236 replies to this topic

[Brawn BGP 001]

Wider pit lane, removal of grass where Ricciardo tore of his wing (could increase speed limit)

Track resurfaced for the first time since 1996

Changes to turn 3, 6 and 13, mentions of widening corners to try to allow overtaking.

 

These were all planned for 2022 but delayed race allows them to do it in 2021.

https://www.speedcaf...-remodel-plans/

 

[JoshKing]

If I remember correctly, the speed limit is currently 60kph, right? That surprises me, I don't know if that's because its a street circuit or what. The normal speed limit of 80kph should be what they change it to if you ask me.

As for the corner widening, T3 and T13 I can understand, but I don't really see the point in T6 being widened - it's not a typical overtaking spot.

The resurface - sure whatever, that's fine.

Edited by JoshKing, 30 January 2021 - 19:49.

[Dutchrudder]

Seems like a track where a few changes could make it really good for overtaking. Let’s hope it works.

[LucaP]

To be honest I've never understood how widening of tracks makes overtaking easier 

Ok, there are some borderline cases (Montecarlo) but generally it's not that cars can't fit next to each other.

 

You can make the track 90-meters wide, but the ideal line is still going to be 2 metres wide unless other factors such as banking etc come into play.

 

Actually, widening a corner makes the racing line around it faster, therefore requiring less braking and consequently less conductive to overtaking?

 

I don't understand   

Edited by LucaP, 30 January 2021 - 20:59.

[TauriJ]

I like that they're talking about banking some of the corners.

Edited by TauriJ, 31 January 2021 - 08:47.

[Risil]

To be honest I've never understood how widening of tracks makes overtaking easier 
Ok, there are some borderline cases (Montecarlo) but generally it's not that cars can't fit next to each other.
 
You can make the track 90-meters wide, but the ideal line is still going to be 2 metres wide unless other factors such as banking etc come into play.
 
Actually, widening a corner makes the racing line around it faster, therefore requiring less braking and consequently less conductive to overtaking?
 
I don't understand   

 

Widening the exit of the corner before the overtaking spot would help.

[Francesc]

So that's all the bumps that added a challenge to this track now gone...

[Ali_G]

To be honest I've never understood how widening of tracks makes overtaking easier
Ok, there are some borderline cases (Montecarlo) but generally it's not that cars can't fit next to each other.

You can make the track 90-meters wide, but the ideal line is still going to be 2 metres wide unless other factors such as banking etc come into play.

Actually, widening a corner makes the racing line around it faster, therefore requiring less braking and consequently less conductive to overtaking?

I don't understand

Never really understood this.

I remember Gary Anderson replaced Scarbs as the Autosport tech person. His main comments on the cars being widened was that it would reduce passing because there’s be less space. Couldn’t believe what I was reading.

[ANF]

I have the feeling that the widening of Virage du Pont, the tight final corner at Paul Ricard, has made overtaking easier. As the track widens there's simply more room to dive down the inside and make a block pass.

[azza200]

So that's all the bumps that added a challenge to this track now gone...

 

yeah because a majority of the drivers are babys who complain about everything nowadays "waaaaaah its wet its undrivable" or "waaah waaah too bumpy i cant control the car" the woke generation of F1 drivers

[noikeee]

I think there's a marginal gain in overtaking in widening the tracks because it becomes a little harder to block a pass completely laterally, as well as possibly allowing a larger range of alternate lines, but surely it's only marginal and not a huge factor. The big factors are how long the straights are, how long the braking zone, and do the preceding corners before the straight allow following a car closely - without either losing too much downforce neither getting too bogged down by concertina effect.

Edited by noikeee, 31 January 2021 - 15:32.

[azza200]

regarding track changes Spain posted a pic yesterday of turn 10 going back to how it was previously and people moaning they have ruined the track some clearly not knowing that was the original turn 10. Though they do need to remove that last chicane 

[PayasYouRace]

I'm curious about how much change they'll be able to make given that it's mostly public roads anyway.

[ARTGP]

Never really understood this.

I remember Gary Anderson replaced Scarbs as the Autosport tech person. His main comments on the cars being widened was that it would reduce passing because there’s be less space. Couldn’t believe what I was reading.

 

 

This isn't wrong though....We used to see cars taking the grand hotel hairpin in Monaco side by side on occasion (Think '05 - '08) size cars. Now that is virtually impossible, the cars are so long and wide that's it's single file now.  Monaco is the worst it's ever been.

Edited by ARTGP, 31 January 2021 - 17:24.

[ARTGP]

I like that they're talking about banking some of the corners.

 

Bring on the banking. Banking helps following as you rely less on downforce to make the corner.

Edited by ARTGP, 31 January 2021 - 17:25.

[cpbell]

To be honest I've never understood how widening of tracks makes overtaking easier 

Ok, there are some borderline cases (Montecarlo) but generally it's not that cars can't fit next to each other.

 

You can make the track 90-meters wide, but the ideal line is still going to be 2 metres wide unless other factors such as banking etc come into play.

 

Actually, widening a corner makes the racing line around it faster, therefore requiring less braking and consequently less conductive to overtaking?

 

I don't understand   

Same here.

[RA2]

Just for a year they should remove 9 and 10 and make 11 tighter

 

They could take 13 a bit further but I guess that is a major change which has done such a good job in construction and maintenance of the track that the original surface has lasted 25 years

Edited by RA2, 31 January 2021 - 17:44.

[ARTGP]

To be honest I've never understood how widening of tracks makes overtaking easier 

Ok, there are some borderline cases (Montecarlo) but generally it's not that cars can't fit next to each other.

 

You can make the track 90-meters wide, but the ideal line is still going to be 2 metres wide unless other factors such as banking etc come into play.

 

Actually, widening a corner makes the racing line around it faster, therefore requiring less braking and consequently less conductive to overtaking?

 

I don't understand   

 

 

Sepang always produced interesting lines and opportunities with all of the wide hairpins.  Perhaps width alone is not the answer. Just in the right places. Cota turn 1 is always interesting being the size of a carpark.

Edited by ARTGP, 31 January 2021 - 17:54.

[TomNokoe]

1.

 

 

Use the tighter variant of T4. I think it would be easier to follow as it would be an acceleration zone and therefore slower speeds. This would provide more on-throttle and slipstream through T5 into T6.

 

or

 

Square-off existing T4 so it becomes a 90° left instead of a sweeping curve.

 

2.

 

 

Again can be squared-off into a 90° right

 

or

 

Can maybe open up the entry slightly

 

3.

 

 

Skip the chicane entirely, easy flat

 

4.

 

 

If they skip the previous chicane, the approach speeds into here would be crazy.

 

The corner profile can be flattened slightly, but I doubt it would help as we're already carrying serious speed.

 

Therefore it's a decision as to whether or not you want to slow down the entry and make the preceding straight a DRS zone, or slow down the exit so it's slightly easier to follow. Or both.

 

5.

 

This is the most interesting option and has been discussed before.

 

You can extend the straight by roughly 200m, miss the existing turn 13 and brake into a very slow hairpin, and then a longer run through existing T14 and into the penultimate corner. Although they may need a little bit of construction to join up Village Green Drive, Hockey Drive and Aughtie Drive.

 

[PayasYouRace]

1.

 

 

Use the tighter variant of T4. I think it would be easier to follow as it would be an acceleration zone and therefore slower speeds. This would provide more on-throttle and slipstream through T5 into T6.

 

or

 

Square-off existing T4 so it becomes a 90° left instead of a sweeping curve.

 

2.

 

 

Again can be squared-off into a 90° right

 

or

 

Can maybe open up the entry slightly

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. What do you mean by the tighter variant of T4? T4 is the 90 degree corner at the top of the picture, in the middle of the car park.

 

 

 

2. The track isn't where your red line is. It's the road going up the middle.

[Dolph]

To be honest I've never understood how widening of tracks makes overtaking easier 

Ok, there are some borderline cases (Montecarlo) but generally it's not that cars can't fit next to each other.

 

You can make the track 90-meters wide, but the ideal line is still going to be 2 metres wide unless other factors such as banking etc come into play.

 

Actually, widening a corner makes the racing line around it faster, therefore requiring less braking and consequently less conductive to overtaking?

 

I don't understand   

 

 

A wider track around the corner allows for cars to take different lines around the corner that are not so much more worse than the ideal racing line. You can go slow in fast out or fast in slow out to make an overtake happen. Switchbacks etc. In some corners cars can go side by side. It gives you so many more options.

Edited by Dolph, 31 January 2021 - 21:37.

[Dolph]

I'm curious about how much change they'll be able to make given that it's mostly public roads anyway.

 

Who do you expect to complain if the road is made wider?

[PayasYouRace]

Who do you expect to complain if the road is made wider?

It’s not that but rather that any changes need to work with the surrounding park and still need to be suitable for everyday use.

[loki]

Who do you expect to complain if the road is made wider?

Verstappen...

 

I’m OK with the track changes.  I just hope the pandemic is handled well enough to be able to have a race there.

[alainsfoot]

1.

 

 

Use the tighter variant of T4. I think it would be easier to follow as it would be an acceleration zone and therefore slower speeds. This would provide more on-throttle and slipstream through T5 into T6.

 

or

 

Square-off existing T4 so it becomes a 90° left instead of a sweeping curve.

 

2.

 

 

Again can be squared-off into a 90° right

 

or

 

Can maybe open up the entry slightly

 

3.

 

 

Skip the chicane entirely, easy flat

 

4.

 

 

If they skip the previous chicane, the approach speeds into here would be crazy.

 

The corner profile can be flattened slightly, but I doubt it would help as we're already carrying serious speed.

 

Therefore it's a decision as to whether or not you want to slow down the entry and make the preceding straight a DRS zone, or slow down the exit so it's slightly easier to follow. Or both.

 

5.

 

This is the most interesting option and has been discussed before.

 

You can extend the straight by roughly 200m, miss the existing turn 13 and brake into a very slow hairpin, and then a longer run through existing T14 and into the penultimate corner. Although they may need a little bit of construction to join up Village Green Drive, Hockey Drive and Aughtie Drive.

i think joe saward talked about the extension of the pit straight.  it would seem a no brainer, but i believe he said that it would involve the destruction of a sporting field and considering the long term political contentiousness of the f1 race (see save albert park group), it might be hard to get through.

Edited by alainsfoot, 01 February 2021 - 05:52.

[cpbell]

What about...

 

T4:

 

 

 

 

 

T6:

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2021 - 15:35.

[Dan333SP]

Wider is better for tracks, but to a point of diminishing returns. Sepang, for instance, was miles wide all the way around and it did sometimes produce good racing, but not always, and it easily could have been a bit narrower without impacting the racing. There's really only one ideal line, but at least being a bit wider gives more room for trying an alternate line and/or making a mistake without going off track. Some tracks are clearly too narrow like Monaco, but Albert Park seems to be about the same width as Montreal and even with the mega-wide cars we have now, there's still enough room for overtaking there. 

[cpbell]

I'd make T14 and T16 slightly more acute as well.  Overall:

 

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2021 - 16:09.

[PayasYouRace]

What about...


T6:

What have you changed there?

[cpbell]

What have you changed there?

Made it more acute - I think the real circuit follows the apex of the road junction more closely, thereby opening the radius slightly.  I've made it narrower to slow the corner slightly, with, perhaps, some widening on the outside on corner exit to take it slightly beyond 90 degrees.  Blue line is where I think the track centre line is at present:

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2021 - 16:00.

[MattK9]

There isnt really much scope to change the circuit massively, but instead refine it. It is a street circuit that is difficult to overtake on and it should retain that feeling.

 

I glad that the article talks about surfacing but not smoothing out all of the bumps. I hope they choose a super grippy abrasive surface that will improve single lap speed but also mean a 2-stop race minimum.

 

As the changes to the circuit to improve overtaking, maybe;

-Turn 5 is currently flat but there is only 1 racing line. Opening up turn 5 so that it is flat with multiple lines. And then straighten the entry to a tighter turn 6. Hopefully not being single file through 5 plus higher speeds into a longer braking zone should encourage overtaking, but it still will be tough to overtake here. Also widening (but tightening) turns 3 and 4 could help the run to turn 6.

-Straighten the entry to turn 3. Also done for safety reasons given the various similar crashes at the corner. Maybe tighten turn 2 or move turn 1/2 back towards the pit lane to extend the run down to turn 3.

-Use the normal road at turns 9/10 (bypass the chicane) and then tighten turn 11. There will be a longer flat run to turn 11 that starts at turn 6.

 

If cars struggle to overtake into the current turns 1 or 3 or 13 then there really is something wrong with the cars and not the circuit. Hopefully that will be improved next year

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think the problem with some of these changes is you lose the ability to have paved areas and access roads behind the barrier? So I like your reprofiled T4 to drive but it might not work for the circuit facilities. 

 

Likewise making some of these corners faster, or increasing the approach speeds(like into the final turn after the good-idea-actually-hairpin) might screw up the safety homologation. Because suddenly you're doing big numbers and have a worse angle on the wall potentially. 

[cpbell]

I think the problem with some of these changes is you lose the ability to have paved areas and access roads behind the barrier? So I like your reprofiled T4 to drive but it might not work for the circuit facilities. 

 

Likewise making some of these corners faster, or increasing the approach speeds(like into the final turn after the good-idea-actually-hairpin) might screw up the safety homologation. Because suddenly you're doing big numbers and have a worse angle on the wall potentially. 

I think the part that runs down Aughtie Drive behind the trees might need to be moved into the car park, but I think the general concept is OK.  My ideas don't involve increasing approach speeds - if anything, the changes around T4 would slow the approach to T6, compensating for the slight reduction in run-off.

[OneLapWonder]

I think the real bottleneck for albert park is T15, the slow left hander at the end. Only one line through there and huge accordeon effect. Open up that corner so it'll be a combination with the final turn and tighten T1 to create a longer braking zone. I reckon that'll help the track more than alterations to T3 and T6.

[ANF]

I think the real bottleneck for albert park is T15, the slow left hander at the end. Only one line through there and huge accordeon effect.

Yes.

and tighten T1 to create a longer braking zone.

Nooooo!
I love the challenge of the fast Turn 1 where so many great drivers have spun out or cut across the grass. And the tiniest of errors can create a drag race down to Turn 3.

[ANF]

How about this for Turn 3? Would a wider and realigned straight between T3 and T4 make it easier to overtake around the outside of T3? With less risk of being forced off the track?
Turn 4 has been tightened to bring the speeds down. Perhaps it's too tight? The track has been widened on the exit but narrows to its current width.
No trees cut down.

[PayasYouRace]

The racing line would be essentially the same. I don't see it making any difference at all.

[cpbell]

How about this for Turn 3? Would a wider and realigned straight between T3 and T4 make it easier to overtake around the outside of T3? With less risk of being forced off the track?
Turn 4 has been tightened to bring the speeds down. Perhaps it's too tight? The track has been widened on the exit but narrows to its current width.
No trees cut down.

That's better than my idea!

[cpbell]

The racing line would be essentially the same. I don't see it making any difference at all.

 

I see what the poster is thinking - wider exit might encourage attempts at overtaking around the outside with a higher percentage chance of not being run wide.  That was the thinking behind my idea - T4 would put cars on the right-hand side of the track under heavy braking into a slow left-hander, thereby enabling someone who took a late apex at T4 to dive up the inside.

Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2021 - 22:33.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Seems like change for the sake of it. Nothing wrong with the circuit as it is.

[cpbell]

Seems like change for the sake of it. Nothing wrong with the circuit as it is.

Except that modern F1 cars cannot overtake there.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Except that modern F1 cars cannot overtake there.

Well that’s a wider issue...these cars are ridiculously large.

 

Slightly tightening or opening some corners at Albert Park will achieve nothing.

[PayasYouRace]

I see what the poster is thinking - wider exit might encourage attempts at overtaking around the outside with a higher percentage chance of not being run wide.  That was the thinking behind my idea - T4 would put cars on the right-hand side of the track under heavy braking into a slow left-hander, thereby enabling someone who took a late apex at T4 to dive up the inside.

I think you’d need much more significant changes than that to have anything like that sort of result.

[cpbell]

Well that’s a wider issue...these cars are ridiculously large.

 

Slightly tightening or opening some corners at Albert Park will achieve nothing.

I agree on the size point.

[krapmeister]

What about...

T4:






T6:

I'd make T14 and T16 slightly more acute as well. Overall:

I think we've found out who Hermann Tilke posts as on the forum

Edited by krapmeister, 02 February 2021 - 01:52.

[Cliff]

How about: We just skip this race completely... indefinitely...

Problem solved!

[Celloman]

Seems like a track where a few changes could make it really good for overtaking. Let’s hope it works.

Not really, the straights are fundamentally too short when taken into account the closest distance modern F1 cars can follow each other out of a corner with the massive dirty air.
 

[jpm2019]

I do not like this track one bit, but for me it is the ultimate F1 season opener. Really miss it. 

[Anja]

The best way to improve Albert Park is to replace it with Adelaide. 

[cpbell]

I think we've found out who Hermann Tilke posts as on the forum

Given that I'd cheerfully drop bombs on at least two of his designs, you're wrong!  Trying to modify Albert Park to increase overtaking is something of an impossibility, but I thought that, using T3 and T4 as is might allow a gap down the inside into a slow T5.  I don't think the occasional slow, technical section is necessarily a bad thing, TBQH - the current cars make them seem worse as they're too heavy and lengthy, which means they don't want to change direction quickly.  See Alonso's demonstration laps in his R35 at Abu Dhabi for evidence - that car made even the worst sequences of one of the tracks I'd eliminate almost acceptable.

Edited by cpbell, 02 February 2021 - 11:26.