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New Youtube doc about the 1996 Indycar split [split]


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#1 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 18:49

While we wait for the new season to begin in this wonderful month of January we all miss Mickey Mouse around this date. And we ponder. What might have been.

So while we wait in the absence of Mickey we could learn some history instead. To discover the wonderfull world of mid 90s and the happenings on and of race tracks. We could learn that not all is black and not all is white either. We are surrounded with grey. Grey. The color of month of January.

 

Lady and Gentlmen start your Youtubes

 

 



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#2 loki

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 20:09

I wouldn’t consider The Mickyard to be an iconic track.  It hosted only 5 IRL races.  I do give them props for putting an oval in a parking lot and the promotional tie in with the mouse but there’s nothing memorable about it.  It doesn’t have the storied history of some places like Cleveland, Nazareth or even Pocono.  In terms of filling the Jan void I think the Chili Bowl or even the Florida Winter Karting Tour offer more competitive racing than The Mickyard did.



#3 red stick

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 20:27

IRL nostalgia.

I'm just not seeing it.



#4 Risil

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 20:28

Worth having a separate thread for the Youtube doc?



#5 juicy sushi

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 20:42

Well, if someone wants to revisit The Split and the quite insane acrimony from the period (I remember it all too well, sadly) then maybe something in the Nostalgia forum would work?  I just remember how utterly toxic the different message boards were, even for about 6 months after 2009 and the reunion.



#6 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 20:53

I wouldn’t consider The Mickyard to be an iconic track.  It hosted only 5 IRL races.  I do give them props for putting an oval in a parking lot and the promotional tie in with the mouse but there’s nothing memorable about it.  It doesn’t have the storied history of some places like Cleveland, Nazareth or even Pocono.  In terms of filling the Jan void I think the Chili Bowl or even the Florida Winter Karting Tour offer more competitive racing than The Mickyard did.

It was the place where the Dream came true. When a Little Guy got his fair chance after decades and decades of being neglected.

 

Its just like saying that there's nothing memorable about The Nazareth, since only one memorable Guy was ever born there.



#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:09

Isn't your namesake in the resort industry in Vail Colorado? The little guy schtick in racing is for people who don't know better. 



#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:14

It's not a fair chance when the Little Guy goes off to his own Indycar Series, with blackjack, and hookers, and doesn't invite the Big Boys to play.



#9 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:21

Isn't your namesake in the resort industry in Vail Colorado? The little guy schtick in racing is for people who don't know better. 

That day at Walt Disney World Speedway Buddy Lazier was the Little Guy. He ceased to be the Little Guy on May 26th 1996 and became The Legend

 

That was the whole purpose of the IRL to path the way where an outstanding and exceptional driver can became The Legend one day.

 

CART never paved that way. CART paved ways for international superstars,  F1 refugees who were dissatisfied with salary cuts in F1 and came to Indy out of protest.

 

And drank orange juice in front of half a million people who all of them at least once in their life dreamt of drinking milk.


Edited by BiggestBuddyLazierFan, 28 January 2021 - 21:28.


#10 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:25

It's not a fair chance when the Little Guy goes off to his own Indycar Series, with blackjack, and hookers, and doesn't invite the Big Boys to play.

He invited them, But they refused. 25/8 rule was not at all that bad as people want to remember it. Tony George invited all of them to join IRL thus be eligible for 25 spots. But they refused. And even when they refused they still had 8 spots reserved for them. But no they refused it too.

 

Actually it was more than 8 slots because IRL 25 should be in prescribed % of the pole time. If you examine qualifying times you end up with 10 freee spots for CART guys. But no. They elected to run their own race at the same date only to demonstrate to the world how rolling starts are being done by Big Guys.



#11 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:46

He invited them, But they refused. 25/8 rule was not at all that bad as people want to remember it. Tony George invited all of them to join IRL thus be eligible for 25 spots. But they refused. And even when they refused they still had 8 spots reserved for them. But no they refused it too.

 

Actually it was more than 8 slots because IRL 25 should be in prescribed % of the pole time. If you examine qualifying times you end up with 10 freee spots for CART guys. But no. They elected to run their own race at the same date only to demonstrate to the world how rolling starts are being done by Big Guys.

 

Even if that invitation was genuine, it would have simply turned the IRL into CART, and Tony would have achieved nothing. It would also have meant that the CART teams would have had to keep all their 1995 cars for the IRL, meaning the IRL teams wouldn't have had any competitive cars for themselves.

 

So no, Tony specifically didn't want the CART teams in his series, and the 25/8 rule was a clear means of keeping them out of his playground. It wasn't in any way attractive to CART because why would they settle for 8 (or even 10) of them getting into the race when on pace all ~26 of them should have been able to qualify with ease.

 

 

That day at Walt Disney World Speedway Buddy Lazier was the Little Guy. He ceased to be the Little Guy on May 26th 1996 and became The Legend

 

That was the whole purpose of the IRL to path the way where an outstanding and exceptional driver can became The Legend one day.

 

CART never paved that way. CART paved ways for international superstars,  F1 refugees who were dissatisfied with salary cuts in F1 and came to Indy out of protest.

 

And drank orange juice in front of half a million people who all of them at least once in their life dreamt of drinking milk.

 

The irony there being that the 1996 CART championship was a 3-way showdown between American drivers. 



#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:58

A reminder on one of the forum rules:

 

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and the RC house rules:

 

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#13 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:59

Worth having a separate thread for the Youtube doc?

worth splitting the topic for a youtube about a split :D



#14 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 21:59

 

 

So no, Tony specifically didn't want the CART teams in his series, and the 25/8 rule was a clear means of keeping them out of his playground. It wasn't in any way attractive to CART because why would they settle for 8 (or even 10) of them getting into the race when on pace all ~26 of them should have been able to qualify with ease.

 

 

 

If Tony didnt want CART teams in the series than why he created a calendar that does not interfere with CART calendar?

 

One might think that would be more efficiant way. Because afterall three CART teams:  Walker Racing, Galles Racing International and Dellapenna Racing Team all "sneaked in" but... people tend to forget
 



#15 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:04

 

A reminder on one of the forum rules:

 

  • We welcome you contacting us with feedback. However, the way the forums are run or the actions of the moderation team are not topics to be debated in public. Any such posts will be removed.

and the RC house rules:

 

  • You may not use this forum to complain about events in other forums. They have nothing to do with us.

 

I just wanted to let people know that a long time CART advocate and our dear firend is alive and well and there is no need to be worried about his wellbeing. Because I have heard that people think he is gone since his last post on TNF was 10 years ago. I would however love to see him back dearly. Because he is a true well of Indycar information. And a treasure for any forum that he participates in.



#16 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:07

If Tony didnt want CART teams in the series than why he created a calendar that does not interfere with CART calendar?

 

One might think that would be more efficiant way. Because afterall three CART teams:  Walker Racing, Galles Racing International and Dellapenna Racing Team all "sneaked in" but... people tend to forget
 

 

If he wanted the CART teams he wouldn't have created the IRL in the first place. Obviously.



#17 Viryfan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:13

If he wanted the CART teams he wouldn't have created the IRL in the first place. Obviously.

 

Not true, imho.

 

IMS just wanted to have more control on their own events.

 

The precarious peace in the middle of 80's was gone when Pat Patrick tried to be smarter than anybody else and sent an Illmor engine at Alfa Romeo.

 

From then on the thing went out of control as Penske decided to lease the engine instead of selling them limiting the supply for the engine of choice.

 

We can also add the way Porsche was shafted in 1990 with their chassis and last minute rule change.

 

CART was dysfunctional and people in the board had none of it


Edited by Viryfan, 28 January 2021 - 22:15.


#18 absinthedude

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:49

It was an awful time and US open wheel racing has never really recovered. Tony George may have talked about wanting to reduce the budget to help the "little guy" and making his series more "all American" but really what he wanted was control. He wanted something akin to what USAC had with the "national championship" prior to CART's rise. 

 

Porsche was shafted? I thought they built an all carbon-fibre chassis fully knowing the rules didn't permit one until 1991....requested a rule change and were denied special dispensation to run their illegal car. Unless I am remembering incorrectly, which is possible. 

 

CART was successful and had gained the attention of European fans - a first for US oval based racing. But Tony George preferred "home grown good old American" racing and wanted to impose his vision. By effectively removing ability to compete in the Indy 500 from the CART teams he knew he'd eventually weaken CART to the point where it was not viable. Because whatever CART had in the US 500, the more professional teams, the better quality international drivers....it didn't have the jewel in the crown.....It took a few years but what we ended up with was two weak series. Even now, it's nowhere near as successful in any terms than CART was in the early to mid 90s. The whole affair was shameful.



#19 Jim Thurman

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:51

A series created with the mantra of: "We lost Jeff, we can't lose Tony" just to make certain Tony Stewart got a chance at Indy, and that he'd be a superstar in the series by having every advantage above and beyond all the other "little guys" via chassis and tire testing and by being placed with the best funded team.

 

PAYR, love the "Futurama" reference  :)  :up:



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#20 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:55

Not true, imho.


 

From then on the thing went out of control as Penske decided to lease the engine instead of selling them limiting the supply for the engine of choice.

 

Exactly. And not only that. Penske choosed which teams he will lease engines to. Talking about not inviting Big Boys to the party. Toger started it with his private engines. Nobody had a chance with Cosworth. We have 1989 watch party going on. People will learn how dominant Roger Penske's Ilmor built Chevrolets were. And nobody apart from Partick and Galles could lease it, because Roger wouldn't let them.



#21 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 22:59

 

 

Porsche was shafted? I thought they built an all carbon-fibre chassis fully knowing the rules didn't permit one until 1991....requested a rule change and were denied special dispensation to run their illegal car. Unless I am remembering incorrectly, which is possible. 

 

No, they were forced to completely redesign the chassis. And redesigned chassis was uncompetitive so they quit after 1990.
 



#22 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:02

CART in the early to mid 90s hit such a sweet spot. The whole debacle still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It was better racing than F1, far more entertaining and compelling and boasted a star studded driver line up (established stars and young guns) and a brilliant, diverse set of tracks/ovals in the calendar. It had everything and the international attention it was capturing was for good reason. The Mansell effect absolutely enhanced things overnight but the seeds were already there.

Early to mid 90s it was a true rival to Formula 1. When Senna died - if anything - Formula 1 was suddenly looking rather bland and boring in comparison, I certainly felt that way during the period. CART had superstars everywhere. Tough, hard charging racers and brilliant cars.

#23 ensign14

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:09

It was weird that the whole split started when CART had more superstars than F1.  Bit like when sportscar racing was Jag v Porsche v Mercedes, and then suddenly turned into Interserie.

 

Missing an opportunity here btw...

 

New Youtube doc about the 1996 Indycar split [split]

 

 

...could take out the first split and it would still make sense.



#24 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:13

CART in the early to mid 90s hit such a sweet spot. The whole debacle still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It was better racing than F1, far more entertaining and compelling and boasted a star studded driver line up (established stars and young guns) and a brilliant, diverse set of tracks/ovals in the calendar. It had everything and the international attention it was capturing was for good reason. The Mansell effect absolutely enhanced things overnight but the seeds were already there.

Early to mid 90s it was a true rival to Formula 1. When Senna died - if anything - Formula 1 was suddenly looking rather bland and boring in comparison, I certainly felt that way during the period. CART had superstars everywhere. Tough, hard charging racers and brilliant cars.

that is absolutely true.

 

But. There is other side of the medal too. Because of international superstars young and talented domestic drivers couldnt find a ride. And the problem goes much much further.

 

Actually if you dig deep enough you could trace of the main problem way back to Jack Brabham in the 60s. Jack Brabham was the first to bring rear engined car to Indy. And in the matter of years all cars were rear engined. Problem is the ladder consisted of front engined cars. Sprints and midgets. You can not expect a driver to develop in a series with front engined cars and expect him to perform at the top level in rear engined cars. The mistake was made by USAC in 70s for not adopting rear engine model in the ladder series too. Thats why american drivers were weak in comparison to european drivers. And thats why naturally the highly competitive CART teams started to hire drivers that grew up in european ladder; Emerson, Guerrero, Boesel, even Sullivan honed his skills in England. And than the 90s came with the flood of F1 refugees Mansell, Zanardi, Blundell, Gugelmin, Fittipaldi Christian, DeFerran...



#25 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:18

It was weird that the whole split started when CART had more superstars than F1.  Bit like when sportscar racing was Jag v Porsche v Mercedes, and then suddenly turned into Interserie.

 

Missing an opportunity here btw...

 

 

 

Bernie happened to sportscar racing. When he convinced Max Mosley that Group C should run F1 engines. It all became too expensive and they folded.

 

One could see who profited the most

 

Also there is a rumor that Bernie was supporting George in forming IRL. Because he knew that the split would weaken his main rival Indycar



#26 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:39

Also there is a rumor that Bernie was supporting George in forming IRL. Because he knew that the split would weaken his main rival Indycar

This has certainly been alluded to a number of times. Bernies product wasn't exactly sparkling with brilliant racing and compelling viewing post Senna... The 1994/95 F1 grids didn't scream "box office" and he knew it.

#27 Viryfan

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:52

Exactly. And not only that. Penske choosed which teams he will lease engines to. Talking about not inviting Big Boys to the party. Toger started it with his private engines. Nobody had a chance with Cosworth. We have 1989 watch party going on. People will learn how dominant Roger Penske's Ilmor built Chevrolets were. And nobody apart from Partick and Galles could lease it, because Roger wouldn't let them.

 

http://8w.forix.com/...-pc23-1991.html

http://8w.forix.com/...ions.html#ILMOR

 

Those two article helps to understand deep down why the split had to happen and IMS needed to intervene.

 

In youtube you can find report on qualy days about indy 500 which were quite critical about the evolution of CART in 1991 by David Despain.

 

CART in early 90's was already dysfunctional but they had big money so they did not care.


Edited by Viryfan, 28 January 2021 - 23:55.


#28 ensign14

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Posted 28 January 2021 - 23:58

that is absolutely true.

 

But. There is other side of the medal too. Because of international superstars young and talented domestic drivers couldnt find a ride. And the problem goes much much further.

In which case the thing to do was for TG to sponsor a couple of them into decent Indycar drives. 

 

Or persuade USAC to ditch the front-engined sprintcars that are much better to guide drivers into a NASCAR career than an Indycar career.  There's a reason the best US drivers in 1980 were the same as the best US drivers in 1970.  They'd all gone from front to rear together at the same time as everyone else.  The guys who should have replaced them, the Bigelows and Sniders, had been learning how to drive something completely different.

 

The exceptions were Mears, who had not done the sprintcar thing and had been weaned on rear engines, and Sneva, who had driven a rear-engined sprintcar before the Precambrians at USAC banned it.



#29 dutra

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 00:07

Really cool videos.



#30 jonpollak

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 00:07

Someone post the ESPN Split doc with BSquared in it.

That's the original passion.

 

Speaking of which...

tonytweet.jpg

 

Jp


Edited by jonpollak, 29 January 2021 - 00:13.


#31 Myrvold

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 00:10

The irony there being that the 1996 CART championship was a 3-way showdown between American drivers. 

 

I was very young at the time, but being a JV-fan I've watched stuff many many years later.

Wasn't 1994 a season with quite a few north-American drivers at the top? And 95 was an all out US/Canadian dominance? And it's not like Villeneuve, Gordon, Tracy, Vasser was old-guys, certainly not in relation to the age of mid 90's drivers and not US open-wheeler drivers.

 

This is from an European guy who have watched things 15 years after it all happened, but the whole "American drivers" thing seems to be like an overreaction on Mansell/Mansell-Fittipaldi in 93? As there was quite a few US and Canadian drivers in the field, and at the top the years before and after? It wasn't until after the split that ChampCar got very international?


Edited by Myrvold, 29 January 2021 - 00:13.


#32 loki

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 01:11

It was the place where the Dream came true. When a Little Guy got his fair chance after decades and decades of being neglected.

 

Its just like saying that there's nothing memorable about The Nazareth, since only one memorable Guy was ever born there.

Marco was born in Nazareth.  Is he the guy?

 

There’s certainly nothing memorable about Lazier’s career particularly during his CART stint.  The IRL had a weak field of underfunded teams and he was able to capitalize on it. 



#33 loki

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 01:32

If Tony didnt want CART teams in the series than why he created a calendar that does not interfere with CART calendar?

 

He didn’t schedule against them because other than the 500 it was a losing proposition.

 

Not true, imho.

 

IMS just wanted to have more control on their own events.

 

IMS always called the shots with regards to the 500.  That’s the only event the Hulmans owned.  The Hulmans had no equity stake in any other races or CART.  George wanted more say in what happened in the rest of the series but the other owners, at least the ones with the most power, didn’t think too highly of him.  Given descriptions in court filings of his behavior and others observations I don’t blame them at the time.  It doesn’t appear that on a personal level this was a good time for him.



#34 juicy sushi

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 01:38

A series created with the mantra of: "We lost Jeff, we can't lose Tony" just to make certain Tony Stewart got a chance at Indy, and that he'd be a superstar in the series by having every advantage above and beyond all the other "little guys" via chassis and tire testing and by being placed with the best funded team.

PAYR, love the "Futurama" reference :) :up:

They also were cheating constantly but USAC lacked the intellectual capacity to catch them.

#35 juicy sushi

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 01:48

I was very young at the time, but being a JV-fan I've watched stuff many many years later.
Wasn't 1994 a season with quite a few north-American drivers at the top? And 95 was an all out US/Canadian dominance? And it's not like Villeneuve, Gordon, Tracy, Vasser was old-guys, certainly not in relation to the age of mid 90's drivers and not US open-wheeler drivers.

This is from an European guy who have watched things 15 years after it all happened, but the whole "American drivers" thing seems to be like an overreaction on Mansell/Mansell-Fittipaldi in 93? As there was quite a few US and Canadian drivers in the field, and at the top the years before and after? It wasn't until after the split that ChampCar got very international?

It was always international in the sense that some European drivers came, and sometimes did well (Teo Fabi in the early 80s) for example. The Speedway and USAC yes men resented that the people paying the bills and taking the risks had demanded to be paid and run the series beyond Indy properly. Hence Gurney’s White Paper. The owners running the show did degenerate into a war of self-interest. But it was still better run than any time prior, and was working pretty well. Tony wasn’t part of the group, had bad advice (from AJ, Bill France, and Bernie), was treated badly, and burned the whole thing to the ground. The little guys never mattered. They were little because they were back markers. But they were useful pawns to hide behind.

#36 Collombin

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 06:32

you could trace of the main problem way back to Jack Brabham in the 60s. Jack Brabham was the first to bring rear engined car to Indy. And in the matter of years all cars were rear engined


Hmm. Quite apart from the pedantic point that Brabham missed out on that by 24 years, I would trace the real start of the rear engined revolution to 1963 and the Lotus efforts. The Cooper wasn't even the only rear engined car at the track in 1961, and it's not as if everyone started copying the idea, as a quick glance at the 1962 & 1963 entries will confirm. I never got the impression that Chapman's interest had much to do with what the Cooper had done either. All OT I know, sorry.

Edited by Collombin, 29 January 2021 - 06:33.


#37 Ali_G

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 08:01

Wasn’t it the France family who had Tony’s ear and basically got him in the end to go ahead with it.

NASCAR was the biggest beneficiaries by far from this shot show. Open wheel racing in the US will never recover to what it was.

#38 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 09:17

If Tony didnt want CART teams in the series than why he created a calendar that does not interfere with CART calendar?
 
One might think that would be more efficiant way. Because afterall three CART teams:  Walker Racing, Galles Racing International and Dellapenna Racing Team all "sneaked in" but... people tend to forget



A few points.

IF CART had felt enough welcome as TG said they were and accepted the invitations to race the IRL events and make sure they would be in the preferred 25, what would that have caused?
First: the teams would have retained all their ’95 and ’94 hardware: none of this would have been available to the IRL teams as what eventually happened with a number of these cars. Which leaves the question what kind of hardware the IRL teams then would have used instead: even more of the still surviving pre- 1994 cars than what happened eventually?
And then these teams with that old stuff take on the CART teams with their more modern hardware and their experience with this hardware from the year before?
What would have been left from TG’s dream to give Indy back to the little guys? What whould have been needed to give these little teams a decent chance against the CART Teams and fulfill his promises? All that it would have resulted into was what the documentary ssuggests: Had CART given in then at least he would have them back at the Speedway but from then on with more control and way more on his terms than ever before. But then he had to postpone and work out another plan to break their power and help the little guys.
Fortunately for IRL, some CART teams still needed the money to be earned with selling off older cars. Had all the CART teams retained their ’95 Lola’s & ’95 Reynards (and the near identical ’94 Reynards) then only Menard, Foyt, Hemelgarn and Simon Racing would have had ’95 origin chassis, everyone else was obliged to use ’94 and/or older cars. There were a few ‘94’s in other hands already, Treadway’s ‘94 Reynard that eventually became the all time fastest car ever at Indy among them.
To see his plan to help the little guys get it all, TG couldn’t use CART to begin with. At least as long as the new atmo cars were not built yet, he needed CART to release their hardware he heeded for his preffered kind of teams. I can’t comprehend how the ’96 starting field would have looked like car-wise had those CART released ’95 and ’94 chassis not been available to IRL….
Had CART not bowed out on their own in 1996, he would have needed to do something else to bother them one way or another in order to give the little guys the chance he had promised them.


BTW: Dellapenna ran only three CART events in '96 using their IRL car. Does that qualify them enough for you to humiliate them to be ` a CART team` ????

 

 

 

Edit:  I must add to this that I don't deny the fact that things and certain trends within CART were wrong and lead to unwanted situations. I certainly won't support the thoughts that CART was the way to go as it did. But back then I didn't believe a split and either of the directions taken was the way to go and History has proven this to be the case.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 29 January 2021 - 10:48.


#39 Imperial

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 10:12

I just remember how utterly toxic the different message boards were, even for about 6 months after 2009 and the reunion.


Wasn't there a crapwagons.com or something in the early 2000s??

Only on the internet would the time a person invests in their hobby being on a thing they hate.

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#40 noriaki

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 10:37

 

 

But. There is other side of the medal too. Because of international superstars young and talented domestic drivers couldnt find a ride. And the problem goes much much further.

 

This is simply untrue. Until CART began leaking in 2000 due to the lack of an Indy 500, there were over 10 domestic drivers having full time rides in the series at all times and new American rookies could get rides every year. Name one who didn't? Ross Cheever perhaps (going solely by his credentials in the Nippons), any others? Even Lazier got around 70 races in CART, just without impressing too much in most of them. 

 

Yeah someone like Jeff Gordon did not get a ride in CART, but he does not count because he did not even try - dude just expected to walk into a decent CART ride with his sprint/midget credentials, without any experience Indy Lights or Atlantics. But somehow Gordon didn't expect to land a ride in the Cup series without having any credentials in the lower tiers of Nascar...


Edited by noriaki, 29 January 2021 - 10:39.


#41 ensign14

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 10:56

Yeah someone like Jeff Gordon did not get a ride in CART, but he does not count because he did not even try - dude just expected to walk into a decent CART ride with his sprint/midget credentials, without any experience Indy Lights or Atlantics.

That seemed to be the point though.  George had raced in midgets and seemed to want to go back to the 1950s when someone with spridget credentials could walk into a Championship ride.  Hence the overtures to Steve Kinser and Jack Hewitt.  Who were both hopeless in rear-engined cars.  And that's not a knock on them, they were obviously racers, Kinser won in IROC for instance.  But it was like expecting Ian Botham to be a baseball superstar.



#42 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 11:09

A few points.

IF CART had felt enough welcome as TG said they were and accepted the invitations to race the IRL events and make sure they would be in the preferred 25, what would that have caused?
First: the teams would have retained all their ’95 and ’94 hardware: none of this would have been available to the IRL teams as what eventually happened with a number of these cars. Which leaves the question what kind of hardware the IRL teams then would have used instead: even more of the still surviving pre- 1994 cars than what happened eventually?
And then these teams with that old stuff take on the CART teams with their more modern hardware and their experience with this hardware from the year before?
What would have been left from TG’s dream to give Indy back to the little guys? What whould have been needed to give these little teams a decent chance against the CART Teams and fulfill his promises? All that it would have resulted into was what the documentary ssuggests: Had CART given in then at least he would have them back at the Speedway but from then on with more control and way more on his terms than ever before. But then he had to postpone and work out another plan to break their power and help the little guys.
Fortunately for IRL, some CART teams still needed the money to be earned with selling off older cars. Had all the CART teams retained their ’95 Lola’s & ’95 Reynards (and the near identical ’94 Reynards) then only Menard, Foyt, Hemelgarn and Simon Racing would have had ’95 origin chassis, everyone else was obliged to use ’94 and/or older cars. There were a few ‘94’s in other hands already, Treadway’s ‘94 Reynard that eventually became the all time fastest car ever at Indy among them.
To see his plan to help the little guys get it all, TG couldn’t use CART to begin with. At least as long as the new atmo cars were not built yet, he needed CART to release their hardware he heeded for his preffered kind of teams. I can’t comprehend how the ’96 starting field would have looked like car-wise had those CART released ’95 and ’94 chassis not been available to IRL….
Had CART not bowed out on their own in 1996, he would have needed to do something else to bother them one way or another in order to give the little guys the chance he had promised them.


BTW: Dellapenna ran only three CART events in '96 using their IRL car. Does that qualify them enough for you to humiliate them to be ` a CART team` ????



Edit: I must add to this that I don't deny the fact that things and certain trends within CART were wrong and lead to unwanted situations. I certainly won't support the thoughts that CART was the way to go as it did. But back then I didn't believe a split and either of the directions taken was the way to go and History has proven this to be the case.


Why did you say that I humiliate Dellapenna!?

I always held those three teams (Walker, Galles and Dellapenna) It the highest regard possible, because they were the only teams that did the right thing. Running both series.

#43 Risil

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 11:16

Looking at Walker, Galles and Della Penna's results in CART and IRL, it looks like being competitive running full seasons of both was too much to ask.

 

This is the fundamental point for me: were two parallel open-wheel series sustainable in the US? Not just in 1996 but for the next 20 years.



#44 juicy sushi

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 11:27

Wasn't there a crapwagons.com or something in the early 2000s??

Only on the internet would the time a person invests in their hobby being on a thing they hate.

Yup. But the general bitterness between the fans extended much further than those guys. The Speedvision message boards were horrible for years as people picked a side to defend. And that was essentially neutral ground.

#45 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 11:57

Looking at Walker, Galles and Della Penna's results in CART and IRL, it looks like being competitive running full seasons of both was too much to ask.

This is the fundamental point for me: were two parallel open-wheel series sustainable in the US? Not just in 1996 but for the next 20 years.


Its just simple mathematics. The model that TG created with calendar of 5 IRL races plus 16 CART races gives 21 races

If you look at the CART circa 1999-2000 they already had that much races by themselves

If CART accepted that model, IRL calendar would have never grown beyond 5 races.

#46 Risil

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 12:23

Its just simple mathematics. The model that TG created with calendar of 5 IRL races plus 16 CART races gives 21 races

If you look at the CART circa 1999-2000 they already had that much races by themselves

If CART accepted that model, IRL calendar would have never grown beyond 5 races.

 

What do you base that on? In 1997 there were 8 IRL races and in 1998 there were 11.

 

Besides, that wasn't my whole point. Number of races and calendar dates are one aspect, but you also need different cars, engines and tyres, different mechanics, different test programmes, different drivers.

 

I think your argument is that CART and IRL weren't actually in competition with each other, but I need more evidence before I'll accept that!



#47 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 12:44

Why did you say that I humiliate Dellapenna!?

I always held those three teams (Walker, Galles and Dellapenna) It the highest regard possible, because they were the only teams that did the right thing. Running both series.


Why I did that?

Because of your ever present loathing of everything CART stood for I assumed that you loathed these two CART teams ( Galles & Walker ) that didn't support IRL in the first two events but only came at Indy.
As I know you, I felt it the most likely option that you loathe these two teams because of cherry picking in extremis, going up against such a low quality field and trying to steal away the biggest prize IRL had to offer. Thus being associated with CART is one way for you to humiliate a team.
OK, so I was wrong.

Personally I rate Dellapenna's 3 '96 CART entries as some opportunistic options to make a bit more use of the equipment they otherwise could use for the three '96 IRL season races and that weird 1.5 season '96/'97 in which the races held in '96 were for the old (turbo)cars but in '97 were for the atmos only.

#48 PhilArny80

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 15:23

Thanks for posting these, found them interesting.

 

Remember watching CART in the late 90's with Zanardi, Montoya and Franchitti. Never really understood the history of the 2 indycar series but those videos are good. Look forward to seeing episode 3 next month.



#49 juicy sushi

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 16:02

That was the whole purpose of the IRL to path the way where an outstanding and exceptional driver can became The Legend one day.
 
CART never paved that way. CART paved ways for international superstars,  F1 refugees who were dissatisfied with salary cuts in F1 and came to Indy out of protest.

Ok, this has really been bugging me in the back of my mind.

There were no outstanding or exceptional drivers who emerged from the IRL that would not have achieved the same recognition if the IRL never existed. Nor is the claim that CART didn't give opportunities for American drivers correct. Bobby Rahal, Michael Andretti, and Al Unser Jr. were the outstanding American talents of their generation, and they got their chance. Scott Pruett also did. Then Bryan Herta, Jimmy Vasser, Robby Gordon, and Paul Tracy got their shots. The IRL did not provide that. Tony Stewart got his chance to win Indy, didn't, and then went to the taxi cabs to make a living. Arguably the only good driver to emerge from the IRL that was going missing otherwise was a certain Swede by the name of Kenny Brack.

Not liking Emmo because he chose orange juice over milk is fine. Trying to make a fictitious argument that the IRL was giving chances to deserving people who didn't otherwise get them is specious.



#50 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 16:33

Ok, this has really been bugging me in the back of my mind.

There were no outstanding or exceptional drivers who emerged from the IRL that would not have achieved the same recognition if the IRL never existed. Nor is the claim that CART didn't give opportunities for American drivers correct. Bobby Rahal, Michael Andretti, and Al Unser Jr. were the outstanding American talents of their generation, and they got their chance. Scott Pruett also did. Then Bryan Herta, Jimmy Vasser, Robby Gordon, and Paul Tracy got their shots. The IRL did not provide that. Tony Stewart got his chance to win Indy, didn't, and then went to the taxi cabs to make a living. Arguably the only good driver to emerge from the IRL that was going missing otherwise was a certain Swede by the name of Kenny Brack.

Not liking Emmo because he chose orange juice over milk is fine. Trying to make a fictitious argument that the IRL was giving chances to deserving people who didn't otherwise get them is specious.

 

How about Sam Hornish? It's hard to say where he'd have ended up without the split because he was only just starting racing in 1996. He also came up through a fairly modern single-seater progression typical of most of his peers. He wasn't the sprints and midgets driver that Tony wanted.

 

Of course, he went to NASCAR just as the reunification happened, but really, most of the big guys were in the IRL by 2004 and he still won a championship against them.