36 replies to this topic

[Punisher6]

I posted this in another thread and it has pretty much been ignored, so......

When Senna first started shaking things up in F1, were there people who didn't think he was the real deal? I wasn't a fan back then and things were not the same with the 'net and all (I can hear what everyone around the world thinks instantly). Anyone remember? Did the Euro fans bash him because he was "from America"? Just curious.......

[Gary Grant]

I think you've had so few responses because so few people were fans back then - we're talking 17 years ago now.

As far as I know, Senna was largely ignored until Monaco 1984, when people suddenly started taking notice.

Nobody ever felt that he was a bad driver, because he had been impressive in F3 and testing for Williams, but there was a degree of uncertainty as to just how good he was going to be - until Monaco.....

[kenny]

I remeber Emerson Fittipaldi talking to someone of Mclaren (I think) in 1982-1983, Senna hopped by to have a little talk with Emmo...
When he left, emmo told the person beside him 'You have just seen, someone who will be the best driver ever'...

Senna was already hot stuff in 1983... especially after his test with Williams...

[Gemini]

[i]

Senna was already hot stuff in 1983... especially after his test with Williams... [/B]

Despite the fact the he impressed everybody at Williams they did not sign him. Then he tested for McLaren and did not get signed either. Many people let him slip through their fingers...

Williams took its lesson. Now they sign more drivers than they need at the time(Button/Montoya).

[Williams]

Ron Dennis came the closest to signing Senna at the time. He offered to pay for Senna's drive while he was in F3, in exchange for an option on Senna when he came into Formula One. Senna told him he would accept the "option" if Dennis guaranteed a him paid-up F1 drive, which of course was no option at all but a firm commitment. Chuckling at Senna's audacity, Dennis declined. Of course Senna knew what he was worth and was keeping his F1 options open. Any other F3 driver would have jumped at the offer.

[klipywitz]

BTW,

Senna was not "from America". Perhaps "the Americas" -- is that what you meant? He was Brazilian.

[doohanOK]

Kenny, did Emmo really say that? I hope no one said those words of Jan Magnussen!

regards,
doohanOK.

[BRG]

Senna was highly regarded in the lower formulas, but was seen only as a promising newcomer to F1 - there was none of the hype that we have seen around Button or Montoya. His first seat with Toleman was not thought of as a very good one - perhaps the equivalent of Jaguar today. However, Senna was fortunate that Toleman started to come good that season so he had a car that he could do something with. If the Toleman had been as bad as in previous years, Senna might even have been written off as a failure. Even after good results, it was still only Lotus (who were then maybe the equivalent of Jordan) that signed him for the next year, not one of the big three. It was his efforts in the Lotus that really established him.

I do not remember any adverse comments about his nationality - quite the opposite, at least as far as the British specialist press were concerned anyway. At that time, they tended to see any driver from Brazil as a potential superstar - the legacy of Fittipaldi and Piquet.

[FlagMan]

As one of those who 'was around in those days' - I can distinctly recall the first time I saw this young guy call Ayton da Silva - it was during a practice session for an FF1600 race at Donington Park - I turned to my fellow flag marshal as said - that guy will be World Champion - if he doesn't kill himself first'. It was only about the 3rd lap of practice and he had just overtaken about 6 cars under braking for the short circuit chicane - the final 2 of the 6 by passing them in mid-air

Incidentally - JPM left a somewhat similar impression when he first came to the UK.

[Punisher6]

Originally posted by klipywitz
BTW,

Senna was not "from America". Perhaps "the Americas" -- is that what you meant? He was Brazilian.

Yes, that is what I mean, becasue I've heard Montoya refered to as an American driver. Maybe that is because of the CART title and the Indy victor though.

[Real Estate Queen]

Central and South Americans like to refer to our continent as America, including North America. Some even feel offended when people from the United States refer to their country as America.
That's the way it is and I cannot change it. It is a cultural thing and little can be done about it.
Sorry for this OT comment, but I thought a clarification was needed.

[ForzaF1]

My memories of the reaction to Senna was that he was phenonomly talented but needed to learn patience (the famous incident of his crashing out at Monaco passing a back marker comes to mind) I think most people recognized his incredible talent and realized that he was going to be WDC.

[sennadog93]

He was well recognised as a major talent when he came into F1 with Toleman although maybe the hype was not as much as it would be today.
I remember the battles he had with Martin Brundle in F3 which were well documented in the British press at the time and he was well accepted in this country despite him being foreign and beating Brundle to the title.
As much as I hated him at the time (with a grudging respect - my reaction anyway) he was very good even with an inferior car such as the Toleman and to a lesser extent the Lotus but he did get some flack for some of his aggressive/impatient moves. Generally speaking he was well recieved by all.

[senninha]

I think Senna started to be well known in 1983 at F-3, when the british press knicknamed Silverstone as "Silvastone", in honour to da Silva's (Senna was known as da Silva) bunch of victories there.

In 83, too, there was a famous test with Frank Williams, when Senna broke Donnington record, and collected his first "enemy", the former champion Rosberg (Williams number 1 driver on that time).

In the beginning of 84 season, he collected another enemy: Nelson Piquet (WDC in 83), jeleous about all Senna coverage on brazilian press.

The Senna's second race at Africa was great. Senna finished 6th, without the front part of the car.

After, there was Monaco ... and the rest everybody knows.

[Duck]

An example of Senna's intial brilliance was in the rain at Monaco (1984 I believe). The skies were just puking rain, and he just carved up the field in a rather second-rate Toleman. I believe he was running second when the race was red-flagged. After that, EVERYONE knew, and realized Senna was the Real Deal !

[theMot]

Originally posted by FlagMan
It was only about the 3rd lap of practice and he had just overtaken about 6 cars under braking for the short circuit chicane - the final 2 of the 6 by passing them in mid-air

And i have a 14" Johnson.

[MattFoster]

you must be popular Mot

[Peterson]

You should all read the book "Ayrton Senna-As time goes by" by Christopher Hilton. I´ve read it twice.

It gives you a very good insight in Sennas life i England the early years. And he was very fast. but not an overnight success as we all are looking for these days. For example, he never won the Carting WC even trying a few times some years after he left the carting circus.

He was (according to the book..) rather arrogant about what he was worth. He demanded rather a lot even from the early FF-days.

And his name was actually Ayrton Da Silva. But he changed it to Ayrton Senna after a few years (more details about tahat too in the book..).

Wonder what kind of racing he and Michael would have been involved in had he lived a few years more...

[magic]

interview senna by saward;


'...Determination and aggression are words one associates with Senna, who made enemies from the moment he entered F1 in 1984, scoring championship points in his second race. He walked away from a three-year contract with Toleman to join Lotus, and then won his 16th GP. A year later he refused to have Derek Warwick as his Lotus team mate. He was uncompromising. Nigel Mansell was so incensed that on one occasion he once physically attacked Senna. Nelson Piquet did the same, but his attack was verbal - and it hurt more.

When Senna moved to McLaren he ended up in a bitter rivalry with Alain Prost. Senna doesn't like controversy, but "the fact is that if you are not yourself and do not stick by the values you have, you are no-one. I think I have good values. I try hard to do things right and sometimes I screw it up, but I don't do it deliberately. It is no-one's fault but my own. Sometimes I am induced into situations and I screw up. That is the atmosphere we are in and that is when I go mad. It screws my head. It is a stressful thing to cope with when you know that some of the people are just not worth it. All you want to do is to be away from them. I prefer not to talk to people like that and yet, even if you make life hard for them, they go round and round and round and come back and you have to face them again. It is tough.

"I do not have the ability to really be 100% sure when to give up on them. My nature tells me to try again. You say "People can change, why not?" and the moment you think it's OK, you get a knife in the back.

"In this environment you have to be yourself, stick to your own mind and your own principles. Sometimes you are going to get it wrong, but in the long-term you are bound to be a lot better off. The worst thing is to be undecided because then you are vulnerable."

[FlagMan]

Mot - there is a difference between overtaking 6 cars and getting round the corner - I didn't mention that he failed the latter -seemed too obvious.

Maybe you have spent too long admiring Mr Johnson

[lukywill]

i was very impressed with is racing back when he drove the final of world kart in 1979

senna da silva quiet impressed everybody present at that time at estoril
... we never forgot that name (silva is a very common name in portugal) but we didn´t expect so much of his career



http://www.ayrton-se....ar/infkart.htm
http://web655.petrel...t/sennakart.htm

[vroom-vroom]

Originally posted by Duck
An example of Senna's intial brilliance was in the rain at Monaco (1984 I believe). The skies were just puking rain, and he just carved up the field in a rather second-rate Toleman.

Not to remove anything from Senna, don't forget that that "rather second-rate Toleman" was designed by a certain Rory Byrne...Its chassis was supposed to be excellent but its engine sucked (Hart turbo) - not a big factor in the rain at Monaco, BTW.

[FlagMan]

I always thought turbo engines 'blowed' rather than 'sucked' ....

The Hart turbo may not have been the best engine, but for teams like Toleman it meant the difference between racing and not racing - without it would have Senna got his early F1 drives?

People like Brian Hart and John Judd deserve recognition rather than the contempt that many posters on this BB seem to have for the small guys

Please remember that every sucessful F1 team has to start in a small way - It took Frank Williams several abortive attempts to run F1 teams before he made it - Ron Dennis started as an (allegedly second-rate) mechanic. Even Ferrari started as a small team running Alfa's. Without Toleman would there have been a Benetton team?

Most of the teams that have tried to enter F1 in a big way have found it a lot harder than they imagined and that throwing big money at the problem doesn't always work. (Blue Ovals and green cars spring readily to mind).

[Trenchant]

It's interesting that Fittipaldi supposedly made that comment about Senna.

Especially with this comment on the news page.

Could he be something of an F1 soothsayer?

[Duck]

Vroom-vroom,
The term "second-rate" was not meant to be a slam against Toleman. I would compare Toleman in the mid-eighties to perhaps, Minardi today, and I think everyone would agree that Senna's performance at Monaco in '84 (albeit the rain) was mind-boggling!
My apologies to Mr. Bryne if he is logged-on.

[magic]

toleman-hart?
think of today's arrows-asiatech.
struggling c-team.

[911]

Regarding Toleman in '84:

1) Senna had several options to enter F1, but he chose to go w/ Toleman because he would be the #1 driver and he could influence the team. Also, because he went with a smaller team, the expectations wouldn't be as high as if he were to join, let say's, McLaren.

2) Like all the great drivers, they have the ability to develop a car and enhance its performance. (Schumacher is the same way) Senna was able to make that car quicker and the team became quicker. Then, there was the tire factor. They started the year on Pirellis, but when Toleman switched over to Michelins they became a lot more competitive.

3) Does any remember the Toleman test after the Portuguese GP in 1984? The team had asked Senna if he could set a time during the test so they could use it as a benchmark for their test drivers. The season was over and he didn't have any pressure, so what does Senna do? He puts in a time - on race tires - that would have given him pole position for that weekend's race! He later said that it was the first time all year that he had driven the car at its limits.

911

[Peeko]

I believe he signed with Toleman because they were the only team that agreed to release him if he didn't feel the car was competitive enough.

911, I find it hard to believe Ayrton raced an entire season without pushing his race car to the limits. It's just not Senna.

[Spaman]

What is this the 6th or 7th "next senna" reference in the last 7 years.

There will only be one Senna, period.

Other drivers trying to emulate him on and off track should be referred to as senna/like senna/clones and in probably most cases senna wanna-bes.

[Blue]

Great a new Senna thread

I should not say this, but here we goes......

To my belief Senna was not better driver than Schumi. (Getting worse, hold your breath) And Michail is not better driver (in big margin at least) than DC. DC is not better driver than MH. MH is not better driver (fast like) than Kimi. Kimi is much worse race driver than his team mate. Endless as you see?

Media makes the big difference, by driving you don’t. (Well some exeptions, but only some. And not carer like, more like one great pass kinds)

So back to topic, Senna was probably considered as new Fisi or new Button (or etc).

[Winny]

A couple of things:

Williams had a full driver lineup at the time they offered Senna a test, both parties knew this. When asked why they had still tested AS when they could not possibly give him a drive the following year, Frank Williams' response was "he will be very good, and although we can't sign him now, perhaps one day when we can. he will remember the opportunity that we have given him." Says a lot for both parties really!

AS and Brundle were pretty much on a par that season in F3, the difference being, that when Senna went to F1, he was able to step up a level, as he had done in all the previous levels of racing. He adapted to driving ANYTHING, not just open wheelers - F1, F3 and Karts obviously, but also won the invitational touring car race in 1984 against 10 former F1 World Champions, and was lapping at the same pace as the regular drivers when in the Porsche 956 1000km race in the same year. He always seemed the get the maximum out whatever he was driving.

[Blue]

http://home.pi.net/~nijdame/1993.htm
In 1993 Mika also raced two races in the Porsche Supercup: May 22 at Monaco (Pole position and 1st) and August 15 the Hungaroring (Pole position, fastest lap and 1st !). And that while he had never driven a 911 before, not even a roadgoing one.

[Keith_Jagrs]

Originally posted by Punisher6

I've heard Montoya refered to as an American driver. Maybe that is because of the CART title and the Indy victor though.

Well, when people from spain or latin america talk about "America" meaning the entire continent. From Alaska to Argentina.

En english, when somebody says "America" he/she is talking About the united states of america.

There you go.

[911]

Originally posted by Peeko

911, I find it hard to believe Ayrton raced an entire season without pushing his race car to the limits. It's just not Senna. [/B]

Peeko,

Here's an excerpt from Christopher Hilton's book, "The Hard Edge of Genius."

Alex Hawkridge - "We haven't had a chance to do any (tyre testing) and we want to test some other drivers. Ayrton, will you stay over after Estoril and run the car each day and set a pace? Then we can measure the other drivers." He went out and on his fifth lap he took the lap record apart. He was like a second and a half inside the lap record on the same tyres he'd used in the Grand Prix the day before. He came in and he said, 'This is what I've dreamed about. It's the first time I've driven a Formula One car on the limit' and he was the happiest I'd seen him all year."

So he'd been nursing the Toleman all that time...

"He went out and he had no worries, no responsibilities. If he'd written the car off - it would never happen - but if he had it wouldn't have affected Toleman and it woulnd't have affected him. He blitzed around and made the McLarens look like lemons. He showed what he was capable of." - Alex Hawkridge

Peeko, I know what you mean, though. It really doesn't sound like Senna (not pushing himself to the limit at all times). I first read about that story in 1987 (two years before Hilton's book came out) and I couldn't believe it. Pretty amazing, really.

911

[Peeko]

911, it's still hard to believe, but who am I to say it's not true. Imagine, impressing the whole year without ever pushing the car to its limit. Sounds much like one Kimi Raikkonen.

[Spot]

When the brazilian first ran in F3, I was mightily impressed, and greatly looked forward to his time in F1. However, he then started showing his treu colours when he decided that if he couldn't get in front of Brundle by fair means, he would use foul. I started disliking from that time, and as his attitude and behavious became worse, the more I disliked him.

When he finally got into F1, he and Brundle made a pact that if one of them was in front of the other and struck a problem, he would not get in the way of the other. Guess who broke that pact first, during the FIRST RACE of the season?

Cleu - it wasn't Brundle.

[Billy]

Originally posted by Spot
When he finally got into F1 ...

Ayrton Senna did one season of F3 and was champion, graduating to F1 in 1984 with Toleman. Brundle drove F3 in 1982 and 1983, joining the Tyrrell F1 team in 1984. How was it that a Tyrrell driver and Toleman driver "made a pact"? What happened between them in the Brazilian Grand Prix?