-01 is described as being in a private collection. 

Also I saw that MS11-02 is described as being modified into MS11/12-01 (which I missed yesterday), so that could be the misunderstanding about it being -01.

I also happened to find back my age old copy books (which I ceased to use in 1992 when I started doing my data collection on a PC). For Monza '68, the Beltoise car is MS11-01 according to L' Automobile and MS11-02 according to 3 separate books (not specified).

I agree that asking the man himself will be the only way to find out what he considers the truth, and how sure he is about things.

Nice puzzle, this.

 

Thanks Henk.  Very helpful.  



#43 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:07

I have added another season of results:

 

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1969/

 

This time I have used Autosport, Motor Sport, Motoring News, Sport Auto, and Eddie Guba's Race Report 3.  Speedworld International had ceased publication, and neither Autocar nor Motor at this time contained any chassis details.  



#44 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 19:57

It's been a few weeks, but I have been busy.  I have added 1970 and 1971:
 
https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1970/

For 1970, I used Autosport, Motor Sport, Motoring News, Sport Auto, Motor, Autocar and The Motor Racing Year No 2.

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1971/

For 1971, I used Autosport, Motor Sport, Motoring News, Autocourse and The Motor Racing Year No 3. I found that Sport Auto, Motor and Autocar weren't adding anything new.


Now I have a question. Does anyone know who "M.R.A." would have been in Motoring News 1972 GP reports from Argentina and South Africa? Andrew Marriot (ARM, not MRA) reported for the rest of the season.

#45 arttidesco

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Posted 16 March 2021 - 00:31

 Of course, if you all think it's okay that the tables are complete, then who am I to protest - I just thought it looked nicer and tidier with a "short" list, that's all. :)

 

Koennte man das veleicht unter Deutsche ordentlichkeit verstehen ?



#46 Roger Clark

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Posted 16 March 2021 - 07:56



Now I have a question. Does anyone know who "M.R.A." would have been in Motoring News 1972 GP reports from Argentina and South Africa? Andrew Marriot (ARM, not MRA) reported for the rest of the season.

As the Motor Sport reports were signed ARM, it would be astonishing if it wasn’t him. 



#47 GazChed

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Posted 16 March 2021 - 08:13

I wonder if it was simply when Andrew Marriot was reporting from the Southern Hemisphere he used MRA rather than ARM ?

#48 dgs

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 09:18

Allan Brown research on spare cars at Grand Prix's is very impressive, and I look forward to each year being posted.

His research on 1970 Canadian Grand Prix with the No 22 car, March 701-6, entered for Jacques Coutage  was an entry/driver I had never heard of.

What  magazine/book has the details? 



#49 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 11:14

I too have never heard of Jacques Coutage. However I have heard of Jacques Couture, a well-known Canadian driver of the period and winner of the 1971 Canadian Formula B Championship. It is Couture who appears in Allen’s Canadian GP listing as potentially down to drive March 701-6. Here’s how DSJ put it in his Canadian GP report in Motor Sport:

... while tucked away in the corner were the bare bones of March 701/6 which local driver Jacques Couture was hoping to borrow, but a shortage of Cosworth V8 engines ruled out any such frivolity.



#50 dgs

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 12:46

I too have never heard of Jacques Coutage. However I have heard of Jacques Couture, a well-known Canadian driver of the period and winner of the 1971 Canadian Formula B Championship. It is Couture who appears in Allen’s Canadian GP listing as potentially down to drive March 701-6. Here’s how DSJ put it in his Canadian GP report in Motor Sport:
 

Thanks Tim.

My mistake on spelling of surname