18 replies to this topic

[Jager]

Looking at the Le Mans entrants in the 1950's, I see several (mostly French) racing teams used the abbreviation "Ets" at the beginning of their team name. Eg:

 

Ets. Delettrez

Ets. Monopole

Ets. Fiat Dagada

Ets. Savin & Leroy

 

The use of this abbreviation appears to have died out after 1954 and hasn't been seen since. What did 'Ets' mean?

[Stephen W]

Ets. means etablissement which in English is establishment

[Michael Ferner]

Actually, it's établissements...  this is TNF!

[jcbc3]

Was it an equivalent to the use of Messrs in English company names? Which has also died out?

[Vitesse2]

Short for Établissement industriel, defined by Larousse as an 'entreprise, usine, maison de commerce' - enterprise/business, factory, commercial undertaking.

[Dipster]

I think in the UK we would equate Ets to Co. , as in a company relating to a business enterprise.

 

This might not be 100% correct in a legal sense. I believe Lotus used to enter cars under "Lotus Components Ltd.".  The "Ltd" would be similar to Ets too. But, just to confuse you further, I think the French would add "SARL" after the company name to indicate the company's  limited liability, which is what the Ltd is doing in the UK company titles.

 

I do hope this is a little clearer......

[BRG]

I think SA (Societe Anonyme) is the French legal form that corresponds to PLC (public limited company) in the UK, that is a company with limited liability for the share holders.  Maybe Ets is more like a private company or partnership?

[Vitesse2]

I think SA (Societe Anonyme) is the French legal form that corresponds to PLC (public limited company) in the UK, that is a company with limited liability for the share holders.  Maybe Ets is more like a private company or partnership?

Although the distinction between PLCs and Limited Liability Companies was only introduced in 1981. Before that they were all simply described as 'Ltd'.

 

Broadly speaking, PLC is the equivalent of SA in France, while the French SARL is the equivalent to Ltd in the UK or LLC in the USA.

 

Just a guess, but in this case perhaps Ets indicates a business conducted as a partnership?

[Michael Ferner]

We should have a native French speaker answer this, but I think it's more like "company" in English. But, of course, the French also have Cie. (compagnie)!

[Bob Riebe]

We should have a native French speaker answer this, but I think it's more like "company" in English. But, of course, the French also have Cie. (compagnie)!

Isn't it abbreviated GmBH in German?

[Jager]

Thanks everyone for the prompt and interesting replies.

 

My interest was driven by wanting to know more about this Fiat 8V entered by 'Ets. Fiat Dagada' and whether this was a private French entry, an entry by a French Fiat garage/distributor or a quasi-works entry. I can't find any reference to 'Dagada' being a place in France or Italy

 

[Tim Murray]

I believe this car was entered by (or for) Angelo Dagrada of Milan, who later went on to build the Lancia-powered Dagrada Formula Juniors campaigned with some success by Giancarlo Baghetti. I’m guessing the ‘Ets’ would have been the French translation of whatever Dagrada called his company.

Dagrada sports car

https://velocetoday.com/lanciadagrada/

[raceannouncer2003]

I think SA (Societe Anonyme) is the French legal form that corresponds to PLC (public limited company) in the UK, that is a company with limited liability for the share holders.  Maybe Ets is more like a private company or partnership?

 

Don't forget..."S.A.A.E.C.V.B. - Societe Anonyme des Anciennes Establishments des Constructeurs des Voitures en Bois, - with its revolutionary wooden engine!..."

 

Vince H.

[Dipster]

Thanks everyone for the prompt and interesting replies.

 

My interest was driven by wanting to know more about this Fiat 8V entered by 'Ets. Fiat Dagada' and whether this was a private French entry, an entry by a French Fiat garage/distributor or a quasi-works entry. I can't find any reference to 'Dagada' being a place in France or Italy

 

 

 

Think of Ets Fiat Dagada  (or whatever the correct spelling is) as akin to "The Dagada Fiat Company". Your are all familiar, I imagine, with" The Coca Cola Company", no? 

My guess is that Dagada was a Fiat dealer, just as "The Coca Cola company"  is a Coca Cola manufacturer/dealer (I nearly said a Coke dealer there!.....). The title of his company was actually a description of it.

Edited by Dipster, 12 February 2021 - 07:35.

[Michael Ferner]

Yeah, I think Dispter nailed it: it's just a description to differentiate it from a person, while many of the other terms discussed here are legal descriptions. It probably just said Fiat Dagada on the entry form, and the promoter added the "Ets.", instead of an "M." for a person.

 

Isn't it abbreviated GmBH in German?

 

No, a GmbH is a limited company.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 12 February 2021 - 08:07.

[D-Type]

So, it appears to be analogous to entries by "Stirling Moss Ltd" etc

Edited by D-Type, 12 February 2021 - 10:19.

[Doug Nye]

I wouldn't give too much deference to the precision with which the ACO quoted the names of its events' various entrants. We are not quoting from legal documents, nor Government department official documentation here - more a Club with its own habits and customs and practices.  

 

At least the ACO staff were usually more careful than their counterparts at the AC de Champagne, listing such Reims race entrants as 'Steam Motors' - for 'Team Lotus' - or 'Wanderwell' for 'Vanwall' and so on...  

 

'Ets' - I would imagine - was purely a convenient abbreviate form adopted by their paper-shufflers - no doubt accurate in some cases, if completely inaccurate - but unimportantly so - in others.  They knew who they were meaning, "that big Italian bloke's outfit, with the red Fiat-based car...".

 

DCN

[Team Result]

Yeah, I think Dispter nailed it: it's just a description to differentiate it from a person, while many of the other terms discussed here are legal descriptions. It probably just said Fiat Dagada on the entry form, and the promoter added the "Ets.", instead of an "M." for a person.

 

 

No, a GmbH is a limited company.

I agree. Particularly in the fashion industry, the term, 'House of ......" is/was used to indicate a business as opposed to its owner. Eg. House of Dior. 

[philippe7]

We should have a native French speaker answer this,

I'm here !

 

Etablissements was (meaning it is not so common nowadays) just a way to call a business in common language - just like Compagnie, Société, Ateliers, Maison .... and it didn't need to be a partnership, a single owner could have his "Etablissements Pierre Dupont" if it suited him.

 

And there is no legal meaning attached to the name, unlike, as has been said above , terms such as SARL (Société à responsabilité Limitée) , EURL ( Entreprise Unipersonnelle à Responsabilité Limitée), SA (Société Anonyme) , SAS (Société par Actions simplifiée )  and probably some others that escape me right now .....