10972 replies to this topic

[Branislav]

https://sports.yahoo...-091700635.html

 

 

"I do think we can make a big step," Max said.

"But I also expect others to have a step, so I just hope that that ours is a bit bigger than the others."

 

Yo Orange army,

 

Are we ready to dethrone mighty one Mercedes?

 

LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOO

[Branislav]

‘Whole world’ waiting for Max v Lewis-Jos The Boss

https://www.planetf1...lewis-hamilton/

 

 

Jos just lit the fire

[BRG]

He hasn't challenged Lewis yet, so why should it be different in 2021? There is no way that Honda - who are quitting and will be putting in the minimum possible effort - or a time-expired Adrian Newey are going to produce a car good enough to beat Mercedes.  Another miserable year for Max who must be kicking himself for signing that contract so early.   And now he has Alonso to worry about as well.

[Goron3]

He hasn't challenged Lewis yet, so why should it be different in 2021? There is no way that Honda - who are quitting and will be putting in the minimum possible effort - or a time-expired Adrian Newey are going to produce a car good enough to beat Mercedes. Another miserable year for Max who must be kicking himself for signing that contract so early. And now he has Alonso to worry about as well.

There is a pretty sizeable Honda upgrade coming this year. Not just to match Mercedes ERS delivery but also within the ICE. Will Honda match Mercedes? Unlikely. But it's as close as anyone will get imo.

[PlayboyRacer]

‘Whole world’ waiting for Max v Lewis-Jos The Boss
https://www.planetf1...lewis-hamilton/


Jos just lit the fire

Jos just claimed there that perhaps the Red Bull was worse than the Ferrari. Are you actually taking anything he says seriously? Lol.

Talk is cheap. And there is plenty of that there from old Jos.

[Marklar]

Same procedure as every year

[Branislav]

He hasn't challenged Lewis yet, so why should it be different in 2021? 

It is time

 

 

 

There is no way that Honda - who are quitting and will be putting in the minimum possible effort - or a time-expired Adrian Newey are going to produce a car good enough to beat Mercedes.  Another miserable year for Max who must be kicking himself for signing that contract so early.   And now he has Alonso to worry about as well.

Honda will be putting EVERYTHING to clinch the title in her final year

[shure]

It is time

 

Honda will be putting EVERYTHING to clinch the title in her final year

and others will be holding back I presume?

[Branislav]

and others will be holding back I presume?

Others (Mercedes) will have to think also on 2022

 

So they will not had that everything like Honda

[Marklar]

What exactly has Merc to think about 2022 engine-wise? If anything it's the other way around: since Honda is not there in 2022 they might be less likely to keep develop later in the year.

I can see Red Bull getting closer, especially if the floor rule changes hit Merc more. But they had a head start again, so they can probably compensate that.

[Branislav]

What exactly has Merc to think about 2022 engine-wise? If anything it's the other way around: since Honda is not there in 2022 they might be less likely to keep develop later in the year.

I can see Red Bull getting closer, especially if the floor rule changes hit Merc more. But they had a head start again, so they can probably compensate that.

I mean Merc will be busy with this and next year's car. Honda will not. I think Honda will want to gone in style, so I expect a little more. A bunny from hat

Edited by Branislav, 11 January 2021 - 20:54.

[Branislav]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clatter]

I mean Merc will be busy with this and next year's car. Honda will not. I think Honda will want to gone in style, so I expect a little more. A bunny from hat

 

The Merc engine division is no different to the Honda engine division in that regard. It's the team that have to worry about the car, and RB will also be busy with next years car.

[Nacho]

[img]https://i.postimg.cc...pszZj/sesir.jpg[/

That is a piece of jewelry...

Edited by Nacho, 11 January 2021 - 22:31.

[Branislav]

The Merc engine division is no different to the Honda engine division in that regard. It's the team that have to worry about the car, and RB will also be busy with next years car.

 I think Honda will ask Red Bull to go all in

 

[Clatter]

 I think Honda will ask Red Bull to go all in

 

 

You think they have been holding back?

[shure]

Others (Mercedes) will have to think also on 2022

 

So they will not had that everything like Honda

Honda, like everyone else, will be allowed to introduce a new PU before the start of the season.  After that they, like everyone else, will not be allowed to make any further performance upgrades this year.  So what is it exactly they can do in 2021 that other manufacturers will not be able to do because they are "distracted" by 2022?  

[Branislav]

You think they have been holding back?

Most important race which determines the rest of a season is the first race. If Red Bull is close Honda will require "Mission: all in" till the end.

 

It's not like Mission: Impossible with Tom Cruise

[Requiem84]

Most important race which determines the rest of a season is the first race. If Red Bull is close Honda will require "Mission: all in" till the end.

 

It's not like Mission: Impossible with Tom Cruise

 

Honda can't change the PU during the season, so what does 'all in' mean for you?

[Branislav]

Honda can't change the PU during the season, so what does 'all in' mean for you?

As I said all in from Red Bull. And for Honda are you sure they won't be permitted to play with PU

[taran]

I mean Merc will be busy with this and next year's car. Honda will not. I think Honda will want to gone in style, so I expect a little more. A bunny from hat

 

I think you have never experienced a project ending (prematurely)? Because it never sees everyone involved putting in extra effort to go out with a bang. Instead, everyone is focused on their next job/assignment with the the brightest ones jumping ship first, leaving the mediocre time-servers behind....

[Branislav]

I think you have never experienced a project ending (prematurely)? Because it never sees everyone involved putting in extra effort to go out with a bang. Instead, everyone is focused on their next job/assignment with the the brightest ones jumping ship first, leaving the mediocre time-servers behind....

They(Honda) say they hurried up all developments and parts who were originally designed for 2022 to be put into this and final year's engine.

[Branislav]

Just some of the examples:

 

Dodge pulled out from Nascar after 2012 in which they took the title with Brad

Michelin pulled out of F1 after 2006 in which they took the title with Renault

Renault as engine supplier pulled out of F1 after 1997 in which they took the title with Williams

[SenorSjon]

Just some of the examples:

 

Dodge pulled out from Nascar after 2012 in which they took the title with Brad

Michelin pulled out of F1 after 2006 in which they took the title with Renault

Renault as engine supplier pulled out of F1 after 1997 in which they took the title with Williams

 

Renault continued as Mechachrome and didn't win in 1998... 

[Burai]

 

Michelin pulled out of F1 after 2006 in which they took the title with Renault

Renault as engine supplier pulled out of F1 after 1997 in which they took the title with Williams

 

Bad examples. They were already winning titles before they announced they were pulling out. Renault dominated the sport for six years. Honda are so far from that level it's not even funny.

[Branislav]

Bad examples. They were already winning titles before they announced they were pulling out. Renault dominated the sport for six years. Honda are so far from that level it's not even funny.

And 2009 if Honda stayed one more year?

[TheAviator]

Just some of the examples:

Dodge pulled out from Nascar after 2012 in which they took the title with Brad
Michelin pulled out of F1 after 2006 in which they took the title with Renault
Renault as engine supplier pulled out of F1 after 1997 in which they took the title with Williams

Michelin also won 2005 title.

Renault won 4 WDCs and finished 2nd once in 5 seasons before 1997.

So in those cases we see that winning team decided to go out, but in Hondas case they are not winning engine supplier. Their engine is solid nowadays, but Merc is still benchmark, while in case if Michelin and Renault this was other way around.

Michelin and Renault were going from the top, and we are led to believe Honda will make crazy engineering and financial push for one more season before they go in bid to win championship and finish 8 years of Merc dominance? Ill believe it when I see it.

Edited by TheAviator, 12 January 2021 - 09:34.

[Branislav]

Renault continued as Mechachrome and didn't win in 1998... 

Why they changed name? Money wasn't there so wasn't the results

[PlayboyRacer]

Michelin pulled out of F1 after 2006 in which they took the title with Renault
Renault as engine supplier pulled out of F1 after 1997 in which they took the title with Williams

Terrible examples to be blunt.

[Ivanhoe]

Nice start for a team thread 

[Burai]

And 2009 if Honda stayed one more year?

 

No, because the BGP001/RA109 wasn't a concerted push to pull out with a bang, but just a really good car concept created by a team that had no idea that their parent company was going to pull the plug.

[Clatter]

And 2009 if Honda stayed one more year?

 

We will never know if they would have been as successful without the engine change.

[Goron3]

What exactly has Merc to think about 2022 engine-wise? If anything it's the other way around: since Honda is not there in 2022 they might be less likely to keep develop later in the year.

I can see Red Bull getting closer, especially if the floor rule changes hit Merc more. But they had a head start again, so they can probably compensate that.

The final aero regulations were confirmed in late August, by which point most teams started work on the 2021 car. A lot is made of Mercedes not bringing any more developments post Spa but it's worth remembering that the updates Red Bull added in early October would have gone through the summer R&D phase (likely post-Hungary, by which point they had three races of data to fix the aero glitch). 

 

Back on topic.

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing Sergio Perez at a top team. It's an interesting story - when was the last time that the best midfielder got a promotion relatively late in his career to a top team? Sergio has always been excellent on his tyres too - an area which Red Bull struggled relative to Mercedes last year - so hopefully he'll be able to bring something extra.

 

With the season starting in Bahrain, we'll be able to draw an immediate comparison between this year's Red Bull and Honda PU and last year's one. There's been a lot said about how the new regulations will impact a high rake car so I think it's good news that pre-season testing will likely take place at Bahrain, a circuit with lots of slow, tight corners which hurt Red Bull early last year. I think testing at Spain somewhat hid the issues last year.

[Branislav]

And Merc without DAS that will hurt them a little.

[BRG]

Honda will be putting EVERYTHING to clinch the title in her final year

   They are quitting.  They have no interest in ti anymore.  They will just be going through the motions, doing what is necessary and no  more than that.  They certainly won't be spending yet more Yen on an abandoned project.  And as Taran say below...:

 

I think you have never experienced a project ending (prematurely)? Because it never sees everyone involved putting in extra effort to go out with a bang. Instead, everyone is focused on their next job/assignment with the the brightest ones jumping ship first, leaving the mediocre time-servers behind....

 

[Branislav]

   They are quitting.  They have no interest in ti anymore.  They will just be going through the motions, doing what is necessary and no  more than that.  They certainly won't be spending yet more Yen on an abandoned project.  And as Taran say below...:

 

 

Man, money is already poured in new engine

[Kao18]

And Merc without DAS that will hurt them a little.

No DAS, no qualy modes, a brand new 2022 engine and a fast teammate that will give them strategic options, This will be the year ;)

[Requiem84]

Interesting to see how much No DAS willl hurt Mercedes.

[JimmyTheFox]

Honda can't change the PU during the season, so what does 'all in' mean for you?

Was there a later announcement I missed that banned in-season development in 2021?

The announcement in 2020 said the opposite, each part can be updated once:

[ARTGP]

Interesting to see how much No DAS willl hurt Mercedes.

 

Didn't they already run without it last season? My understanding is that Mercedes didn't feel that the drivers were able to exploit DAS beyond safetycar tire warmup. They said that the system and it's actuation was too unnatural for the driver to instinctively use it.

Edited by ARTGP, 12 January 2021 - 22:18.

[Clatter]

Didn't they already run without it last season? My understanding is that Mercedes didn't feel that the drivers were able to exploit DAS beyond safetycar tire warmup. They said that the system and it's actuation was too unnatural for the driver to instinctively use it.

 

I know it wasn't there for some races, but didn't think it was removed for all.

[shure]

Was there a later announcement I missed that banned in-season development in 2021?

The announcement in 2020 said the opposite, each part can be updated once:

my understanding is that any changes made before the start of the season are included in that table. So if Honda introduce a new engine a the start, they won’t be allowed a further upgrade later

[HeadFirst]

Shouldn't this all be in a tech thread?

[SenorSjon]

Are we still doing that? Was a bit messy last season to be frank.

[taran]

Man, money is already poured in new engine

 

Yes, previously allocated money will have been spent/will be spent. But corporate headquarters is hardly going to approve the additional funds/resources that such projects require when something unexpected pops up. Simply because, barring miracles, Mercedes will dominate again and Honda winning 1 lucky race or 2 or 3 races on merit will not matter compared to the costs and distraction it will cost as Honda focuses on its EV future. And because Honda said it needed the engineering resources for other projects, those engineers (e.g. the human resources) are focusing on their next assignments as some jobs will be better than others.

 

Broken down to its most simple level, if YOU were told your department would close down in 8 months, would YOU work feverishly in your cubicle on your work hoping it will help you land a plum job later or would YOU spend more time around the water cooler trying to find out which other departments are looking for people and how best to get that job? My experiences tell me productivity takes a nosedive, morale plummets and everyone is looking for a new job. YMMV.

Edited by taran, 13 January 2021 - 08:48.

[RA2]

Red Bull team were spending 350 million in 2019, they will be down to about 200 million with budget cap, travel, drivers and marketing for this year.

That should a good amount for an engine programme.

[WouterF1]

Was there a later announcement I missed that banned in-season development in 2021?

The announcement in 2020 said the opposite, each part can be updated once:

The 1 upgrade allowed during the 2021 season on ICE, TC, MGU-H and oil / fuel has been applied to the 2021 engine during the winter break by each manufacturer.
In 2020, none of that was allowed to be upgraded, so they had to wait until the winter break to apply the 2021 upgrade.

Everyone would prefer to have a strong engine at the first race and not wait with the upgrade until mid-season.

[Branislav]

 

 

"For us, 2021 will be an interesting year. We will have to structure it differently given the introduction of a budget limit. It will be a tremendous challenge with small regulatory changes for this year and an incredible change for the new era of 2022, ”says Wolff.

"The factors that go against us make us more motivated and we try to turn them into factors that go in our favor. We believe that our organization is good. However, we are facing a new challenge, and the organization of the team is mainly focused on 2022, ”he added.

 

In his voice I can feel things not going smoothly

 

Red Bull on the verge to dethrone them. We'll have a new world champion

[Marklar]

you are not used to Toto speak, arent you?

[Branislav]

you are not used to Toto speak, arent you?

I remember what he said this time last year. He doesn't sound that optimistic right now.